A really interesting and clearly put opinion on where the left is heading.


Failing the “Leftist” litmus test
By Chris Trotter - November 1, 2023

Chris Trotter is New Zealand’s leading leftwing political commentator, with 30 years of experience writing professionally about New Zealand politics. He now writes regularly for the Democracy Project, producing his column “From the Left”.

LIKE THE WAR in Ukraine, the war in Gaza is serving as a remarkable litmus test for the Left. It is testing its moral compass, its understanding of international law, its grasp of geopolitical realities and, not least, its awareness of what the PR mavens call “the optics”. A substantial portion, even, perhaps, a majority, of the Left is failing all of these tests – badly. That this should be the case points to what would appear to be a dangerous cognitive weakness in contemporary progressivism – and to a West under siege.

The moral and geopolitical confusion over the Russo-Ukrainian War is more readily understood than Israel’s war against Hamas. For the so-called “Tankies”, abandoning the cherished image of the Russian people, Nazism’s destroyers, as the world’s saviours, was an emotional wrench. Rejecting the argument that the Russian Federation’s illegal invasion of Ukraine was a justifiable response to US and Nato provocation proved equally difficult. None of these considerations excused the Tankies’ defence of Russian aggression, but one could at least see where it was coming from.


That is certainly not the case with respect to the devastating pogrom unleashed upon the Jewish inhabitants of Southern Israel by the Jihadist terrorist organisation, Hamas. To encounter its historical equal, it is necessary to travel back in time to the genocidal pogroms set in motion by the antisemitic citizens of the Baltic states in anticipation of the Nazi einsatzgruppen’s arrival in 1941. Here, too, one encounters the same unsparing cruelty, the same savage delight in rape, torture and murder, that characterised the Hamas pogrom of 7 October 2023.

As was the case in 1941, it is quite impossible to look upon the atrocities of 7/10/23 as anything other than a deliberate turning away from all civilised conduct. Unless, that is, one has already been convinced that against the Jews/Israelis any and all crimes are permitted – and justified.

That this was the belief of the Nazis is well-documented. That a burning desire to rid the world of the “Zionist Entity” is equally evident in every act of Arab aggression towards the State of Israel since 1948. The important distinction being that, while Egypt, Syria and Jordan only wanted to drive the Jews into the sea, the Jihadists of Hamas are religiously committed to making sure that every last one of them drowns.

What is it then that permits those who self-identify as leftists to survey the horrors of 7 October 2023 and see only a glorious act of Palestinian resistance? How is it possible for those who cheered on Jacinda Ardern’s “politics of kindness” to absorb all the details of the rape, the torture, the killing – and not respond with fury and disgust?

One possible answer is that they have seen the images of Palestinians shot and killed for daring to oppose the Israeli occupation of Palestine. They have watched, aghast, as Israeli aircraft, Israeli artillery, have pounded the houses and apartment buildings of Gaza to rubble. Seen, also, the tiny victims of such bombardment, and heard the anguished cries of their mothers. “Lex Talionis!”, they cry. “An eye for an eye!”

But the moral vacuity of this position was as obvious to a Galilean rabbi back in 30AD, as it was to a Gujarat lawyer in 1920 who declared that “An eye for an eye will only make the whole world blind”. A leftist who turns her face in fury and disgust from the IDF’s brutality on the West Bank, cannot, either logically or ethically, refrain from doing the same in the face of Hamas’ murderous fanaticism.

That Pro-Palestinian leftists cannot see the deeply cynical purpose behind Hamas’ attack is similarly baffling. Notwithstanding the facts of international law concerning the responsibility of all those exercising state (or state-like) authority to protect their citizens from harm, Hamas committed its atrocities in the certain knowledge that Israel – fulfilling its own legal duty to protect its citizens – would feel compelled to destroy those responsible for organising and committing them. That this would entail air and artillery strikes on Gaza was obvious to the whole world. But, Hamas did not shrink from Israeli retaliation, it welcomed it.

Why? Because it knew that if the IDF was coming after them, then it would also be coming after the apartment buildings, the office blocks, the schools and the hospitals from which it launches its rockets, and under which it locates its storehouses, fuel dumps, arsenals, factories and command centres. Does Hamas know that this is a blatant breach of the Geneva Conventions – a war crime? Of course it does. Doesn’t it care that its own people will be “collateral damage” when the Israeli missiles strike their targets? Not at all. A steadily rising civilian death-toll isn’t a bug in Hamas’ strategy, it’s a feature.

There was a time when, to be regarded as a serious leftist, one was obligated to inform oneself as well as possible about world affairs – especially the geopolitics of great power rivalry and its consequences. No longer. One can be a fervent supporter of the Palestinian cause without ever pausing to wonder from whom groups like Hamas and Hezbollah get their military supplies, their military training.

Today’s leftists do not know, or do not care, that it is the hand of the Islamic Republic of Iran that is moving these terrorist pieces on the Middle-East chessboard. The same Islamic Republic that murders women and girls for refusing to wear the hijab. The same Islamic Republic that is committed to the utter destruction of Israel – and is rapidly acquiring the nuclear capacity to do exactly that. Today’s leftists simply do not realise that, if this was the Lord of the Rings, they’d be on the side of Sauron – they’d be cheering on the orcs.


Don’t they care about the optics of all this? When Jewish students in New York have to barricade themselves in their university library, against Pro-Palestinian leftists, and all the antisemitic, misogynistic, homophobic and transphobic “allies” standing right there beside them, pounding on the door, trying to get in. Does it not occur to them that people looking at the video clip of that incident posted on X might be reminded of something? When a supposed “leftist” stands up in Auckland’s Aotea Square and urges the multitude waving their Palestinian flag to “Globalise the Intifada!” – i.e. Let’s have pogroms everywhere! – and is cheered to the echo. What does he suppose New Zealand’s Jewish community sees?

Not leftism, but fascism. And so does every other leftist who still understands the meaning of the word.

Actually, very well said!

Actually, I have a harder time understanding the leftists who have trouble disliking the Russians over Ukraine than the ones who have issues over Israel.

One of the core modern progressive tenets is “religion bad” and Israel is essentially a religious state. We have been conditioned (erroneously) that being against Islam is essentially racism but the Jewish folks are successful, so they are “white”…

It’s not logical, but it’s there.

Wow, what a great article! Thanks, Shanks.

There is one section, in particular, that stands out IMO:

quote:

Notwithstanding the facts of international law concerning the responsibility of all those exercising state (or state-like) authority to protect their citizens from harm, Hamas committed its atrocities in the certain knowledge that Israel – fulfilling its own legal duty to protect its citizens – would feel compelled to destroy those responsible for organising and committing them. That this would entail air and artillery strikes on Gaza was obvious to the whole world. But, Hamas did not shrink from Israeli retaliation, it welcomed it.

Why? Because it knew that if the IDF was coming after them, then it would also be coming after the apartment buildings, the office blocks, the schools and the hospitals from which it launches its rockets, and under which it locates its storehouses, fuel dumps, arsenals, factories and command centres. Does Hamas know that this is a blatant breach of the Geneva Conventions – a war crime? Of course it does. Doesn’t it care that its own people will be “collateral damage” when the Israeli missiles strike their targets? Not at all. A steadily rising civilian death-toll isn’t a bug in Hamas’ strategy, it’s a feature.

There HAS to be a reason, and I think the author partially answered it. Let's take a look at Cause and Effect. Suppose the author is correct in his assessment. Is he describing Cause or Effect? I think it's Effect.

Here's a video describing the Cause:

https://youtu.be/W2cSTq4CgiE?s...eHmauwObDp384l&t=254 (I started the video at 4:14 to spare you somewhat)

I think what he describes as religious Apocalypticism desire applies to Christianity as much as Islam, but fundamentalist Islam is especially violent at pushing it to self-fulfilling prophesy.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

It’s not logical, but it’s there.

I think that focusses on the wrong, or minor aspect of the article.
Its not really about the activities used as examples, its about the state of reaction and inability of cognition in the west.

All sides in the west use “logic” and “science” to prove that their particular position is right.

The west has always done that.

From the wars where kill them all, god knows his own to the mental gymnastics that justify Marxism or Fascism.

Everyone can’t get their way. We all are willing to suspend disbelief for what we want to.

Excellent article Shanks.

Again it shows....the left accusing the right of what they have become.

The leftists today are either fools ......or evil....


.

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
I think that focusses on the wrong, or minor aspect of the article.
Its not really about the activities used as examples, its about the state of reaction and inability of cognition in the west.

It is an article that makes one think.

I dislike the premise that "state of reaction" or "inability of cognition" is a left or right thing, and focus on that misses a lot. That's the flaw of the author and article, IMO.

IMO, the Armageddon thing is not minor at all. It's the whole basis for this disaster. For sure it explains where Hamas is coming from.

There's a lot going on with this whole thing, lots of shit that humans just made up, which affects the utter basis. Hitchins was right.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...f9f7c266bfbf0&ei=120

American Evangelicals Await the Final Battle in Gaza
Story by Chris Lehmann • 12h

Within the article the author uses the word "accelerationists" and attributes it to the left.

Quote:
"In secular leftist politics, advocates of rapid escalation of class and geopolitical conflict are known as accelerationists; in endtimes prophecy belief, acceleration is left to God, but his Christian emissaries still retain the awesome power of recognizing and celebrating the signs of the pending judgment—and urging earthly powers and principalities to get in line with the divine plan before it’s too late."

It's both left and right:

Accelerationism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerationism#

Left-wing accelerationism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...wing_accelerationism

Far-right accelerationist terrorism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...erationist_terrorism

=================================================================

I'll bet you never heard of it. But it exists and is real. For sure - leftist accelerationism is benevolent and benign compared to rightist's accelerationism.

From ME's post and signature

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
I'll bet you never heard of it. But it exists and is real.

Hamas PLOTS to have human shields, which they don't care about, to paint a picture to the world

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

"When Conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they won't abandon Conservatism they'll abandon Democracy" - Republican Advisor to President Bush David Frum.

Hamas hasn't had an election since 2006 and refuse democracy

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
o
Trump's Insurrection isn't over. It's ongoing, outcome pending.

Hamas states they they are bringing the jihad t the world, and Israel is only the starting point

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

Republican rationalization: "Just because there's a few turds in the party pool doesn't mean we shouldn't swim in it."

Hamas rationalization - a few civilians die, we'll use them to distort the war crimes we are committing

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
Republican's declaration of open-mindedness: "I've changed my views 360 degrees on this issue".

Hamas' world view - we have performed a 360 degree review, and will bring jihad to the world

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

Vote - while it still counts.

Vote? you voted Hamas into power, and reap what you have sown

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

Reality - resistance if futile.

Reality - resistance is required

Funny how many on the Left are supporting Hamas/defaming Israel/calling for a cease fire -- There was a ceasefire until Oct 6th - Hamas broke it - What is interesting is the "everything" the left holds dear, Hamas HAS sentenced people to death over. The REALLY weird part? Arab countries aren't just not allowing Palestinians into their countries, they have made active statements that they WON'T -

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
From ME's post and signature

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

Vote - while it still counts.

Vote? you voted Hamas into power, and reap what you have sown

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

Reality - resistance if futile.

Reality - resistance is required.

You could have left that BS out and I might have agreed with the rest of your post.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
From ME's post and signature

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

Vote - while it still counts.

Vote? you voted Hamas into power, and reap what you have sown

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

Reality - resistance if futile.

Reality - resistance is required.

You could have left that BS out and I might have agreed with the rest of your post.

You think then, that Hamas as a government is okay AND that we shouldn't resist Hamas? including the fact that hamas hasn't allowed elections since 2006? you good?

But, hey, 5 out of 7 is progress

quote:

You think then, that Hamas as a government is okay AND that we shouldn't resist Hamas? including the fact that hamas hasn't allowed elections since 2006? you good?

At least you put question marks at the end of those statements, pretending they aren't accusations.

When did I say those things?

That's not the way to have a discussion - by accusing someone of something not true, thus he sees the need to defend himself.

IDK what your (revised remarks) mean .. i suggest you ask the author what they meant when they called my remarks BS ...

over to you --

"Reality - resistance required" --- you're doing a good job.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
I think that focusses on the wrong, or minor aspect of the article.
Its not really about the activities used as examples, its about the state of reaction and inability of cognition in the west.

It is an article that makes one think.

I dislike the premise that "state of reaction" or "inability of cognition" is a left or right thing, and focus on that misses a lot. That's the flaw of the author and article, IMO.

IMO, the Armageddon thing is not minor at all. It's the whole basis for this disaster. For sure it explains where Hamas is coming from.

There's a lot going on with this whole thing, lots of shit that humans just made up, which affects the utter basis. Hitchins was right.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...f9f7c266bfbf0&ei=120

American Evangelicals Await the Final Battle in Gaza
Story by Chris Lehmann • 12h

Within the article the author uses the word "accelerationists" and attributes it to the left.

Quote:
"In secular leftist politics, advocates of rapid escalation of class and geopolitical conflict are known as accelerationists; in endtimes prophecy belief, acceleration is left to God, but his Christian emissaries still retain the awesome power of recognizing and celebrating the signs of the pending judgment—and urging earthly powers and principalities to get in line with the divine plan before it’s too late."

It's both left and right:

Accelerationism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerationism#

Left-wing accelerationism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...wing_accelerationism

Far-right accelerationist terrorism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...erationist_terrorism

=================================================================

I'll bet you never heard of it. But it exists and is real. For sure - leftist accelerationism is benevolent and benign compared to rightist's accelerationism.

I dont know that the intent is to make it a left or right thing? I actually am kicking myself as I recognised that would be a reply you would give and thought to answer it preemptively with, I agree. This article is not a statement of support for the right. What it is is a recognition that many on the left will not accept or recognise that fascism can indeed rise from that quarter. Through ignorance.
The author is a left wing writer who often criticises the right, and you would more often agree with him Id think, than I would. However yes, he does always makes one think which is why I follow him. The scope of this is not all encompassing, but he has had lately, quite some concern over where the left is heading. Something many on the right have been aware of for some time.

Edit to add- Im not going down the religious path, or the terrorism one. that wasn't the purpose of my sharing this. this is about the reaction from what would more likely be a secular humanist cohort of the population.

quote:

What it is is a recognition that many on the left will not accept or recognise that fascism can indeed rise from that quarter. Through ignorance.

The author is a left wing writer who often criticises the right, and you would more often agree with him Id think, than I would. However yes, he does always makes one think which is why I follow him. The scope of this is not all encompassing, but he has had lately, quite some concern over where the left is heading. Something many on the right have been aware of for some time.

Edit to add- Im not going down the religious path, or the terrorism one. that wasn't the purpose of my sharing this. this is about the reaction from what would more likely be a secular humanist cohort of the population.

I'll try to be respectful regarding your view that this thread is of limited scope.

Yes, certainly there is always concern over where the Left is heading. The Right being "aware" is questionable in that they definitely make up a lot of nonsense about the Left and where they perceive it's heading. There's a lot of projectionism too, from the Right - they can't understand it any other way. One thing is that I have a hard time figuring fascism could possibly come from the left. I think that's Rightist's projection.

The scope of this, as the author assesses, includes religion and terrorism, which as you say is not your purpose for posting. But, after all, it is the fundamental for this mess in the first place. We can skirt around it, as you wish.

So, from your last comment, I take it that by "left" you mean the secular humanist segment (cohort), and attribute whatever Leftist fascist tendencies that may exist "from that quarter", "through ignorance", specifically. Am I reading you correctly?

Good article and line of discussion Shanks…thank you for taking the time.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

I dislike the premise that "state of reaction" or "inability of cognition" is a left or right thing, and focus on that misses a lot. That's the flaw of the author and article, IMO.

It is not a left or a right thing. It is an ignorance thing and it looks to me that the author points to ignorance.

Ignorance is concentrated in the young…simply because they have not yet been to the school of reality (used to be called the school of hard knocks) and they are more ideological in their thought processes than fact and logic oriented.

In today’s world (maybe always) 70% of the less than 30s hail from the left.

You don’t see many 40+ year olds of non-Islamic decent cheering pro-Palestinian/pro-Hamas rallies.

quote:

cheering pro-Palestinian/pro-Hamas rallies

I'll admit that this is a topic that I'm not as well informed on as I would like to be, which for the most part is why I'm participating. I'm not here to argue - this time - I want to learn somethings about this very important topic. You can say I'm ignorant, but I don't care. We are all ignorant to some degree, whether by choice, circumstance, indoctrination, or ability.

For starters, the quote above bothers me, and it seems the author of the article makes the same conflation, rather than distinction. I don't know anyone like that (pro-Palestinian/pro-Hamas). I thought it was possible, and perhaps morally correct, to be sympathetic to Palestinian people and disgust with Hamas. Are they in fact the same thing?

Quotes from the article:

"What is it then that permits those who self-identify as leftists to survey the horrors of 7 October 2023 and see only a glorious act of Palestinian resistance? How is it possible for those who cheered on Jacinda Ardern’s “politics of kindness” to absorb all the details of the rape, the torture, the killing – and not respond with fury and disgust?"

"A leftist who turns her face in fury and disgust from the IDF’s brutality on the West Bank, cannot, either logically or ethically, refrain from doing the same in the face of Hamas’ murderous fanaticism."

Maybe I'm wrong, but I was thinking most Leftists felt fury and disgust and helplessness with the acts of both Hamas and Israeli military.

After all, is genocide ever a moral high ground whoever is doing it, or whoever wins and gets to write the history books?

The author uses the words "moral vacuity" in describing the Leftist flaws. He also uses the word "ignorance".

So, which is it?

Maybe it's neither. Maybe it's keen awareness of reality. Maybe it's a moral compass, spinning like North and South got mixed up.

It must be nice for one's moral compass to be fixated (for lack of a better word) like Lane's.

=================================================================

So, tell me the following is not true:

The fundamentalist Christian's moral compass says to him that the right or wrong of this all is God's domain, will and word, and He has spoken.

The Islamic Fundamentalist, such as Hamas, says the same thing.

Thus, each religion's God has pre-ordained this with specific prophesy of Armageddon.

The Leftist secular humanist's moral compass says to him that both sides are very fucked up, and the evidence is clear.

When was the last time the philosophy, belief or worldview, of secular humanist got into a war or genocide or justification thereof?

Im rushing out the door and dont have time at moment, but just want to clarify that we are talking about a minority. But one here that is very vocal and there are some strong hypocrisies from them.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

What it is is a recognition that many on the left will not accept or recognise that fascism can indeed rise from that quarter. Through ignorance.

The author is a left wing writer who often criticises the right, and you would more often agree with him Id think, than I would. However yes, he does always makes one think which is why I follow him. The scope of this is not all encompassing, but he has had lately, quite some concern over where the left is heading. Something many on the right have been aware of for some time.

Edit to add- Im not going down the religious path, or the terrorism one. that wasn't the purpose of my sharing this. this is about the reaction from what would more likely be a secular humanist cohort of the population.

I'll try to be respectful regarding your view that this thread is of limited scope.

Yes, certainly there is always concern over where the Left is heading. The Right being "aware" is questionable in that they definitely make up a lot of nonsense about the Left and where they perceive it's heading. There's a lot of projectionism too, from the Right - they can't understand it any other way. One thing is that I have a hard time figuring fascism could possibly come from the left. I think that's Rightist's projection.

The scope of this, as the author assesses, includes religion and terrorism, which as you say is not your purpose for posting. But, after all, it is the fundamental for this mess in the first place. We can skirt around it, as you wish.

So, from your last comment, I take it that by "left" you mean the secular humanist segment (cohort), and attribute whatever Leftist fascist tendencies that may exist "from that quarter", "through ignorance", specifically. Am I reading you correctly?

Got a bit more time now so will reply in full.
Just my view, but the concerns the author raises are not specific too the palestine or Ukraine situations. They are just the most glaring examples right now of how an issue is presenting itself. That one of those happens to be religious in nature is an issue for sure, but one that tracks away from why a vocal section of the left feels compelled to support palestine and Russia. Despite a preponderance of evidence that at the very least should offer most people pause for consideration.
One of the worrying ways it has presented itself here IN NZ, and what i suspect is behind this article to some extent is the latest election, where the policies of Ardern when too far and weakened the centre left, while at the same time, creating a divide which saw the centre left of Arderns party receive an astonishingly low percentage of votes while the extreme, identity politics section of the left, represented by the greens and the race based, Te Pati Maori party, reach all time highs.
The same of course can be said to be happening at the other end of the political spectrum. We know it because its reported on alot. It seems to be easier to identify and talk about. But whats happening on the left is In my view, more actively shaping the world we live in right now.

quote:

just want to clarify that we are talking about a minority. But one here that is very vocal and there are some strong hypocrisies from them.

You are writing about NZ leftists and I'm writing about USA leftists. There are parallels, but not entirely.

Anyway, thanks for the thought provoking post.

However, it's not reasonable to bring up these subjects and not expect the scope to be explored.

Insofar as the USA is concerned, here are examples of the Left and the Right views on the war between Israel and Hamas.

https://youtu.be/GDBqdpr48TU?si=HiA6j3KCKFqaJOHT

U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken urges protection for civilians in Gaza

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...02352be7207676&ei=16

Republicans Introduce Bill To Expel Palestinians From The United States
Story by Arthur Delaney, Rowaida Abdelaziz • 4h

https://www.msn.com/en-us/vide...cid=socialshare&t=51

President Joe Biden Says ‘Justice Must Be Done’ During Israel Visit

Amid the ongoing war between Israel and Hamas, President Joe Biden urged people to not be “consumed” by their rage.

https://youtu.be/7_7uVh0-7R8?si=tuVhWF7DDstaRw3d

Tension between US and Israel over calls for humanitarian 'pause'

My view is that like Ukraine, the israel/palestine issue is worthy of its own topic. As is the potential slide into fascism of the far left.
of course I cant stop you going on that Tangent as you seem determined to do, but the only result of that will be the dilution and overwhelming of any discussion of the topic of origin, which is a pity.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

I dislike the premise that "state of reaction" or "inability of cognition" is a left or right thing, and focus on that misses a lot. That's the flaw of the author and article, IMO.

It is not a left or a right thing. It is an ignorance thing and it looks to me that the author points to ignorance.

Ignorance is concentrated in the young…simply because they have not yet been to the school of reality (used to be called the school of hard knocks) and they are more ideological in their thought processes than fact and logic oriented.

In today’s world (maybe always) 70% of the less than 30s hail from the left.

You don’t see many 40+ year olds of non-Islamic decent cheering pro-Palestinian/pro-Hamas rallies.

Id add to that that the young are not as aware of history and its importance which is a factor. But also there is such an ability to present disinformation now in such a manor that it takes more effort to work out whats the truth, and the side effect is that people stop trying and choose information that sits comfortably with them.

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

I dislike the premise that "state of reaction" or "inability of cognition" is a left or right thing, and focus on that misses a lot. That's the flaw of the author and article, IMO.

It is not a left or a right thing. It is an ignorance thing and it looks to me that the author points to ignorance.

Ignorance is concentrated in the young…simply because they have not yet been to the school of reality (used to be called the school of hard knocks) and they are more ideological in their thought processes than fact and logic oriented.

In today’s world (maybe always) 70% of the less than 30s hail from the left.

You don’t see many 40+ year olds of non-Islamic decent cheering pro-Palestinian/pro-Hamas rallies.

Id add to that that the young are not as aware of history and its importance which is a factor. But also there is such an ability to present disinformation now in such a manor that it takes more effort to work out whats the truth, and the side effect is that people stop trying and choose information that sits comfortably with them.

Very true. While the genie can never be put back into the bottle…it has become the downfall of humanity.

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
My view is that like Ukraine, the israel/palestine issue is worthy of its own topic. As is the potential slide into fascism of the far left.
of course I cant stop you going on that Tangent as you seem determined to do, but the only result of that will be the dilution and overwhelming of any discussion of the topic of origin, which is a pity.

My post preceding the one I quoted from you was not a tangent. It is directly on point with the Israel/Palestine issue.

I'm having trouble buying into your premise of liberal fascism gaining any kind of traction, whether USA or NZ.

Mostly I see the argument as gibberish stretch.

For one thing, how can political movements towards Fascism be from the Left and Right simultaneously. The Right in the USA already has that franchise, well founded and funded.

The only time I can think of in history where leftist fascism MAY be legit claimed was FD Roosevelt's terms, but that was war, and not the norm.

Anyway, I'm researching it. So far, quickly, I found this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Fascism

Liberal Fascism

Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, from Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning is a book by Jonah Goldberg, who was then a syndicated columnist and the editor-at-large of National Review Online (now at The Dispatch). In contrast to the mainstream view among historians and political scientists that fascism is a far-right ideology, Goldberg argues in the book that fascist movements were and are left-wing.[1] Published in January 2008, it reached number one on The New York Times Best Seller list of hardcover non-fiction in its seventh week on the list.

Goldberg has said in interviews that the title Liberal Fascism was taken from a 1932 speech by science fiction pioneer H. G. Wells at Oxford.

Reception:
In January 2010, the History News Network published essays by David Neiwert, Robert Paxton, Roger Griffin, Matthew Feldman, Chip Berlet and Michael Ledeen criticizing Liberal Fascism. These reviews denounced the book as being "poor scholarship",[6] "propaganda",[7] and not scholarly.[8] History News Network also published a response by Goldberg, which several authors then responded to.[9]

In a January 2022 retrospective published in the conservative magazine The Dispatch, Goldberg stated that: "While I would certainly write the book differently today, I still stand by much of it, proudly so in many regards. For instance, I take great satisfaction that my hammer-and-tongs attack on Woodrow Wilson's nativism, racism, and authoritarianism, much ridiculed at the time is now much closer to conventional wisdom on the left and right."

However, Goldberg also stated that: "there's one important claim that has been rendered utterly wrong. I argued that, contrary to generations of left-wing fearmongering and slander about the right's fascist tendencies, the modern American right was simply immune to the fascist temptation chiefly because it was too dogmatically committed to the Founders, to constitutionalism, and to classical liberalism generally. Almost 13 years to the day after publication, Donald Trump proved me wrong."

Certainly there is ample examples of anti-Jew/anti-Israel behavior being exhibited from the left in the US currently.

ME,
Would you say that communism/marxism/socialism are "left" systems? Not perhaps your PERSONAL concept of left leaning DNC stuff, but would you concede that to most people, those are leftist?

Either way, would you further acknowledge that, with humans being imperfect, that (not limited to them) in all cases where these systems of systems have been tried, that that lead to despotism/high concentrated leadership/triokas/dictators (though they may not bear these labels directly?

I am willing to suggest that the term fascism and despotism are used somewhat interchangeably in the modern world, where, i think, all right(no pun) minded people would agree that the world is better without warlords, dictators/etc

The flat out truth is that various TACTICS can be used by any and all parties, some of which include

demonization of the opposing parties
propaganda
disruption of assemblies of the opposing parties
media distortion of the news (this is different than propaganda if you think on it)
indoctrination/radicalization of youth
political "crimes"
minimization
dehumanization (might be a repeat of demonization)
"grabbing power"
distortion of rights
distortion of rule of law
limits on speech - btw, you do know that our 1a fully supports LIARS, as how else could a work of fiction be published, and makes no distinction between truth and lies in one's right to express them?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:


It is not a left or a right thing. It is an ignorance thing and it looks to me that the author points to ignorance.

Ignorance is concentrated in the young…simply because they have not yet been to the school of reality (used to be called the school of hard knocks) and they are more ideological in their thought processes than fact and logic oriented.

In today’s world (maybe always) 70% of the less than 30s hail from the left.

You don’t see many 40+ year olds of non-Islamic decent cheering pro-Palestinian/pro-Hamas rallies.

Id add to that that the young are not as aware of history and its importance which is a factor. But also there is such an ability to present disinformation now in such a manor that it takes more effort to work out whats the truth, and the side effect is that people stop trying and choose information that sits comfortably uncomfortably with them.

Very true. While the genie can never be put back into the bottle…it has become the downfall of humanity.

"effort to work out what's the truth, and the side effects" are indeed a problem, perhaps not the "downfall of humanity" - that's another topic.

This "downfall" is not concentrated in youth, those under 40, as you claim. It's across the spectrum of ages. Disinformation and lies have always been a challenge. It's an excuse to blame it on social media, MSM, FOX, etc.

Truth vs ignorance - hummm?

Sorting it out - hummm?

The fault, dear Lane, is in ourselves.

Truth is subjective. Ignorance can be self-induced, especially when substituting facts with belief to know the truth. There is a cascade therein directly related to one's ability to sort things out. Therein is the comfortable zone, where one harbors himself, and quits looking at uncomfortable information. Yet, he blames factors outside, rather inside, himself.

The fault, too, is in people who KNOW that they can sort it out and know the truth, yet demonstrate otherwise despite what they say.

I hate to say it -- but -- the era of Trump proves many things about Truth, lies, disinformation and people's ability to sort things out with reference to good, evil, virtues, morals, ethics, as they tie into truth. There is a yuge void therein, which was filled with something, but it certainly wasn't truth (reality).

Darn it Jeffie - I didn't quote your post because it stands for itself, and it's too much or good for me to argue with. I partially covered it with my last post above, which crossed in cyberspace with yours.

You should post more stuff earlier in the day, like your above post.

This is the NZ green party.
https://twitter.com/Suitandtie.../1720715772962722087

At the end of her speech she says two things that directly contradict, and she says them with fervour.
How can you have any understanding of history and conflate what Israel is doing, with the from the river too the sea statement?

“ Whanau, this ain’t complicated, we have got enough expert evidence this is genocide, this is ethnic cleansing, this is apartheid…. From the river to the sea”

- Chloe Swarbrick

quote:

From the river to the sea”

Kiwis and Britts get upset over the darndest things.

https://www.theguardian.com/wo...ean-israel-palestine

‘From the river to the sea’: where does the slogan come from and what does it mean?

Also:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news...n-slogan-really-mean

Given that the protest placard du jour at this and many other protests around the world is a rubbish bin with an israeli flag and the words, take out the trash. And given that even in the articles you post, its recognised that its a contentious slogan that can have a range of meanings, and given the rhetoric and actions that started this latest conflict, And as I said, with at least some knowledge of history and what Hamas desires.
Do you think a senior member of parliament and most likely the future leader of the greens within 3 years, of a party that got 10% of the vote here, should be choosing that phrase?
Was it a wise phrase to use?

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

From the river to the sea”

‘From the river to the sea’: where does the slogan come from and what does it mean?

from Hamas spokesmen - it mean killing all Jews, from the (Jordan) River to the (Med) Sea - It is antisemitic to the core, and pro-Hamas

only Hamas apologist SAY it means anything else -

are you also aware that Time named hitler "Man of the Year" in 1938
https://content.time.com/time/...,9171,760539,00.html

just because it's printed doesn't mean it's either virtuous or true

Its not a coincidence that that phrase is turning up at the same time and from a similar quarter of the population in both your and my nation.

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

I dislike the premise that "state of reaction" or "inability of cognition" is a left or right thing, and focus on that misses a lot. That's the flaw of the author and article, IMO.

It is not a left or a right thing. It is an ignorance thing and it looks to me that the author points to ignorance.

Ignorance is concentrated in the young…simply because they have not yet been to the school of reality (used to be called the school of hard knocks) and they are more ideological in their thought processes than fact and logic oriented.

In today’s world (maybe always) 70% of the less than 30s hail from the left.

You don’t see many 40+ year olds of non-Islamic decent cheering pro-Palestinian/pro-Hamas rallies.

Id add to that that the young are not as aware of history and its importance which is a factor. But also there is such an ability to present disinformation now in such a manor that it takes more effort to work out whats the truth, and the side effect is that people stop trying and choose information that sits comfortably with them.

The young are not "taught" history, history Jas changed to "social studies".

We let the left gain control of our education system and the dumbing down began......it is much easier to control the ignorant.

Im 50. I wasn't taught history either. Well at least not enough to have a good enough understanding of the world. Like most I think we pick up history as we live, events happen and you question why. Time not schools seems to let you work out that its not the famous battles that are always the important bit. Its what caused them.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

From the river to the sea”

‘From the river to the sea’: where does the slogan come from and what does it mean?

from Hamas spokesmen - it mean killing all Jews, from the (Jordan) River to the (Med) Sea - It is antisemitic to the core, and pro-Hamas

only Hamas apologist SAY it means anything else -

are you also aware that Time named hitler "Man of the Year" in 1938
https://content.time.com/time/...,9171,760539,00.html

just because it's printed doesn't mean it's either virtuous or true

Well, I'm gonna take your word for this one, and bow out. I don't want to be accused of supporting Hamas and have to waste the time to defend myself. I saw the hysterics on another thread where that happened to another guy.

I was hesitant to delve into this thread in the first place, anyway.

It's too hot and ain't worth it to me. It is what it is - so be it.

I'll leave this thread with one final thought:

https://youtu.be/84kWyGSMtR8?si=AF3zu3HlbMKokd2S

AXIS of EVIL

You will notice, ME, that I have not delved into the Hamas/Israel threads either. It kind of amazes me that despite me repeatedly saying thats not where I want this to go and that its not what this is about, that you leave, blaming exactly that reason.

proving its not just a kiwi thing, and not isolated, by chance this dropped today from the left in your nation. I beleive its a similar enough monologue to be relevant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnl243DjsUE