I've been pondering this one for some time now and simply can't decide. The 358 Norma is a great cartridge, and I love the idea of using $.06 pistol bullets to fireform brass, plink and zapp groundhogs. Bullets are available in the heavier weights that I like (250+) but are hardly commonly available. And cast bullets abound

On the other hand, the 9.3x64 has a good variety of bullet weights available in the heavier range, and would be closest to my opinion of ideal as a big game round. (elk+)
But there are no budget bullets for me to shoot. I would have to use custom cast bullet for all my practice loads. (not that it's a bad thing) Then there is the matter of brass. Certainly not big problems but concerns.

Or I could build a 375 C-T. If I knew for certain I was going to be going to Africa in '03 this choice might rank higher, but for now I think it's more of an also ran. I just don't think it has the potential to be as versatile as the other 2, and to be honest I just don't like it as well.

I know that the margin between the above named cartridges and the 338 Win Mag is slim to none and the 375 H&H would out perform all listed. I know and don't care.

Does anyone have any input that might help me make the right choice.

DOC

Doc, if tradition counts for anything, go for the 9.3. Otherwise, of the three, I like the 358 Norma. IMHO it makes a good North American hammer. - Dan

If your choice is really between the 358 Norma Mag and the 9,3x64 than it sounds like you would be best of with the Norma. It is a great cartridge and it was a strong contender for myself when bying my latest rifle.

Doc -- I just went through the same thought processes. Seeing Africa a little farther down the road I opted for the .358 STA for my next Alaska trip. I fireform with Sierra bullets at little expense, then fine tune with Northfork or Swift A-Frame. Swift makes the 280 gr and Northfork is soon to make a 270 gr. One of my rifles gets over 3000 fps with the 280 Swift bullet and this is far above the .375 and more like the .378 Wby. I am getting near 3100 with the 250 gr. bullets and near 3200 from the 225 gr. bullets. Someday I will get and shoot something bigger for Africa, my thinking now is a .416 or larger because I am surpassing the .375's with the .358's now. Good luck and good shooting.

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[This message has been edited by phurley (edited 12-21-2001).]

All 3 are good rounds. It would be a hard pick

I seriously doubt you'd see any differnce on game between the three. I thoroughly enjoy shooting cast bullets out of my 35 whelen ackley, and while many pooh pooh the idea, it is very valid, and enjoyable. There are plenty of outstanding bullets available for the 35's, in 250 gr there is the A-frame, X bullet, woodleigh and partition. There is also the 280 gr a-frame which would be my sole pick for the Norma mag. If you have it built with a 1-12 barrel, then you could also use the 310 gr woodleigh.

Damn fine cartridges.

375 H&H seems to be the do all.

But I know one thing, I'm damn sure there is a guy with a lot of experience, who frequents this site, named Ray Atkinson, who is going for the 9.3.

I'm not trying to steal your thunder Ray!

It is just that as I'm sitting here in my office, you have become my favorite gun writer on site! One day, after this latest baby of mine, I'm going on a hunt with you.

[This message has been edited by 1LoneWolf (edited 12-21-2001).]

You could also consider my new best friend the .376 Steyr ( it is built on the 9.3X64 case and measures 9.5X60 in metric terms).

This lets you use the larger diameter bullets, and there are a ton of them out there in .375.

Hornady makes dies, brass and loaded ammunition, and Steyr makes the rifles (see at the GSI web site they are the US of A importer.) www.gsifirearms.com

I took my ProHunter Steyr to Zim in September and took a nice eland with it using the 270 grain Hornady factory load (2,550 fps MV). My rifle has a 20" barrel and weighs 9 pounds and change ready to hunt. Recoil feels very moderate as compared to the .375 H&H.

Recommended...jim dodd

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"if you are to busy to
hunt, you are too busy."

No belt, standard length action, tons(over 2) of power...9.3x64!

9,3X64, WHY? BECAUSE YOU CAN GET IT CHAMBERED IN THE DRUGANOV SNIPER RIFLE. YES SIR, YOU TOO CAN OWN A 5 ROUND SEMI-AUTO ONE GUN ARSENAL! DO YOU REKON RAY HAS ONE OF THOSE STUCK AWAY SOMEWHERE? IF YOU WANT A PEEK THERE IS A LINK TO THEM ON RIFLESHOOTER.COM. I MEAN I'VE ALREADY ORDERED ONE FOR ME AND MY WIFE

Gentlemen,
Do not forget the 9,3x62!
In practical terms no animal will ever recognice any difference between the .358 Norma Mag, the 9,3x62, the 9,3x64 or the .375 H&H.

/Husky

So, the delima is which one? All have their merits.

I was out shoting today, had a 358 Norma at 7-1/4 pounds less scope, 8-1/2 with scope. McMillan stock. A very nice light Elk Rifle that will do the job. Also uses pistol bullets for squib loads. Shooting Norma factory loads with 250 gr Woodleighs. This one is headed to idaho for an Elk Hunter.

And had a 375 Ackley. Shooting 270 grain Speers. Had a 5/8 inch and a 3/4 inch group, at 100 yards. Nice. 22 inch barrel, this one is going to Alaska for a guide.

And Don Goldston's M70 in 416 Remington. Several different bullets, best group of 3/4 inch with the 380 grain GS Custom FN bullet at 100 yards. Also shot the 400 grain Hornady RN and the 350 grain Speer Mag Tip well. This one goes with Don to Africa in May 2002.

Was shooting a 9.3x64 a month ago, this one is on a M98, and is owned by a Elk Hunter that hunts the Coastal Washington Rain Forests. That 286 grain bullet is impressive.

Which one would I pick? If a lot of practice shooting and squib loads are used, then the 358 Norma. Just cannot beat the bullet selection. It's a fine Elk Cartridge.

If Africa looms in the future, then a 375 or a 416. I would opt for the 416 as a single gun battery, and would use 350 grain Mag Tips for Plains game, and the GS Custom FN for a solid. Plus 350 Grain X bullets for that first shot on a Cape Buff.

The 9.3's just do not have the bullet selection for a lot of shooting. Nice caliber, though, I would not be ashamed to pack one into any game area.

The 358 STA: I have built two, and have two more on order. First two were built light, 27 inch barrels, M700 actions, around 8-3/4 pounds with scope. Recoil with full loads is right up there, and if you are recoil sensitive, don't do this. You are touching off over 6000 ft/lbs, so they come back hard. Next two will be on CZ550 actions to take advantage of that 3.85" magazine length, and will have heavy 31 inch barrels. Will be used as long range clear cut rifles for Roosevelt Elk, we call them "Canyon Cannons".

It's Dealer's choice!

[This message has been edited by John Ricks (edited 12-22-2001).]

Well I too have been looking for something different and now belive this is the one for myself. Just thought I would throw this in to the mix.
Want to take a CZ-550-416 Rigby pull the BBL and have a 28" installed using the Lazzeroni
long mag case but have it done in a 35 cal.
There is .006 diff. in the head size and I am hoping this will not present a problem. The rest of the case measurements seem so close that no change in the feeding should be required.
Stock to be a thumbhole with large but and a Triple X recoil pad long in the forend to balance out the looks.
Any comments?

Skip the Lazzeroni details and go with Norma 416 Rigby brass, neck to 35, and have a good time. If you need more info on the rifle building requirements or reamer design give me an email. I have a CZ550 action in work now that will wear a No. 6 Pac Nor barrel and be chambered for 416 Rigby. Contrary to most opinion, the Lazzeroni is based on 416 Rigby brass. I think Norma brass is better, I have had both Norma and Lazzeroni headstamped brass in the shop.

Thanks will send e-mail.

Thanks for all the input gentlemen. I think this is a hard choice that I don't mind making. It isn't like new transmission vs. new rifle or baby food vs. ammo. However I get the feeling that when I choose one for good I'll make the mistake of trading it for another.

Mr. Ricks would it be better to neck down 416 or neck up 338 Lapua? I looked into a wildcat in 9.3mm based on 338 Lapua before I decided I didn't need that kind of range. I think I have decided on the 9.3x64. Hunting rifles are about killing game, and the 9.3 bullets that are available are the best of the best for this purpose. I'll bite the bullet and pay a little more for my practice ammo. Keep telling me what you think. Thank you to the 9.3 crowd, you have converted another one.

DOC

Norma have a FMJ 232 grain bullet used in their "jaktmatch" (practice load), that is very cheap. Check out www.norma.cc.

I don't know of anyone that imports the whole Norma line of bullets into the us. I guess I could pack my suitcase full on my next trip. What should I expect to pay in Sweden? Also, does anyone know of a company that will custom cast a run less than 500 bullets?

DOC

doc another vote for the 9.3. Remember it classifies as a dangerous game round and the 358 doesn't.

I also found Nosler BTs at 14.00 a box which isn't too bad.

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MED

The sole purpose of a rifle is to please its owner

Just to throw some more fuel on the fire, there was a fellow here a couple of years back that built himself a 9.3 on the 300 Win Mag case. Managed to get some decent speed out of the 270 gr speers and the rifle was a tack driver. - Dan

Doc,
With the Swift, Northfork and Woodleigh bullets available you really can't go wrong. .35s up to 310gr and 9.3s to 320gr.
You choose, i can't, i want them all.

9mm makarov bullets are .365 or .366 and are available in 90 and 95gr HP and FMJ. They will shoot out of a 9.3 but a custom (longer)seater plug is required. They are so much lighter than the standard rounds pistol powder is probably the way to go. I did play with this for a while but gave up due to some bad luck with filler. Anyhow if you're really keen and carefull you could get a fantastic practice round not to mention pretty good varminter! Saeed should try it!

[This message has been edited by 1894 (edited 12-28-2001).]

Ray,
Since your back could you weigh in on this?

DOC

Doc,
thats a very difficult question for me and I have wrestled with it for years...since I have a nice H&H in 375 H&H, a 9.3x62 in a J.P. Sauer; A 9.3x64 in a Mauser Custom, whick I just sold a week ago, and have never owned or shot a 358 because I have an old and dear 338 win. So you see its a moot question form here...

But never to be without and opinnion on a gun or hunting related subject I will narrow it down to a 9.3x62 and a 375 H&H and I hope that I will never have to choose between those two, but since I have a 416 and a 404 I'd have to go with the 9.3x62, final answer. Am I a millionaire now??????

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

If you want a short action and a Africa legal how about adding to the list and saying the 375-338 taylor. It seams to me that it would be simular to the 358 norma, use the same action length, and be very close to the 375 H&H in performance. I love 35's and have a 358 win and a 35 Whelen improved and will soon add a 358 Norma, but if Africa is in the cards, the hands down, it's legal, and I can get ammo is the 375 H&H. Not flashy, but it will get it done, just like it has for a very long time.

I think Speer's 270 grain 9.3 bullet is available from some of the larger mailorder houses for $10 to $12 per box of 50...