A (funny) lesson for us all

11 May 2002, 02:07

1894

We got to talking about rifles etc a little bit over a beer. One of the Swedes cleans his barrel insided annualy, one a touch more if it gets wet and one his 6.5x55 once in 8 years and his 222rem once in 20years! He was the one who shoots the most with 2 lynx, wolf, lots of moose and countless roe mounted on his wall at home. His scope is unbranded, his rifle rusty with the butt pad crudley removed to make it fit and he is the best stalker/hunter it has been my privilege to meet!

11 May 2002, 02:51

<JerrBear356>

Yeah, but he isn't going to be wining any benchrest competitions with that attitude, I can guarantee it. I have a 7mm Rem Mag my father had Jim Borden build 12 years ago and with good care it still shoot .3 inch groups. I don't think that guy's rusted out P.O.S. can do that.
However, I am not making fun of the man's hunting skill. In fact I am even more impressed because he isn't going to be taking long shots so he must be able to get close to the animals.

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11 May 2002, 07:42

<jeremy w>

I know a guy that uses the pie plate method for deciding if a rifle has acceptable accuracy. He has shot more game than most of us ever will. His rifle of choice is a shot out 1917 '06.
Hunting and shooting do not always go hand in hand.

11 May 2002, 10:37

dogtagger

I get a kick out of the endless posts and replies implying that you need a super accurate rifle, in a macho-mag caliber to ever hope to kill game. They (the hyperbola-mag guns) have no purpose to me, as my shots are always at close range. Gime a 308, thick brush and a big buck and I'm in heaven... By the way, my favorite rifle doesn't even have a scope.

11 May 2002, 11:07

p dog shooter

Hunting skill is or can be a major factor in killing game. I like nice rifles so I take care of mine. Over all I find a lot of hunters who don't take care of their gear are not the best hunters there are some exceptions.

11 May 2002, 11:22

Jim in Idaho

I have to repeat this entirely true story every now and then.

I was at a public range outside of Logan, Utah, around 1976. Not much of a range, a couple of crude benches and a flat spot up against the side of a big hill. There were five or six of us sighting in scoped rifles held over sandbags or some other good rest. We were all making those last half inch adjustments. Up comes this beat up Fifties vintage green pickup with a man and woman in it. Out steps a ï¿½Grizzled Old Timerï¿½ right out of Hollywood central casting, three day growth of beard, sweat stained shapeless cowboy hat and all. He proceeds to put a brown cardboard box at the 100 yard line, about as big as might hold a small stove or a big TV set. No target on it, just the brown box. He takes a fairly beat up iron sighted 30-30 Model 94 and fires three shots off hand fairly quickly. He goes back down and retrieves the box. There, pretty much in the middle of one side, is a roughly triangular group about 12 inches in diameter. He takes the box to his wife and says ï¿½Looky there, Martha, she still shoots where she did last year.ï¿½ And off he drives.

As I was returning back to Logan, I passed a farm yard with that same green pickup parked out front. On the barn were nailed more deer and elk antlers than I could count as I drove by. Now maybe those were someone else antlers, but I tend to think not.

Itï¿½s a poor carpenter who blames his tools, and a poor hunter who blames his rifle.

11 May 2002, 12:16

Pecos41

You guys all nail some good points here and a pleasure to read all. I totally agree there is FAR to much emphasis on velocity and trajectory and foot pounds of energy. It's all a lot of guys think of, is how to squeeze the last possible ounce of this from their guns. And it all doesn't amount to a fart in a whirlwind.

Many hunters forget some very basic truths.
First, that almost everything man has killed since the crust of the earth cooled has been done within 100 yds. Will someone tell me what good a 1/10th of an inch better trajectory is going to do me within that 100 yards? Like Zippo!

The second thing everyone overlooks is simply spotting the target to begin with. Most hunters never even see their game until its within 200-300 yards...and in that range almost any intelligently sighted in, adequately powered rifle will work.

Years ago I got on a kick of hunting jackrabbits at "extreme ranges." I put scopes on my rifles up to 16 power and carried 8X binoculars and hunted and hunted.
Finally I realized that it was dang near impossible to spot a jackrabbit over 300 yds. Most were around 200-225 before I could spot them...even with these optics.

I know guys take P-dogs further but they've got a couple of unnatural advantages. They know exactly where the dogs are and the game is played in a very open arena.

90% of all game animals don't make it this easy for us.

The point to this long-winded post is simply in the real world the endless quest for velocity and energy and flatter trajectory is just a bunch of baloney. The fastest way hunters can improve their scores is simply to become better shots and more familiar with their guns...and that won't cost them anything but a little practice.

Always remember:

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A well placed bullet is worth 1,000 ft/lbs of energy.

11 May 2002, 13:02

RMK

With the exception of coues deer and the remote instance while hunting antelope. A person has to go out of their way to find game at extreme ranges. The vast majority of elk are killed well inside of 200 yards and most under 100 yards. The majority of long range shots on elk,are the result of chasing elk in vehicles,on horseback or foot. When the time is taken to actually hunt,the shots tend to always be shorter and that goes for elk,deer,and most every other big game or trophy animal. Long range shooting is usually the result of piss poor hunting skills,by someone who is to lazy or out of shape to hunt.

11 May 2002, 13:45

<centerpunch>

[ 06-15-2002, 02:09: Message edited by: centerpunch ]

11 May 2002, 16:04

franke

If you are a good enough Hunter,you don't need any super accurate or super powered rifle to bag a deer.
One of the most succssful deer hunters that I ever knew,never owned any rifle,at all. He got his deer every year with his Stevens double barreled 12 gauge shotgun.
Frank

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Frank

11 May 2002, 18:52

Brian M

Unless you plan on taking shots at game at long ranges,you don't need an accurate rifle.Heck,if you don't plan on taking shots of game past 100 yards,and take only shoulder/heart/lung shots,any rifle capable of putting two or three shots into a 18 inch diameter circle from an improvised field rest is plenty accurate to kill any game ranging from deer on up to moose on this continent.

I've got a friend who manages to kill a buck every year.His 30/06 is sighted "dead on at 100 yards".This is really quite funny,since from the few times I've shot with him,I've noticed his '06 is sighted in about 8 inches high at 100 yards.He kills his bucks every year though.He gets buck fever REALLY bad,but at the end of the day he has more fun than I do with my cool head.

There's a guy here in town that likes to hunt a piece of rather rugged mountains in this area.You can see bucks quite a distance off.After his first year of hunting,he built a rifle because his current rifle (don't remember what it was)didn't shoot flat enough for those "long shots".

SO,he built a 7x300 Weatherby (today's 7 STW)that ended up weighting 14 pounds once he put a 6.5x20 Leupold on it.The thing was pretty darn accurate (less than 0.5 inch at 100 yards)too.

So he packed this 14 pound rifle for five miles back into the rather rugged country,and killed about the prettiest 4x4 blacktail you could ask for at the ultra-long range distance of about 40 yards.He then had to pack the buck AND that 14 pound rifle 5 miles back to his rig,when he could have been packing that buck and a 6 or 8 pound rifle in just about any caliber from 22/250 on up.That buck didn't know it was shot with an ultra accurate,ultra flat shooting,ultra presicion rifle.You could have shot that buck with Uncle Bob's ancient 30/30 and he would have flopped over just as dead,and it would have been a lot easier to pack to.

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I'm out to wrong rights,depress the opressed,and generaly make an ass of myself!

11 May 2002, 19:34

ncboman

Generally speaking, those of us that live a good deal off the land cannot afford tackdrivers in differing calibers.

When hunting is putting meat on the table for hungry growing boys, it takes on a little more serious light than some of the unreal threads of the pc crowd on some sites.

Some of the guns I have hunted with can group 2-3" at 100yds, plenty good enough for deer.

My dad had a habit of blowing shotgun cups into deer. I remember asking him how close he would let a deer get before shooting it? I'll never forget the look when he said, "when it bumps the end of the barrel."

That was a good day. We were guest on a doghunt in Indian Neck, at the time a beautiful mix of old hardwood and 2nd growth pines. Sandy land, remote.

The old man had sat on the side of a path where the path cut down and there was a natural seat. He was peeling an orange when he heard something behind him. The deer was laying 2 steps from the peels.

most guns group pretty tight at 2 steps.

12 May 2002, 09:03

Arild Iversen

Iï¿½ve seen this more than ones, that "the one rifle hunter" with that batterd -06 harvest his venison every year.
Not interested in guns at all, hardly know what ammo he is shooting other that it is a "soft point".
But some of this guys really know how to HUNT.
Some of us tend to be bitten by the "gadget race", but in most cases it does not improve significantly regarding the outcome of the hunt.
Woodcraft and understanding the nature of the wild is as much worth as all the gismos in the world.
But that said... Iï¿½m very fond of my rifles, my binos, my scopes, knifes, packframes, Gortex clothes.......

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Arild Iversen
~ Ad spes infracta ~

14 May 2002, 01:52

<PCH>

I like when people have ugly old rifles that are scratched and rusty, if they know how to use them. To me it shows they have the right priorities. If your gun is shiny and spotless, you don't hunt enough!!

14 May 2002, 02:01

Pete E

Well, I'll take a different stance on this..
Regardless of what type of equipment you use, it does not take much to keep it in good, servicable order. There is a difference between genuine wear and neglect.

14 May 2002, 03:22

<JHook>

Well I for one cant seem to understand why that "Old timer with the crusty, dirty old rifle, and great hunting skills", cant be the "crusty old hunter with great hunting skills and a shiney clean rifle which can split the "X" at 300 yrds".

Ive heard so many variations of the "Ole bastard with the rusty 30/30 taking home the 12 point buck every year" that Im starting to believe its a part of folklore. Maybe its the same "Ole Bastard with tobaccy dribbleing down his chin, with the 3 day stubble" and he just flies around the country visiting shooting ranges. Maybe theres an exclusive "Ole Bastard club" and to get in you not only have to be an "Ole Bastard" but you have to have a rusty 30/30, tobaccy dribbled stubble, a wall of 12 pointers, and a bunch of crusty putdowns for anything new and/or clean/accurate.

I mean, the best hunters/shooters Ive ever seen have been the %2 I would classify as the "obsessed crowd". They might not be the "crusty ole bastards of yore" but they have honed their abilities,hardware,loads, and techniques down to a micron. They hunt hard, from dawn to dusk, have the skill and patience to know when to "set" and when to "move", and have the skill/rifle/load to make anything within a 400 yrd radius "just plain dead".

No insult intended to any of you crusty Ole Bastards, with your rusty 30/30's, out there. Personaly I'd rather have a rusted brain then a rusted rifle..................J

14 May 2002, 05:13

beemanbeme

JHook, you make some good points. Principle among them are the need to hone ones skills, both afield and range, as well as keeping ones equipment in good repair. Unfortunately, in our modern society, too many have the idea that the quest for these skills can be expressed in dollars and cents. The time and effort can be avoided if one spends enough on his whistles and bells.

They certainly know how to "talk that talk", too sad that most of them can't "walk that walk".

14 May 2002, 06:17

Need Just 1 More Gun

JimInIdaho,

Was that Atkinson that you saw?

14 May 2002, 08:28

Jim in Idaho

quote:
Originally posted by Need Just 1 More Gun:
JimInIdaho,
Was that Atkinson that you saw?

Now that you mention it, there WERE a couple of Cape Buffalo horns nailed to that barn as well. And I do believe there was a double rifle in the gun rack in the pickup window, right below that old Model 94.

On another note - it's not just the "grizzled old timers" that I've seen. I hunted once with a fellow back there in Utah (was going to Utah State at the time) who was 19 and carried a box stock Savage 340 bolt action .30-30, open rear step ladder sight and all. We went hunting with a third guy one afternoon after school, had to stop at the sporting goods store for him to buy a box of Remington 150 grainers along the way. I asked him if he needed to sight it in and he asked "why?" as he hadn't fiddled with the sights since the previous season.

We were walking a hillside and a third guy was walking a shallow draw below us, the third guy pushed a deer out onto the opposite slope and began banging away with his scoped rifle, sorry I don't remember the brand or caliber. Anywho, the fellow in the draw emptied the magazine without hitting anything and yelled to my friend to get it. He waited until it stopped at the top of the far ridge and calmly dropped it with one shot from the off hand position. I'd guess that deer was close to 200 yards away when he shot it.

My friend razzed the third guy about that for the rest of the school year.

[This message has been edited by Jim in Idaho (edited 05-14-2002).]

14 May 2002, 09:53

EXPRESS

I'll agree that all we really need are the essentials - just think about what it would have been like hunting with a flintlock...and still they managed just fine. All the rest is just icing on the cake. It is the reason this forum exists, just to let us all talk about these near usless thigs, that can hardly augment our success, but we like to have them, matbe for piece of mind, or just because we like them.
I often go into "overload" thinking about strange crap I could do to improve this or make that better or easier. Then I just think, bugger it all, and remember that all you need is a firearm that works, and you then already have a great advantage over your quarry.

14 May 2002, 10:57

Pecos41

From what I've seen of the crusty old bastard crowd, I'm more inclined to think what is exaggerated in thier story is the care of their rifles. They may be old and worn, but mostly from hard use than just generally letting the gun go to hell. I used to hunt with such a fellow and he owned a cleaning rod and knew how to use both it and the gun.

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A well placed bullet is worth 1,000 ft/lbs of energy.

14 May 2002, 15:25

<Paladin>

There was an old, old adage:

"Beware the man with one gun."

The inference is, he's mastered how to shoot it well....

15 May 2002, 22:22

1894

This person is indeed obsessive about hunting, he works in it 365 days a week, has the most thourough understanding of quarry animals I've come across (I was embarrassed about some of the things I realised I didn't know) and just lives for it.

Regarding his rifle he just has absolutely no care whatever for what it looks like, he just requires it to stick a shot within a couple of inches of the aiming spot!

I would have thought that a quick clean would be wise but thus far he's the one with more game to his name.