quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Based on figures from LE agencys actual shootings of humans

We have the data from thousands of police shooting. But the data from a small number of bear shootings.



I would not feel comfortable with a carry pistol of any caliber. Yes they will kill a bear or discourage a bear sometimes perhaps but thats not very encourageing, although better than a knife.

There are bears then there are bears. Most people tend the think that every bear one need to defend themselves from is a 1000lb plus bear. but is not even close to the norm.

I know from personnel experience that a good properly placed hand gun bullet has no trouble killing a bear.


.I prefer a compact short big bore lever rifle

I perfer not to have to shoot a bear in self-defense

and yes I realize a pistol is handier, or so they say.

All I can say Ray you must not have done many chores lately while carrying a rifle.

Ive seen a lot of articles by "pistol experts and archery experts" passing out hogwash over the killing properties of bows and pistols


Well Ray is it killing power, we are talking about or stopping power.

Arrows and lessor powered firearms can kill very well

But they do not have the bone smashing organ destroying power of the larger bore long guns


but to each his own what ever blows ones skirt up!!just my two bits.. and thats the rest of the story.

quote:

Originally posted by Walker:
Well, I don't know crap about bear attacks except what I read but if a bear gets you down any rifle, short or long, is worthless.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
And let us keep in mind that the legendary, pioneering game warden Harry Wolhuter killed a lion with a butcher knife whilst being horribly mauled by the king of beasts, Kruger Park, Republic of South Africa, 1904. Mental toughness is a weapon, too.
Damned good stuff!

https://southafrica.co.za/lege...-harry-wolhuter.html

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
170 incidents 98% effective.

Full article at link


https://www.ammoland.com/2023/...idents-98-effective/

Handguns have been shown to be effective tools when used to defend against bears. Seven years ago, whether handguns were effective when used to defend against bears was in dispute. In October 2016, someone on the Internet claimed pistols were ineffective as a bear defense. He claimed there were “legions” of incidents where they failed. He failed to provide a single documented case where a handgun, when fired in defense against a bear, failed to stop the attack.

A group of people I worked with and I started to look for instances where pistols were fired in defense against a bear or multiple bears. We particularly looked for incidents where pistol use failed to stop the attack. Incidents where the bear stopped attacking, was killed or just ran off were considered successful defenses.

quote:

p dog shooter, I for one really appreciate you posting about bear encounters over all these years. 98% effective is amazing. Fear of a bear encounter, IMHO, so outweighs the chance of even seeing one that it defies understanding. Still, it's very easy to carry a pistol and go about your business in grizzly country with your eyes open and wits about you. I do, especially when archery hunting or fishing small creeks in grizzly country.

quote:

Originally posted by bob tracey:
I've guided/hunted brown for 50 years I'm carrying a rifle

quote:

Originally posted by bob tracey:
I've guided/hunted brown for 50 years I'm carrying a rifle

quote:

For most people whatever you are comfortable carrying will work just fine be it a handgun, rifle, shotgun or spray. the bad bear attacks are so exceedingly rare that worrying about it is a waste of time and energy

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Thinking a sawed-off 12 gauge -- or even a 20 -- with buck/slugs might be a reasonable compromise between protection and portability. I realize many Internet "experts" deride these as difficult to use well.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

For most people whatever you are comfortable carrying will work just fine be it a handgun, rifle, shotgun or spray. the bad bear attacks are so exceedingly rare that worrying about it is a waste of time and energy

But it makes for interesting discussions.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
I have used rifles, shotguns and a couple of different handgun calibers to kill bears. They all died rather quickly.

Bullet placement and good bullets are the key.

The ones I shot with buckshot also died quickly. But due the lack of penetration at any distance I prefer slugs.

quote:

Originally posted by Kyler Hamann:
I don’t get why this issue is so contentious among hunters. It seems like a no-brainer to me.

I’ve only done a few bear hunts, but have spent 4 decades dealing with angry wounded pigs in the brush. For me there is nothing that holds a candle to a larger DA revolver in those charge situations. Over the years I’ve carried everything from 32-20’s, .357’s, .45 ACP, 10mm, 41 Mag, .44 Mag. and a 500 S&W, in everything from single action revolvers, double action revolvers, 1911, Glock to a Desert Eagle (9 shots of .44 Mag as fast as you can pull the trigger… seems like a great idea!).

For saving my bacon, saving my clients bacon… and putting down the bacon, I just keep coming back to S&W (DA) .44 Mags as my preferred tool. I’ve always said the only reason my legs aren’t all scarred up after this many years of guiding… is because the double action .44 revolvers have let me get off 2 or 3 real quick shoots, when I may have only gotten off one or two with a different (or larger) gun.

In a handgun, I don’t think I can recover from recoil fast enough to be effective with anything bigger than the full house .44 Mag loads, but I decided many years ago that wasn’t going to consistently carry anything smaller. Longer barreled handguns are great for slightly longer distances, but in super thick stuff and for quicker movements, the 3” and 4” barrels have worked the best for me. They’re also easier to carry in a holster, and to crawl with in your hand, than the 8 3/8” and 6+/-“ guns I’ve carried.

Even with a big rifle - to quickly save yourself from a charge you must get a bullet in some part of the forward central nervous system. That can’t always be done with one shot, so being able to rapidly get off a few aimed shots has made a huge difference in keeping me from limping away from several bad situations. If I think a charge could be coming (like approaching a downed animal or following blood), my rifle gets slung over my head and the handgun comes out. In the thick stuff the rifle gets left outside of the brush, you might be strong enough to knock down trees with your rifle during a rapid pivot… but I’ve found there is no way for me to consistently swing it fast enough in tight sitations.

I’ve finished off plenty of charging boars with rifles, but as distances decrease I’d much rather have a S&W .44. And maybe some people are good about always keeping a long gun at their side, but I see people leaving them behind way too often. I’ve found it’s much easier to stick with the habit of putting on a .44 when I leave home, and leaving it on until I get back home. Then I have no excuse for not having it with me.

My favorite is when a client says, “If we get charged, I have a pistol in my pack”. I guess they have a pause button on life that I’ve just never figured out.

P.S. Good point on the TSS penetration. That tungsten is a complete game changer for the physics of shotgun cartridges. I've been using TSS for coyotes and even a tiny #3 pellet will go right through a coyote. I hear a #1 is plenty enough for pigs and deer. It's 60% MORE dense than lead - so it throws everything we've known about shotguns out the window. I've even gotten bragging sized patterns at 100 yards! The price is insane... but it's amazing stuff.
Back to the topic - a shotgun is still too long for me to want in my hands in the close quarters charge situations I deal with, but with TSS it might be the perfect tool for a fishing guide type application - if they can make themselves carry it all the time.