The truth is, the 30-06 has killed more game than most of the other 30 caliber cartridges combined. It ain�t the flattest nor the most hardhitting 30 caliber, but it works. I sure would not hesitate to use one if I had one.
[This message has been edited by Zero Drift (edited 02-03-2002).]
[This message has been edited by stubblejumper (edited 02-03-2002).]
Don't forget that lots of us get free 06. 308 or .223 ammo. Just shoot with a National Guard team and you can get all that you can shoot.
Many of us have a warm feeling about the 30-06! It's a step above the ordinary cartridges because of it being the military cartridge of the USA.
You may notice that there is not a lot of discussion of the 7.7 jap!
When all is said and done, much as I hate to say this, the 30-06 just gets it done, with little fuss.
Firearms are one area where it is an advantage, cost, and option wise, to go along with the mainstream of buyers. It leads to cheaper prices, better ammo, more options, and, it's easier to find parts, and gunsmiths to work on your gun.
gs
I don't know who told you the barrel on an ultra mag will last 5,000 rounds but they are wrong. You would be lucky to get 1/4 that many.
Jason
and the '06 kills em "just as dead"......
I bought a 30-06, and still have it. 2 MOA sucks. Having our local rifle expert look at it. I know it needs to be bedded, at the very least...
gs
This quote pretty much says it all:
"sure-shot - Most of the folks around here would have you believing that the 150 to 200 fps that the 30-06 gives up to the .300 Win Mag makes it totally inadequate to use for hunting. That anything invented in 1906 could not possibly kill any of the new, modern, armor-clad animals that seem to exist today.
The truth is, the 30-06 has killed more game than most of the other 30 caliber cartridges combined. It ain�t the flattest nor the most hardhitting 30 caliber, but it works. I sure would not hesitate to use one if I had one."
I just looked at a box of Federal 150 grain Sierra Gameking BTSP's. claimed 2910 fps muzzle. Wonder if that's out of my 26"barrel?
Zeroed at 100 yards, 3.3 inches low at 200,12" low at 300.
So, with factory ammo, I'm pretty much good to 400-500 yards, if I zero at 200-300.
Anyone care to try and catch one of those bullets?
As Zero Drift said, they have killed a lot of game.
gs
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gs
Today is a new era,the '06 isn't the sole logical conclusion anymore.
For that reason,the old establishment is bitter and the new generations,largely prefer their rifles chambered differently.
The 30-06 certainly isn't the landslide choice today,as it once was. Much of that due to economics. The '06 rifle today,costs the same as most other chamberings.
I like nostalgia and very much love my Winchester Garand,mostly because my Grandfather talked with fond memories and high praise of his Winchester Garand,while in the "Big One".
However,as a dedicated Hunting Rifle,I can't see the attraction of that cartridge. For much of my hunting,I prefer a myriad of short action cartridges. When distances become long,I tote a rifle with more "juice". For Brown Bear Country,I tote a larger rifle yet.
The 30-06,always struck me as a sacrifice cartridge,because it doesn't really excell at anything. That seems to excite many,but not me. I'd rather have a rifle that is excellent,for the task I ask of it.
For me,there is always a better choice than the 30-06,for everything. That is why I quit Hunting that cartridge and have never looked back.
I don't fall into the mainstream mindset,concerned that some archaeic store is going to have ammo available for one of my favorite rifles,were I to get in a bind and land on a deserted island. I've yet to become seperated from my ammo and can't remember the last head of Game I killed with a Factory round.
So for most of my needs,I much prefer the 7-08. When that cartridge may not offer enough,I step up to a chambering that exceeds the capacity of the '06.
Your mileage may vary.................
The ammo is still cheap and avaliable.
And it's got a wide variety of great bullets.
Super accurate, and, you just have to decide how far up the scale you want to go for hunting bigger stuff.
I think the 130 grain bullets give velocities similar to your 7mm, don't they?
You can also use 220 grain matchkings, at respectable, if not high, velocity.
I agree that for bigger stuff, threre are better choices, but, for smaller stuff, I like the bullet diameter, light bullets, and wide selection.
I don't see much to be gained by getting a lighter, smaller caliber, and find 308 a nice bottom to start up from, with rifles.
Course if you start below that, that's fine too.
gs
308 ammo is cheaper and more widely available,because it still serves as a NATO chambering. Most the great deals on 30-06 plinking ammo have dried up,because there hasn't been any massive Military production in a long while. As a nice bonus,the 308Win is more accurate,though it takes an accurate platform to yield that attribute.
Neither the 30-06 or 308 can make good speeds with a 220gr MK. The '06 will push them to 2500fps,that is far from "fast" in my book.
I suppose there are folks who could eat a shrimp cocktail with a pitchfork and shovel hay with a salad fork. I'd just as soon have the best tool for the job and that is why the 30-06 interests me very little..............
quote:
Originally posted by Don Martin29:
Both Stubblejumper and GF1200 are wrong on some counts.There are trade offs on everything. Consider the 7mm Rem Mag vrs the 06 and bullet weight availablity. To take really big boned game at less than 200 yards the 30-06 with a 200 gr Nosler Partition is more gun (my opinion) than a 7mm Rem Mag.
Not only that but the much lower cost and lower recoil (in equal guns) means that the 06 owner may practice more and aim better as a consequence.
If I were facing a Brown Bear up close I would pick a 06 over a 7 Mag anyday. They even hold more shots!
Every one of Stubbles arguments can be turned against him. Use what you want. I like the 06 a lot. I like it as much as all the other cartridges. And it is just right most of the time.
No Don, you are wrong! The 7mm Rem mag and 30-06 have about the same SD with the 175gr 7mm and 200gr .30 cal bullet. So they are in the same class, but the 7mm Rem will fire it's bullet almost 400fps faster!
Bullet diameter is ALWAYS a good thing, and the more, the better.
I would much rather hit something with a 458 or 500, at 2200-2400 then pinhole it with a 3200 fps 7mm. 30-06(yes, you can load a 130 to go somewhere around that fast out of an 30-06)can give you the same speed, with a lighter bullet, and a bigger hole.
Again, I like having my barrel around for a long time, not blown out in 1500 rounds.
The odd part I find is the only animals that velocity really works on seems to be deer, at least from the guys around here.
I wonder if the deer wouldn't go down faster with a bigger, pre-expanded bullet, at a slower speed. I really wonder if a 416 or 375 caliber bullet, at 2400, or faster, with a lighter bullet, wouldn't finish deer a bit faster then a zippo bullet at 3200 fps?
Just me...
gs
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I love 45
santilli@singleaction45.com
Why not have WAY less recoil, a bigger hole, and hit what you aim at?
I find it really strange that it's a fault that the 06 'only' hits 2500 fps with a 220 grain bullet. I thought, for some stupid reason, that was about optimum bullet speed, for that large a bullet.
If you want a grizzly stopper, that's not your best choice, but it would work.
Isn't 2400 fps with a 220 grain bullet out of an 06, zeroed at 200, pretty much flat to 275 yards? And you want a bear stopper?
Get a larger caliber, with a slower, bigger bullet. 458 winchester mag, or Lott comes to mind...
And what animal in North America eats 220 grain 30-06 bullets at 2400 fps, and keeps running, or eats you?
And these animals care if the bullet is going 2900 fps???
I guess they would, since most 220 grain bullets in 30-06 should blow up at that speed, yes???
gs
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I love 45
santilli@singleaction45.com
I like pre-expanded bullets, always have.
In handguns I like 45 colt and 45 acp.
In 45 colt, I use large metplat, Kieth or LBT style bullets, with lots of weight, up to 360 grains, and moderate velocity, 1000 fps to 1550. I also have used light, 230 grain bullets at 1700 fps.
The guy that built my gun, and knows something about hunting, uses 260 grain keith bullets, at 1000 fps, and says they will kill anything he can hit.
My point is, a large, slow moving bullet can cut a very large hole in what ever it hits.
See BearTooth Bullets for calculation of wound channels, by computer.
I just don't see much point in relying on a bullet to expand, and possibly fail, when I don't need to.
Ray Atkinson has pointed out that at least on Cape Buffalo, the only real way to kill them is to cut a big hole, that let's them bleed to death quickly, or a brain or spine shot.
He's also pointed out that in his observations, this is best done with a larger bullet diameter.
I like being able to shoot a lot, so cast bullets are a great alternative for me, to jacketed stuff.
Using a larger caliber, bigger bullet, at less speed, gives me usually, more energy down range. It also ends my worry about bullet performance, and I don't have to pay 5 bucks for some overpriced hunting bullet, when a 1/2 cent of lead will do the job.
People used old Sharps rifles, with large lead bullets, and killed more buffalo and bear then we can imagine, in this country.
With a little sprucing up around the corners, I don't have to make the ammo makers THAT much richer...
gs
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I love 45
santilli@singleaction45.com
[This message has been edited by Indiana Tone (edited 02-09-2002).]
quote:
Originally posted by 350RM:
I would like to say yes, but our silly laws prohibit "military" round for hunting use.
So I cannot use any factory 308 or 223 either...
Olivier
I always thought the French were silly. I hear the .243win, .270win, and 7mm Rem mag are popular there. What are your domestic calibers?
I feel the same,but didn't need to read it..............
Most people like smaller calibers. I like 30-06 because I don't have to worry about bullet performance, as much as I would with a small caliber bullet.
The comments that an 06 is limited, velocity wise, with heavier bullets doesn't hold much weight with me. I don't see 2100-2400 fps as a limitation on bullets that weigh 220 grains. I see that as an IDEAL speed for those bullets.
Therefore, all the people that object to the 30-06 because it doesn't generate enough velocity, to me, are not reasons not to buy the 30-06.
Your choices for caliber, are based on a flatter shooting, smaller diameter bullet, that, you hope, the bullet will expand correctly.
I can use a larger initial bullet, more diameter, and, with a 150 grain bullet, is pretty much flat, to 300 yards,at 2900 fps muzzle velocity, with a federal factory load.
I wonder if, the larger the initial caliber, geometrically the larger the expanded hunting bullet diameter????
gs
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I love 45
santilli@singleaction45.com
quote:
You are thinking too hard and haven't killed enough critters............
Exactly!
quote:
And what animal in North America eats 220 grain 30-06 bullets at 2400 fps, and keeps running, or eats you?
Any animal much past 250 yards. Using the Sierra 220 RN as an example of a "non-premium, non-Matchking standard hunting bullet" with a 225 zero you'll be nearly 4.5" high at 125 (shooting over the back at midrange!) and 10" low at 300. You don't need a range finder to hunt at 0-300 yards with a 300 Mag. Even if you use one, you had better live somewhere that there's no wind. There are some wide open spaces out west where if you limit yourself to 250 yds you may go home empty-handed.
Of course, you can choose a lighter, more efficient bullet in the '06...but a 300 Mag would shoot the same bullet faster. Looking at it another way, a 300 mag will shoot a heavier bullet at the same velocity.
quote:
Using a larger caliber, bigger bullet, at less speed, gives me usually, more energy down range.
The above load has a world-beating 1310 ft-lbs of energy at 300 yds and a mere 999 at 400. If your above generalization was true, long range hunters would use 375's, 416's, 458's, etc. They don't. They use 338 and smaller caliber rounds with big, fat cases that hold lots of powder in rifles with long barrels. They do this for a reason.
Like I said before, there's nothing wrong with the 30-06...but I think you're stretching it a bit here--trying to make it something that it's not.
If you can afford an extra $0.50 or so for premium bullets and you can handle the recoil, the 300 mags will do anything the '06 will do...and much more.
You guys can't allow for bullet drop, at extreme yardage, to me, just means you aren't very good at shooting.
I could, and still can, use a range finder, and figure bullet drop, at range.
I guess, if firing at long range, on hilly terrain, your zip caliber rifles are an advantage. Sort of idiot proof, long range, deer shooting.
I just like bigger diameter bullets...
If I need to fire long range, at something, I would like a long barrel, lighter bullet, with large diameter, rather then taking a 308 bullet, and pushing it out of a RUM cartridge.
Don't say your solutions don't work, just like mine better.
I will say, and have said, the rum cartridge, and the bigger cases, are sexy, but, inefficent.
Too much powder, for velocity that I think is excessive. But, I'm a max 2700 fps type of guy,(laughing as he looks at 150 grain sierra bullets, at 2900 fps, factory ammo).
Jon:
As I stated above, I don't need to use heavy bullets to fire at game over 200 yards.
I found some light 30 caliber bullets(110-130)that did 3200fps out of an 06. WILL THAT DO THE JOB? Flat as an average model...
What do you need to kill a deer? 38,000 fps, with a 2 grain bullet????????????????:roll:????
A 300 Mag reminds me of a sleg hammer used to kill a mesquito. Yes, it works, and it works better then a fly swatter, only if you can hit the mesquito with the sledge...
I've got one rifle I kept 25 years, and, it's a 30-06.
I haven't shot the barrel out, because I don't like magnums. At a certain point, velocity is destructive to gun, and barrel.
I will say, I don't have that problem. I don't have a big, sexy case like the 300 magnum, but, I have an efficent cartridge, at that caliber, that does the job. If you want to go overbore, and waste a bunch of powder, so you can jerk yourself off, thinking the cartridge you are using is God's gift, I beg to differ.
The ideal cartridge is the one, in that caliber, that uses the least powder for the best ballistics. Depending what your goals are, that's either 308 or 30-06.
300 Mag is what should really be used behind a 375, or 416 caliber bullet. Then you start getting results that justify the use of such a monster case.
375 RUM= getting close to good.
458 RUM=good.
gs
PS: Except for the 50 shooters longrange club, most 30 caliber long range shooters are either wimps, or cheap.
Better ballistics are avalible, moving up in calber, and bullet length.
The 50 is by far the best BC coefficent, and, the heavier the bullet, the more
impact down range. So, all this praise for 300 Mags just tells me they are wimps, not capable of shooting a REAL caliber rifle, like 375, 416, 458, or .50.
Or, they are just cheap bastards, that want to fire a cheap, light recoil round,like the 30 caliber Sierra matchking, so they can practice a lot.
Damn bench rest guys use 300 Mag, since, off the bench, that's the max their shoulder can take.
If they hunted, they might use a man's caliber, starting at 375, off hand, but, then, they wouldn't be able to fire it off their car...
Or, maybe they could, considering they would have 100 pound guns for 375 shooting, if their 30's weigh 60 pounds...
Darn, by their standards, I'm right in the group, using 50 BMG, or 105 mm. Course, I use a tank, but, it's not much different from their platform...
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I love 45
santilli@singleaction45.com
quote:
You guys can't allow for bullet drop, at extreme yardage, to me, just means you aren't very good at shooting.
You plan on using a laser rangefinder and adjusting your scope according to your verified drop chart? For shots under 300 yards? If not, you can estimate range better than anybody that's ever lived? With the load above, your bullet is dropping 5 inches every 25 yds when you approach 300. If your range estimate is off by 35 yds, guess what happens? Shit, my 300 is zeroed at 300 yards!
quote:
I found some light 30 caliber bullets(110-130)that did 3200fps out of an 06. WILL THAT DO THE JOB? Flat as an average model...
Yes, it will kill a deer--if you hit it. Look at wind drift differences between a 130 launched at 3200 and a 180 of the same style (much higher BC) launched at 3200...or 3500. If you're going to be shooting something at anything longer than spitting distance, accuracy should matter to you.
Exactly what kind of groups does your rifle shoot with 130's at 300 or 400 yards? Ever hunted elk near Gardiner Montana? Good luck finding a shot when the wind isn't blowing hard as hell there.
quote:
If I need to fire long range, at something, I would like a long barrel, lighter bullet, with large diameter, rather then taking a 308 bullet, and pushing it out of a RUM cartridge.
Large caliber, light bullet = low BC. At long range even the slightest breeze blows such a bullet all over the place.
quote:
So, all this praise for 300 Mags just tells me they are wimps, not capable of shooting a REAL caliber rifle, like 375, 416, 458, or .50...Damn bench rest guys use 300 Mag, since, off the bench, that's the max their shoulder can take.
A 300 RUM with full power loads kicks harder than a 375 H&H. Before you call somebody using the round a "wimp," try shooting something bigger than your "very wimpy '06."
Do you not see the irony? Somebody that shoots an '06, calling 300 mag users wimps because they don't shoot something bigger? And yet he feels even the "wimpy" 300 mags are overkill for the game but are only shot by "wimps" that can't handle the recoil of a real rifle...like an '06???
Soc, man, go do some hunting. Like I've said before, since you have never hunted before you simply haven't a clue. When you're "out there" and a deer or elk appears "somewhere between 200 and 400 yds" but is rapidly disappearing...you don't have time for a range finder. You can't estimate the range within 25 yds. You either have a rifle that can get the job done, or you (if you are an ethical hunter) don't pull the trigger and go home empty-handed.
In that situation, I'll choose a rifle that can get the job done. Even if it is a stupid, worthless Magnum.
Sometime back in the 1960's, a gunwriter by the name of Jon Sundra did an article called"The 30-06 is a ballistics has-been." From that point on, I figured he did not know his rectal oriface from one very deep hole in the ground, and I have considered his writings since to be just as useless. Now I read someplace where is is being considered by some as the current Dean of American gun writers. Never in my book.I'll always have more than one rifle. I'll always shoot ammo I manufacture. I'll always find a better solution to the task I tackle,than the 30-06. None of that is hard to do.
Weighing in with thoughts of men from a bygone era,is a little goofy. Their choices were sound then,but the door has been opened MUCH wider,since that time.
If you can trick yourself into thinking the 30-06 is without peer today,that is wonderful. Just don't figure others to be swayed so easily.
The tide has changed and things aren't as they once were.................