Reasons why you say No to the 30-06

13 February 2002, 14:18

<Big Stick>

john holmes,

A very significant component of the mass appeal for the 30-06,is that AMMO is available in every shitkicking town. That comforts many and they sleep well at night knowing that. 30-06 ammo sales are very brisk business,for every single ammunition manufacturer. Every one of those boxes of ammo,operate at the velocities quoted by the guys that make and sell that ammo(discounting the prior noted HE exceptions,for each cartridge). I presented to you,in unbiased fashion,their findings/claims. You take issue with that,your sole recourse is to contact those Manufacturers and implore them to alter the scheme of things. I can't help you there.

Your latest Trump Card,in your whining tirade,is that a 24" 7-08 is "rare" and overly exotic? That is hilarious!

I submit for every manufacture that doesn't make a 24" barreled 7-08,there is one that builds a 22" barreled 30-06. But that was a noble effort. To cheer you up,I've got a "rare" 24" Factory 7-08.

The difference in a 7-08 with 140's,is often less than 50fps between a 22" and 24" tube. I know,because I have examples of each. Surely,you'll find comfort in that.

I've not distorted anything. Please feel free to peruse Manufacturer's published data claims. Mil-spec data claims or published Reloading data claims,that would favor data you cite,for the 30-06. When you unveil something entirely different than I've submitted,please Post it,to augment your misconceptions.

I've not deviated in the thrust,of my initial thoughts and cited printed materials to quantify those thoughts.

All the while you are frantic over a meaningles 2" of barrel length,can cite nothing contrary,but do manage to retain your comedic value.

Further,you obviously have little firsthand accounting of at least one of the cartridges in question.

Very entertaining. I applaud you,as none of that comes easily.......................

13 February 2002, 17:47

Wstrnhuntr

quote:
Originally posted by Big Stick:

Case in point: The dreaded 24" barreled 30-06,utilizing the 165gr XLC at 2800fps and a 250yd zero.
Drop at 600yds,-68.43"
10mph wind drift at same: 28.1"
Retained energy at 600yds,1195ft lbs
Now the dreaded 24" barreled 7-08,utilizing the 140grXLC at 2900fps and the same 250yd zero.
Drop at 600yds,-59.66"
10mph wind drift at same: 22.6"
Retained energy at 600yds,1240ft lbs
That damn shitty,little old,new fangled,worthless,flash in the pan,hyped up,piece of shit. Has it ALL over the '06.
It shoots 9" flatter.
Impacts at 191fps faster
Hits with 45ft lbs more energy
Drifts 5.5" less
SD is even .001 more for the 7-08

ALL with less recoil,powder and increased accuracy. I pulled that one out of my "ass",courtesy Barnes #2. Nosler #3 grants the '06 3000fps and the 7-08 2925fps,with the same weights I mention.

Sure! it has it ALL over that tired old no good 06, when you compare what you want to compare! How about running those #s again with a more similar bullet weight and at a range that someone here is likley to actually use their gun for, and while we're at it why not throw a 270 into the mix and see if comparing it to the 7-08 isnt just like comparing the 7-08 to the 06 and then we will see if what is SOO important stays the same.

13 February 2002, 18:14

Wstrnhuntr

130 grn bullets

06- 2987 fps, sd .196

7-08- 3065 fps, sd .230

270- 3117 fps, sd .242

Courtesy Speer.

Whats so exciting about the 7-08 now? looks kind of ho-hum in the middle to me.

13 February 2002, 18:32

ALL,

You've kicked this dead horse enough - Now get away from your keyboards and get some fresh air - Or better yet, go to the range and shoot some rounds.....................

13 February 2002, 18:33

<john holmes>

The two above posts by wstrnhntr sum it up pretty well. When you try and take ballistics out of context like big stick,then the 7-08 looks fairly good. As for rare or unlikely,thats exactly what the 24 inch barrel on a 7-08 is. The vast majority of 7-08 are based on short action remingtons with barrels 22 inches or less.

13 February 2002, 19:13

<Big Stick>

Wstrnhuntr,

You simply reinforce what I've said continually.

At the speeds you mention,with the weight you mention,the 7-08 outperforms the 30-06.

.284" 130gr XBT,has a BC of .444.
Zeroed at 250yds,it is -62" at 600yds and retains 973ft lbs of energy and drifts 29.8" in 10mph full value cross wind.

.308" 130gr XBT,has a BC of .374.
Zeroed at 250yds,it is -68.88" at 600yds and retains 795ft lbs of energy and drifts 37.2" in 10mph full value cross wind.

Again,ALL are in favor of the 7-08.
It's 6" flatter shooting.
Hits with 178ft lbs more energy.
Drifts 7" less.
Impacts with 200fps more velocity.

You are quite correct,the "ho-hum" sounding 7-08,did it again on the 30-06,with your supplied data.

Are you guys really this dense?...............

13 February 2002, 20:33

<john holmes>

No big stick you're the only one that's dense. Lets compare two cartridges that seldom see use beyond beyond 300 yards with some 600 yard analogy which is even more pathetic then your previous half assed attempts,which utilized pathetic velocities in the 30/06 in order to make the 7-08 shine. What's really sad, is your latest attempt,is nothing but the age old arguement over the ranging abilities of 7mm bullets in comparison to 30 caliber bullets at extreme ranges, when fired from magnum cartridges. Which like all of your posts,has nothing to do with hunting rifles fired out to 400 yards. In the above scenario,the 30's always come out ahead and thats why you see so few 7mm's being used in 1000 Yard shoots,but you see plenty of 300's.

14 February 2002, 09:11

<Big Stick>

john holmes,

You miss the obvious. Retained performance,at extended range,is a very good indicator of performance at reduced range(up close). Simply put,if it hits hard at a distance,it will hit hard closer. Can you follow that?

You were giddy with anticipation,in the 130gr comparison and stated the following:

"The two above posts by wstrnhntr sum it up pretty well. When you try and take ballistics out of context like big stick,then the 7-08 looks fairly good. As for rare or unlikely,thats exactly what the 24 inch barrel on a 7-08 is. The vast majority of 7-08 are based on short action remingtons with barrels 22 inches or less."

You fail to have an even basic grasp of ballistics. In that comparison,the 130gr .284" projectile has the higher sectional density and is launched at like speeds. That is a mechanical edge in penetration capabilities,all else being even.

Further,I tossed Wstrnhuntr a cookie,by using the .308" 130gr X in the comparison,because it is vastly superior to the 130gr Speer he offered. The X's BC is .374. The speer data he mentioned,used a bullet with a dismal BC of .265.

My point is,in the comparison you liked(until you saw the numbers)the 7mm will dig deeper initially. Will dig deeper at mid-range. Will dig deeper at extended range. Part due to SD,part due to BC,the remainder to projectile construction. When you get those mechanical traits working in harmony,good things happen in reliable fashion.

Your latest contention,is that the 30-06 is an infinately superior performing cartridge,inside 300yds?

I heartily disagree. The 7-08 has the capacity/efficiency,to propel ike SD projectiles at like velocity,with a good BC,to hold on to speed better. Assuming superior bullets in both,they are very even in potential.

Actually,the .264" high BC projectiles are the current 1000yd darling and many are finding favor with the .243" VLD offerings. Both propelled out of short action cartridges.

As I've continually asked. Just where does the dominance of the 30-06 lie,if you don't like the comparison of like projectile weights,or like SD's?

Another confused quote,from your misguided notions:

"What's really sad, is your latest attempt,is nothing but the age old arguement over the ranging abilities of 7mm bullets in comparison to 30 caliber bullets at extreme ranges, when fired from magnum cartridges".

Now the 7-08 is a "magnum" and has the unfair advantage?

Take another pill and try again.............

(All flustered over CNN and made a typo)

[This message has been edited by Big Stick (edited 02-13-2002).]

14 February 2002, 09:58

Mike375

Will my Hornady 375 270 grain round noses still work on roos and pigs in a few weeks time and across the flat country

Mike

13 February 2002, 22:05

<Big Stick>

I'm awaiting special Hunting Regulations,to preclude the use of the 7-08"Magnum" as an unfair advantage!

Who'da thunk a 140gr at 2900fps,would inspire such fear?(grin).................

14 February 2002, 01:35

<Bily Lovec>

man,
i havnt opened this thing in weeks, ive been missing all the fun !
its good to see another 7-08 fan here

without reading all 250+ post here, did you mention how much more accurate all your 7-08's are then your 30-06's ??

14 February 2002, 02:19

Johnny Ringo

Actually, BS (Big Stick), I don't care if you like the '06 or not - and I was considering quitting this thread. But after seeing how much time and effort you are putting into responding to these posts, THERE IS NO WAY I'M QUITTING. Mike 375 has you hook,line and sinker.

Arguing over 100 fps, going in circles, etc.
You like the .308 - great, me too.
I like ALL calibers, except the magnums.
Not because they don't work, but because I don't feel comfortable shooting them.

Anyways, you may have to quit your job soon so you have enough time to respond to all your "aggressors"

I can't believe you'd waste all this time to convince everyone that the 30.06 is not a good caliber.

I've used it and a few others, and frankly don't care if you like it or not - however I am getting a kick out of Mike 375 and others leading you around by the nose, letting you make yourself look silly.

What a hoot!!

14 February 2002, 04:03

Mark G

You may think you have some theoretical case for the 7-08 over the '06, but how about compare that little 7mm-08 to the 30-06's little brother the .270win. Both with 140gr bullets. I'd just like to hear people grab at little tiny staws. LOL

------------------
Thanks, Mark G

"Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything." Genesis 9:3

14 February 2002, 04:09

John S

Since Saeed will be taking some Sierra MKs to RSA this summer, maybe we should all demand he take an '06 and 7-08 as well.

14 February 2002, 04:36

Wstrnhuntr

Stick,

I may have re-inforced what you said in a sense but you COMPLETLY IGNORED what I said..

RUN THE #s AT 300 YDS.. AND WHERE IS THE 270?

The magical numbers you find so incredible about the 7-08 have no mistique to them whatsoever when things are put into perspective. There is plenty I could say to give you credit where credit is due but I can bring myself to do it while you continue to wear the blinders.

14 February 2002, 06:59

<john holmes>

Big stick,you've done a superb job of taking posts out of context. I never called the 7-08 a magnum. What I did say,was your arguement was the age old arguement of how 7mm bullets have an edge over 30 caliber bullets at extreme distances,when fired from magnum cartridges,not the 7-08. The above arguement has been hashed out time and again on these boards and you just chose to use it yourself and take it out of context. Why don't you give us a comparison of the 30/06 when fired from a 14 inch contender barrel,in comparison to a 24 inch barreled 7-08. You should be able to jerk off on that comparison all day.

14 February 2002, 09:31

<Big Stick>

R Waller,

Accuracy has been repeatedly mentioned. These gents don't care about an accuracy advantage.............

Johnny Ringo,

I don't hate the 30-06. I just deem it follish,that many trump it to be something,that many others cartridges are. Though that is unbeknownst to many.

I've not twisted nor turned,but have tried to give the misinformed data they seek.

They want to compare it this way,that way and a new way. If you can read,I have made zero outlandish claims.

It has been stated plainly,that alternate chamberings,can run along side the 30-06 nicely. Some wish to dispute that.

Mike hasn't led me anywhere,I didn't want to go. His tastes are different and that is subjective. He prefers the 375H&H as a long range rifle. I can live with the parent case,but I want my Long Range Rifle necked down and blown out.

What isn't subjective,is the mechanical capabilities of a given cartridge,that is the thrust of this discussion.............

Mark G,

I'm with you. I believe the 270 to be better than the 30-06 too.

However the heading of the thread,dealt with the 30-06,it is what folks wish to banty about. Sacred ground of sorts,though much of it hype..........

Wstrnhuntr,

I've not mentioned a peep,in the regard of the 270. You imply that the 270Win is a better cartridge to 300yds,than the 7-08 is,I maintain they are on the same page. Both equally adept,at killing the same things,in the same fashion.

The 270 utilizing the 130gr XBT makes 300 ft lbs more energy,than the 7-08 does at 300yds.

The 270 is hampered more by barrel length than either the 7-08 or 30-06,because it has more capacity,in ratio to it's bore size. Keep the barrel a realistic length(most are)and it is a very fine cartridge.

Chalk it up,to another excellent choice,in lieu of the 30-06.

This line of thought leads back to why I think so highly of the 257Wby.

Again,my point all along..................

john holmes,

If a direct quote,from your post,is out of context. That is an issue you'll need to answer for yourself.

You are typical,of the brainwashed masses. Despite the obvious,you can't open your eyes,because your preconceived notions won't allow it.

Let me guess.... Grandpappy and Grandmammy toted a rusted up old 30-06? You killed your first Deer with one. You've shot Factory ammo(as did Grandmam/Grandpap)for the Lion's Share of your quests and never saw a chronograph,let alone used one?.

Now you are chapped,because the hyperbole often doled out,isn't quite as crystal clear as you once thought. The '06 has lost some luster.

You don't like comparison at a distance. Nor like comparison of SD. Then you squirm to say none of that matters,because 300yds is your magic line in the sand.

Rest assured,to 300yds,the 7-08 will kill everything and in the same fashion,as the 30-06.

Bullet placement,bullet selection,the rest is largely moot. I've said it enough,it ought to sink in...................

14 February 2002, 12:17

Johnny Ringo

Could an argument be made then, that the 6.5x55 swedish mauser will do everything the '06 will do?? Federal's ballistic tables rate it neck and neck with the 7-08.

14 February 2002, 12:18

Johnny Ringo

And while we're at it, does it all rest on energy figures, or does bullet diamete/wound diameter play a large part in "killing power"??

14 February 2002, 12:35

<Big Stick>

Johnny Ringo,

There are MANY that would contend the Swede is an equal. It's laurels are it's SD figures,which stand alone in comparison. It has probably killed more Moose,than anything else.

Your sales Pitch to buy a 30-06,is that it's bullet diameter,before firing,is .024" larger in diameter(4 thicknesses of note book paper)? And that upon impact,it is the same?

Oh,that's a very powerful arguement............

14 February 2002, 12:43

<john holmes>

Well big stick,the only thing obvious in this thread,is you would like to lie and manipulate numbers,so that your 7-08 will come out ahead of the 30/06.
As for the magical line of 300 yards,there isn't anything magical about it. Three hundred yards is about as far as most people will have the need to shoot at big game. With the vast majority of people doing their shooting from 200 yards or less. So your figure of 600 yards is meaningless since neither cartridge is going to be employed at that range,outside of target shooting or someone like you winging shots out to 600 yards,because you couldn't drive any closer.
I really liked the part about the 30/06 losing "luster". How has it lost luster?Because some asswipe named big stick,says it has? Dream on.
Since you're so interested in what I killed my first deer with. I killed it with a .243 and no matter how you slice it,the .243 is marginal at best on deer. But if I remember right,you let your kid shoot deer with a .223,so the .243 is way overbore.
You're also right about the 30/06 AI, being able to shoot regular 06 loads,plus reloads that rival the 300 win mag is just a waste of time.

14 February 2002, 13:07

<Big Stick>

john holmes,

My trouble lies in if you are feigning your ignorance,or if it is in fact a biological event,beyond your control?!?

Please point out,where I misrepresented anything? I simply offered what is printed in a myriad of publications and readily available. You are mad because you didn't know any of that,so resolve to saying,that I somehow "cheated"?

Federal,Hornady,Winchester,Remington,etc,etc,etc, "cheated" you,in that their Factory ammo conforms nicely to what is printed in Loading Manuals and a realistic expectation from the 7-08.

You dispute the above,in a nonending childish rant. I ask repeatedly for you to offer data contrary to the major manufacturers claims. You don't/won't,because you can't. That upsets you even more. I suggest another pill.

Much of the romance and luster of the 30-06,is founded upon Great Men who fielded the cartridge in a bygone era. Without doubt,that cartridge,at that time,was a grand choice in comparison to many cartridges then available.

What most ovelook,is that the "magical" 30-06 performance of that time,comes in boxes of 20rds and is now marked 308Win and it incorporates even superior projectiles. Today's 308,is superior to yesteryear's 30-06.

If the 30-06 was soooo great then,the 308Win is the same today. You refute that.

Were you to shake the cobwebs out,you'll see I am level headed and stay on course.

I mentioned that most would be served well with a lesser recoiling round and anything from the 243 on up,will do nicely for general duty.

I'm not an advocate of huge cases,for everybody. I believe that for those inclined to effectively use such a cartridge,there is little better,when situations dictate their use.

The 30-06AI,is one of the Improved cartridges,that yields the smallest percentage of return,in case capacity. I have and love many Improved cartridges.

The 280Ackley is hard to improve upon (literally),when constructing optimal case design and performance,from the parent '06 brass.............

14 February 2002, 14:45

<john holmes>

The only course you've stayed on is to misrepresent the true velocities of the 30/06 and compare the 7-08 with 24-26 inch barrels which isn't the norm and velocities,that are only capable of being produced in those length of barrels. Then purposely compare underloaded velocities in the 30/06,which anybody could improve upon in a short 22inch barreled 30/06. Yes the factories do publish velocities for the 7-08 and the majority of them are in 24 inch barrels,since anything less in length leaves the 7-08 looking like it is,a small capacity round. Any way you look at it,the 30/06 ai provides 300 win mag ballistics. The only reason the 280AI is so effective,is because the 7mag is a mild magnum. Which needs a 26 inch barrel to truly ring out its full potential.

14 February 2002, 15:23

<Big Stick>

john holmes,

How many times have I asked you,to please state the velocities you deem to be "suitable" for discussion? What is the hold up? Why am I to blame for data published by much more learned men than myself(factory ammo figures/reloading manuals figures)?

You are very much mistaken,on the capabilities of the 30-06AI as compared to the 300Winny. The '06AI holds about 73grs of water. The 300Winmag 91grs of the same(compared to 84grs for the 7mmRemmag). If the 30-06AI did what you claimed,we'd all have one.

The 7mmRemmag is a very good cartridge and well balanced in my opinion. It does very well from a 24" tube,I have several currently in the closet. I prefer the 24" tube on that cartridge,as a good compromise in utility,without serious sacrifice. 140's at 3300fps,is a very nice combo.

The 280Ackley is excellent and will tread closely. But it simply can't "whip" the 7mmRemMag with a 24" tube for both. Impossible.

The 280AI is effective,because it is a slightly longer cartridge case,than the '06. It also wears a longer body(though slightly)and a shorter neck. When that case is popped out with minimal taper and wearing the crisp 40degree shoulder,it is of enough capacity increase,to see results. Much of that subtle,though still apparent.

The 280AI is a very good cartridge,no doubt about it..................

14 February 2002, 15:26

Johnny Ringo

BS,
Wasn't trying to sell the '06 to anyone.
I have a 6.5 swede as well and was fishing for opinions

So you are saying that bullet diameter plays no part in "killing power"??

So, a .222 caliber projectile would kill as fast as a .375 projectile.

I think MANY would argue that a bigger hole works better on bigger game.

People used to make comparisons that a 22-250
had the same energy as a 45.70

Which do you think would kill an elk better??

[This message has been edited by Johnny Ringo (edited 02-14-2002).]

14 February 2002, 15:29

Johnny Ringo

By the way BS, 6.5 and .308 bullets would not be the same after expansion. If both expanded to two times original, there would still be a significant expanded size difference.

14 February 2002, 16:02

<Big Stick>

Johnny Ringo,

Tell that to the millions of heads of Game,that have fell victim to various 6.5's that "didn't" work.

So your premise now,is you need a minimum of a .616" exit hole,to reliably harvest Game?

Regarding that assertion,I'd say the very exceptional SD values available to the 6.5 clan,nearly insure those projectiles will exit.

There are many that would take that assurance,over a hypothetical larger mushroom diameter,most every time.

Like constructed 6.5's,dig in a way most bullets can only dream.

Myself,I prefer higher impact speeds with a lighter bullet,to promote expansion and penetration. I've yet to recover a .284" X bullet from a single head of Game. So couldn't state hard data,to establish just what exact diameter of wound channel to expect,from that combo as a comparison.

So what I'm saying is,as long as you don't totally skew a pair of chamberings(.17Rem vs 416Wby),on Game performance isn't that drastic in difference,assuming like impact velocities and comparable SD's.

So in your .308" vs .264" querry,there are several trains of thought and all have killed nicely and for a looooong while.

I KNOW,that when comparing like cartridges,the one put in the better spot,kills better.

The flipside is I don't think there is a cartridge of enough magnitude,to compensate for minimal abilities with a rifle. Guys that have trouble shooting well and cleanly taking Game,are the first to look for a "bigger" rifle and chasing rainbows.

My contention is,those guys and most others,would be better served with a more user friendly chambering in the first place.

When metering accuracy potential,recoil and down range performance,I believe most could do worse than a 7-08. The trouble is,they often do.

Folks are quick to cuss the arrow,when the real trouble is the Indian.............

14 February 2002, 16:22

Johnny Ringo

I can't argue with any of what you've said in your last post.
(Damnit

)

14 February 2002, 17:38

<john holmes>

The 30/06AI pushes bullets at 300 win mag velocities plain and simple. No matter what you do, the 7-08 in a 22 inch barrel will never match the velocities of the 30/06 when shooting useful hunting bullets of 150grs or more. The only way the 7-08 keeps up,is when some idiot like you,tries to download the 06 and run the 7-08 full throttle. If the 7-08 was up to par with the 30/06,you wouldn't have had to go through the trouble of downloading the 30/06 in order to make the 7-08 look good. Try as you may big stick,but there is no replacement for displacement when it comes to velocity increases.

14 February 2002, 18:51

<Big Stick>

john holmes,

You can bullshit the fans,but you can't bullshit the players.

The 30-06AI,though of more capacity than the 30-06,can't compete with a 300Win. Impossible(again)

Here is another of your lovely all knowing quotes:

"Try as you may big stick,but there is no replacement for displacement when it comes to velocity increases."

You muttered those words just minutes ago. BUT now you are trying to tell me the 30-06AI(73grs capacity) is pushing bullets "at 300Winmag(91grs capacity) velocities plain and simple"?

Before I comment on my initial thoughts,I'll await more of your muddled "balleeesticks sofeestikation".

You are a beauty!! PLEASE,keep up your infinite wisdom,I'm riveted awaiting some more buffoonary..................

15 February 2002, 09:48

Socrates

Kind of curious. Of all these calibers, which around 300 caliber gun has been produced the most, and, are the 7's even in the ball game?

Since I'm not familiar with current ammunition prices on 7 mm, or necked down 30-06, how do the factory offerings stand, variety, and price wise?

I guess what I'm asking is is 270 popular enough, or any of these calibers, to find in coffee cans, or back woods stores, and, would they take game up to elk, or bear, as the poster asked?

Since the ballistics appear similar, I suspect the capability on game is about even, in this class.

Or, have game in the last 25 years become armor plated, and invulnerable to the 30-06, much as viruses become immune to treatment, or rats to posion, if exposed long enough to them?

I'm also wondering if 308 is popular enough as a hunting caliber, to have many, cheap, rifle and ammunition options?

I guess my feeling is, if you are going to take a 30-06 case and neck it, why neck down?

What's wrong with the 35 whelan, or the 375 Whelan????

Again, an essentially different philosophy about rifles...

------------------
I love 45
santilli@singleaction45.com

15 February 2002, 03:20

John S

Socrates-
I'm proud of you. You have finally asked some good and useful questions!

This entire thread has turned into a debate between whether or not the 7-08 is on equal footing with the 30/06. I think most would agree that for the original poster and what he intends to use the rifle on, the cartridges will both do good work.
As for your questions, the 270 has been around long enough that ammo for it will be found in coffee cans, etc as well as anywhere the stuff is sold. It is a very popular caliber, has been for 70+ years. Ammo is priced very much like 30/06 ammo, both reasonable compared to some of the super hyper fodder!
The 308 has been a very popular round since the 50s, about any rifle chambered for 30/06 is also done in 270 and again in 308. In those three chamberings you have an extremely large choice of rifles, and ammo offerings to match.
Necking any of them up to 338/06 or 35 Whelen or 358 Win. makes a better elk rifle but seriously compromises their all around utility. Recoil goes up, trajectory takes on the rainbow shape and ammo is suddenly difficult if not impossible to find. Forget the coffee cans.
If a hunter wants light recoil coupled with very flat trajectory and plenty of power for deer and black bear sized game, he can do no better than the 270. If he can stand more recoil and likes heavier bullets then he should pick a 30/06. The 308 and 7-08 fall somewhere in between these two, IMO.

15 February 2002, 04:10

<allen day>

About fifteen years ago, one of my friends had a .30-06 AI made up on a Model 700 action with a 24" Hart barrel. He had the barrel throated so that a loaded round just missed the lands, yet just fit in the magazine box for proper functioning. With 180 gr. Noslers he was just able to make 2900 fps., but no more with acceptable pressures.

I notice that Nosler lists 2985 fps. as their top .30-06 AI load featuring Reloader 22 out of a 24" Lilja barrel.

I've owned several .300 Winchesters that produced 3100 fps. with 180's, and exactly three that went as fast as 3150 fps.

I think it's fair to say that a fast, modern .30-06 AI load will beat the fastest .30-06 load easily, and match the slowest factory .300 Win. Mag. load.

But if even a "slow" .300 Winchester is loaded to it's potential, it'll still beat the .30-06 AI by 100 fps., and if the .300 Win. Mag. in question happens to come equipped with a big chamber and/or a fast barrel, it'll beat the .30-06 AI by over 150 fps. (same barrel length), and without any of the hassles of fire-forming, etc.