Okay seems like there are those like me who like to see exit wounds and those who like the bullet to stay in and deposit all its energy.
I figure that when you get right down to it you shoot something to make holes in it, and two holes are better than one. Most high powered rifles still deposit insane amounts of energy in a target even if the bullet penetrates all the way through and if it exits you know it destroyed everything in between.
I know others say secondary frangments and all do damage but I don't buy it. Elk are though animals and I figure too much penetration is better than too little... penetrating all the way through the vitals is better than not penetrating enough. And elk can go a long ways on one lung and the prospect of shooting a bullet that may be reduced to a small pile of shrapnel upon impact is somewhat disconserting for me.

What are your thoughts?

There are way too many aspects of the old "killing power" debate to discuss fully, but in a nutshell, I prefer tough bullets that stay together and penetrate. They don't have to stay inside the animal to kill well, but they must penetrate. The real keys to killing power are (nothing new here!) bullet placement, bullet construction, penetration, then delivered energy.

Colonel Townsend Whelen said it best: "The placement of the bullet is everything. The most powerful weapon made will not make up for poor marksmanship." ..... Something like that, from memory. Anyhow, the Colonel was right!

AD

What he said! (Allen Day)

Also, somewhere on our forum is a regular contributor that has a signature of "a well placed shot is worth 1000 foot pounds of energy". That too, says a lot!

All I am going to say is this. The wound channel size is a function of two things.

1.) Bullet diameter (including the final upset diameter after the bullet after it has expanded).

2.) Bullet length.

Therefore the bigger the bullet the bigger th hole (common sense). As Allen said shot placement is key.

So use the biggest rifle you can accurately shoot. Use bullets which can handle the impact energies; therefore, not distegrating upon impact. Finally, put that projectile in the animal's vitals.

Feel free to argue away.

Todd E

[This message has been edited by Todd E (edited 04-27-2002).]

Bullet placement is first but the bullet MUST hold together to penetrate to the vitals. When you take into account the presentation of the animal, distance, your muzzle velocity & size of the animal, you are really asking alot form a big game bullet. This is the reason I hunt w/ NPs or other semi-premium bullets. I can control the velocity & to a certain degree the distance, but I have little control over the presentation or size of the animal. I want a bullet to hit vitals from any reasonable angle (not a texas heart shot) & if the bullet exits, fine. The theory works so far as I have yet to loose an animal & have recovered only one bullet.

Once you have bullet placement, the rest of the equation is the ratio of bullet length to caliber, bullet construction and velocity. A long for caliber, well constructd bullet will leave a large amout of "shank" behind an expanded head. You do need enough velocity to expand the head and penetrate bone and muscle. A target type bullet MAY not hold together as well on impact with bone so MAY not be as successful. Too much velocty may be it's undoing also. That is why the 6.5x55 is so successful on big game up to moose with 140 gr. bullets. Long for caliber bullets and enough velocity to get it done. Those same ratios can be transfered to any other bullet, weight, velocity combinations with a successful results depending on the game you are shooting. I hope that all makes sense to someone out there.

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From my cold, dead hands!
Thanks Chuck!

I'm one that subscribes to the theory that a bullet, to do maximum damage, should exit if for no other reason than the fact that exit wound bleed freely and extrance wounds have a tendency to close up and not bleed very much.

I would say bullet placement is the most important factor followed by bullet construction.Lighter weight premium bullets can penetrate as well as heavier conventional bullets.If you honestly believe bullet length is so important you should use a bullet such as the barnes x or swift scirrocco as they are longer than almost all other bullets of similar weight.

[This message has been edited by stubblejumper (edited 04-27-2002).]

allen day,

What does the delivered energy do to the animal? does it do more damage...?

Tood E,

What does the bullet length do to the wound channel...? why does it make bigger wound channels...?

FarRight,

Why do you think that the secondary frangments dont do damage to a bigger animal like the elk...?

I think that the bullet has to penetrate as deep as possible and with the biggest diameter. If a bullet lose much weight then the expanded diameter is smaller.

I've always looked at this issue in this way:

There are two ways to bring down an animal.

First is oxygen loss. If a major artery is hit, an animal will bleed out and loose muscle control in a couple minutes. If an animal is hit in the lungs, it may take quite a while for the lungs to fill up with blood and suffocate the animal.

Second is a shock to the nervous system, aka severing/damaging nerves. This can also be done by deposited energy transferred through tissue.

So when I hunt large game, I always use a bullet that will fully penetrate aka Nosler Partition, etc.

Most of the weapons I hunt with are loaded to 2400 fps or so. I usually don't use "premium" bullets as I don't feel they expand sufficiently because these "premium" bullets are designed to withstand high impact energies generated by high impact velocities. I use Woodleighs and they have always served me well. To me they are just as "premium" as a Swift or TBBC.

The reason the length of the bullet is important (other than the fact that a longer bullet is typically heavier and therefore has a higher section density) is that almost without exception a bullet will turn 180 degrees or more i.e. tumble during it's path through the target. Therefore the longer bullet will make a bigger hole when it does in fact tumble.

Again if you do not hit the target well then the size of the hole is not as important anymore.

Todd E

Tood,

Do you think that woodleigh 750 grain bullet will hold together at 2600 f/s from a 577 t-rex if you shoot it in a 200 kg moose. the swedish moose is a soft animal if you prepare with a buff

I once had a bullet leave all its energy inside the animal, tracked it down and then had to shoot it several more times to stop it. The first bullet had hit bone and stopped, although it was perfectly mushroomed.

Two things are paramount, shot placement and having enough energy to penetrate through the vitals. Is an exit hole necessary? IMHO only if tracking is going to be necessary and tracking is not going to be necessary if shot placement was good.

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JD

Overkill,

Only one way to find out the answer to your question. As the Nike commercial says... Just Do It!

I would have a second round in that 577 that was loaded to 2050 fps - 2200 fps to use as a follow up if the first bullet disintegrated.

Todd E

Killing power? An animal is simular to a can of Coors, you punch a hole in the sob and let all the beer out!! One dead soldier.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

JD....I'm not much of a tracker and like Elmer I like to do my hunting before I shoot so I want it as easy as possible, especially in the thick stuff and remember time you spend looking for an animal after it is shot is time you could be looking for something else.

Ray, if you punch two holes in a can of coors, you get an empty as lot quicker. At least thats what I have found going to Rangers' games.

Good luck and good shooting

If you graze the can of coors and cut a long slice in it it will empty even sooner but this does not work with game animals.

ETerry,
Absolutly correct.

Stubblejumper,
No s--t!

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

If you open the Coors cans mouth and then knock it over it empties just as quickly as if it had a hole knocked in it. This doesn't work on animals either.

Ray,
Just a suggestion but I would stay away from the analogies with this crowd. Consider for a moment. Your analogy was simular to an IQ test. From there responses back to you it is obvious that these guys are not geniuses. (just kidding around everybody). Besides shooting holes in Coors cans is a terrible waste of mediocre beer.

Todd E

[This message has been edited by Todd E (edited 04-29-2002).]

I like to have my bullets go thru the game(whitetail deer) if at all possible. Will take a lung shot if at all possible. The bullet below was recovered from a deer I shot last season. It went thru the right shoulder, clipped the spine and thru the left shoulder lodging under the skin. There was no exterior blood loss at all. Needless to say that I was greatly relieved that the buck dropped on the spot or I don't know if I would have found him had he ran as the weather had been dry for a few weeks. The bullet is a Win. Pwr Pt 150 grain, 7mm Rem Mag. Distance of shot was about 40 yards. I'd say for a "non" premium it performed rather well. The reason for my poor shot placement was the dreaded "buck fever" over this 200 lb, 8 point.

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Bill

Bill Junior,

To combat buck fever I make myself breathe. At least for me this works as I think I had a tendency to hold my breath. How I got this habit I cannot recall any longer.

Don Martin29,

Does the breathing take care of the "shakes" too? It wouldn't have been that bad but I had to wait about 5 minutes for him to turn broadside for a good shot. That and the antlers were HUGE. Thinking back I dunno if I was breathing or not, guess I would have had to been or I'd have passed out! I'm usually good about the breathing and exhaling before the shot halfway, but this time I'm sure that didn't happen even though I can't recall.

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Bill