Re: wyoming mule deer?

06 July 2004, 17:26

kudu56
hi i seen your post about wyoming unit 125.after probably being the most unlucky hunter to ever try for controlled tags i drew this one. ive been trying for sheep for 26 years in a row. all i knew about this unit was it is a november hunt and there is no general hunt in this area. any information would be apreciated. like buck potential. amount of deer i should see a day . hunting daylight till dark? i think the season is 2 weeks is it worth taking the 2 weeks off work to find a extra nice buck? thanks for your help
mdbrown
ps is snow a factor in that unit?

06 July 2004, 20:29

kudu56

mdbrown I pm'd you!

08 July 2004, 07:29

VarmintGuy

TomP: That about takes the cake!
A Kalifornian (you!) criticizing a fine conservative, pro Hunting, traditional values, capitalist President like George Bush!
I am laughing at your absurdities!
I suppose under your good buddy Al Gore (socialist) we would some how just miraculously have all the cheap power everyone needs and it would be a lot cheaper than it is now! And like in Kalifornia there would be no need to dam, dig or drill for power! Yeah and your ass glows in the dark when you need light too!
Do you have any idea how stupid your statements are?
Do you care?
I have been to reclaimed lands in Montana, Wyoming, Utah and other states and I have seen Big Game and small game on all of those lands!
The reason you and your ilk can not go out on a land then being used to garner power at the time is because of your good Komrades the trial lawyers!
Litigation does not abound in Kalifornia?
Jesus man wake up and look at what is happening around you! And not just in that cheap power state Kalifornia! Again another hardy laugh at you!
Pardon me while I try to quit laughing and try to regain my composure!
There that is better... no I am laughing again give me a second.... ahh let me have a minute please!
Yeah you Kalifornians are real power experts! The leaders of your state are so stupid that they have to buy power from Grand Coulee Dam in Washington state (and from several other dams in Washington state I might add) so do not lecture those that are more in touch with reality than yourself regarding power use.
I have Hunted both Big Game and Varmints in the Wright Junction area and have had good success!
And I thank the folks that are producing power around there for helping to keep my gas, oil and electricity as cheap as it is! My good friend Andi Pfirstinger just called me yesterday from Germany (Kalifornia type country!) and he is paying $1.20 (US Dollar equivalent) per liter for gas! Thats about $6.00 a gallon! Maybe you folks in Kalifornia can catch up to the German Socialist Republic if you keep going like you are?
Fix Kalifornia before you try and tackle a problem you obviously have not understood or analyzed!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

08 July 2004, 05:24

TomP

Quote:

The big mule deer in the area,can be found on coal mine properties and they don't allow anyone to hunt.

Yah, "multiple-use", my ass. Every time I've seen "multiple-use" that involved mineral extraction, it involved no-trespassing signs as well. One time, I saw a drilling site where forest service employees manned the checkpont that closed the road. I suppose with George 43 in full swing, they pretty much have their way with it, eh?

Oh, yes. They say the West Nile virus is playing hell with the grouse population due to mosquitoes breeding in the waste ponds leftover from gas well drilling. The drilling started under Clinton, but now there's a problem and nobody in the federal government admits to knowing anything about it, much less asking the drilling companies to do something.

09 July 2004, 04:23

TomP

Jeez, VG, where to start? Yes, these days I have California tags on the truck. Guilty as charged. However, I don't remember saying Al Gore would have been a better choice, or that power was free. There is such a thing as paying more than you have to, though, and that's been done now and then.

Since you've brought up George Bush, while we were squabbling over how long they can keep gun-purchase records, he was letting Ashcroft's guys into the credit-card database, which doesn't have an expiration date at all ( Admiral Poindexter's Total Information Awareness - no longer a visible government program - is it black now or just outsourced under another name? ). Good or bad ( or mixed )? Of course it is only aimed at terrorists, but universal handgun registration was only aimed at criminals.

The power rip-off...wasn't that something? FERC was so miffed about 'deregulation' that they decided to let California stew in its own juice, or did they? Turns out there was no deregulation, only different regulation, and it had originally been written with an agenda ( paying off nuclear power plant bonds ). In the end, there was no power shortage, only educated thieves gaming the system, and the federal agency in charge of policing those matters sat on its hands until it was over. Bush didn't intervene, or even offer any commentary. Yes, the state officials fumbled the ball when 'deregulation' was put in place. While I am not a fan of Gray Davis by any stretch of the imagination, he didn't have many palatable choices when the power scam came up, and didn't have the sand to make any of the unpalatable ones. Now he's gone. So it goes.

Hmmm...in how many other states can you get rid of a failed governor, without a revolution ( trick question )?

As far as California and drilling, there's been a little drilling here, too. If there's a prejudice about oil companies and the messes they make, it's a learned prejudice in this part of the state. There are still beaches around Santa Barbara where you will have black feet if you walk a quarter mile on what looks like a clean beach.

'Reclaimed land' wasn't the complaint; I don't know much about that and you're welcome to educate me. I do know what I've seen in terms of 'multiple-use' and restricted access. Are you in favor of industrial companies blocking the roads, or not? If so, for what period of time?

Then there's the grouse; should the waste ponds be filled in, or do we just let the grouse go? Si, o no?

I've never been to Wright Junction, mostly hunt around Pinedale. One of these days I'd like to see Thunder Basin, sounds like a nice hunt.

09 July 2004, 05:25

VarmintGuy

TomP: Thank you very much for your pleasingly toned and written reply. I appreciate that!
Having said that I am a bit confused on just one part of your posting. Regarding the Bush, Ashcroft and Poindexter paragraph I am not sure what you are trying to relay to me. I would appreciate you trying to expalin it to me again.
I spent 29 years in Law Enforcement and I will relay this to you if it pertains or as an aside if it doesn't - I have never seen a group of employed people MORE adamant about protecting the Second Amendment than front line police officers. I remember going to a roll call once of about 30 officers. We were BSing and I had an NRA magazine that had 10 serated small postcards in it for signing up and renewing memeberships. You got a nice belt buckle or hat with this offer. I filled out all ten of them and even sold one to a female officer at that one rollcall! Law Enforcement types usually strongly endorse all of our freedoms including the right to keep and bear arms. This includes the Attorney General (now) of the US. It is a fine line keeping guns away from felons and gang members and illegal exporters and just an average sale to a citizen. I do not know what the Attorney General was intent upon doing with credit card sales records of guns but I know I have bought many firearms with credit cards and debit cards and the "jack booted thugs" have not been at my door recently!
No I do not endorse everything President Bush does or his minions but I do know I am way better off with him as President than Al Gore. This goes for energy aspects and firearms ownership and a host of other capitalistic views of the present administration.
I hope things continue to improve in Kalifornia (new Gov.!). I was so sickened by the way things were going in Washington state that 6 years ago I moved to Montana. I was just tired of fighting and losing so many battles with the socialist there. I need a little more tranquility in my life these days. Montana sure provides that.
Thanks again for your reply!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

09 July 2004, 05:53

TomP

Quote:

Law Enforcement types usually strongly endorse all of our freedoms including the right to keep and bear arms. This includes the Attorney General (now) of the US.

They are also the front line for 'recovering' firearms from citizens who are in a little trouble, and they do their jobs, whether they agree with what's being done or not. Getting a 'recovered' firearm back from the police once the dust settles is a tiresome job, from what I've heard. A policeman in uniform is an government employee with a job to do, even if he is a friend when in jeans and boots.

Quote:

I do not know what the Attorney General was intent upon doing with credit card sales records of guns but I know I have bought many firearms with credit cards and debit cards and the "jack booted thugs" have not been at my door recently!

If we oppose gun registration, how do we not oppose unrestricted access by government agencies to credit-card purchases of firearms ( and ammunition and reloading stuff )? The whole point of Total Information Awareness is pattern recognition by computer using an enormous database of credit card purchases ( and who knows what else?). TIA is most likely a 'black progam' at this point with no visibility or adult supervision, and its future uses beyond the stated purpose can only be guessed at. It is not wise to give George Bush presidential powers that we would not want to see in the hands of Bill Clinton.

Quote:

No I do not endorse everything President Bush does or his minions but I do know I am way better off with him as President than Al Gore.

Agreed, probably. While George Bush said he would sign the extension of the assault weapons ban, he also hoped it wouldn't get to his desk. It is not clear to me what Al Gore would have done about that.

Beyond that question is a bigger one; the gun-control/campaign-contribution industry ( of which we are are a part in our role as the loyal opposition ) puts up a lot of money for those politicians who play the game.

Neither the Democrats nor the Republicans want to see that money dry up, so we're never going to see the end of it. A viable third party is the only way out, if there is a way out.

What about the grouse? Do we pay to fill in the waste ponds or let it go? Si or no?

09 July 2004, 07:22

VarmintGuy

Tom P: Thanks again for your gentlemanly response! I could learn something from you!
Tom P - you do have to get out more though!
I have been to Alaska many times! I have been north of the Arctic Divide in both Alberta and British Columbia! And by far the worst Mosquito's I have ever seen have been on the grass and scrub hills and breaks of Eastern Montana - far from any ponds! I was just there again last August and again in early October and suffered from the horrendous numbers of Mosquitos miles from any water! Mosquitos are everywhere on the high plains! They do not have to have ponds to propigate!
Water creates and sustains life! All kinds of life.
My father in the 1930's worked for the WPA hand building small dikes to make reservoirs of winter run off water. He built dams in Oregon, Montana, Wyoming and Idaho. The barren lands burst forth with not only grass in the formerly barren lands but Game Animals and Game Birds proliferated where few or none had been before. Granted the main purpose of these resrvoirs was to enhance the Cattle industry! My father who was quite a Hunter and outdoorsman in his youth remembers the very day his crew of depression era young men saw their first Antelope! Literally 60 some years later he was touring the west in his Toyota mini-motorhome and visited the same places they had built the crude reservoirs and he relayed to me that the Antelope were now everywhere and the Pheasants in central Idaho were so numerous he ran over a couple! No I do not think that ponds in barren, arid and now in Extraordinary Drought Conditions (the highest of all drought classifications by the way - and unprecedented in many parts of the west!) are causing more harm than good!
I harvest a few Grouse every year including woods Grouse and plains Grouse and have not noticed a lack of them. If there is a dangerous condition to their populations then I would endorse the correction of that condition if possible.
Yes Tom P be careful, VERY CAREFUL who you vote for! The local police, sheriffs, state troopers, city, county, state and federal prosecutors and various federal law enforcement types can only enforce laws that you Tom P., yourself make!
I think also you have gotten off on a bit of a ... "delusional" is to strong a word but "imagined" I think is appropriate, imagined worrisome state regarding secret programs and black ops regarding your citizenship! Mosey on down to Cuba or Mexico (or Canada for that matter) and see if you can muster up 1/10th the Guns Rights that we have here - even in Kalifornia!
Who in Gods name cares if the government at any level knows I buy 2,000 Rifle primers a year and Gunpowder and 4,000 rounds of rimfire ammo? I have never had problem one over decades of doing so!
I have many Guns that are registered and many that are not! Again never a problem. I have recovered myself probably 150+ firearms that had their serial numbers registered in a national computer as being stolen and they got back to the rightful owners or insurance agents!
The ONLY people at present (and in the last 45 years that I know of) that have to worry about the government knowing the serial number and make of the firearms they possess are people that are intent upon or have committed crimes with said firearms! Solution to any worries you might have in that regard Tom P. - don't commit a crime with your firearm! Sounds almost to simple huh Tom?
I agree with your impression of our present state of influence regarding politicians and money. It could be better handled to say the least - but - again those folks sitting on the Supreme Court (that you are responsible for getting into that court!) have allowed the present situation to exist. WE make the laws, WE elect the officials (that appoint some Judges), We instigate referendums and initiatives, we vote for certain Judges and we allow the lawyers of this country to muck up, draw out and abuse the judicial system! So any shortcomings you assuage along these lines are remediable by guess who? You and us!
I saw a guy on TV a while back that endorsed US citizens should be able to own any weapon or destructive device they chose! Up to and including nuclear weapons! Now I simply do not need to have a cannon or a mortar or a flame thrower or land mines or any other destructive device for that matter! Especially bombs or nuclear bombs! How about a laser gun that would slice folks in half and leave no latent evidence (like shell casings, powder burns, rifled slugs etc!). There has to be a limit somewhere on what types of weapons our large community of folks (the country) are allowed to have. For the good of society! Assault weapons as they are currently described are about as far as I am willing to let my neighbors and my mom own! I have never been into assault weapons myself as they fire bullets faster than I can earn money to keep them loaded. But I have owned many hundreds of other guns - including Rifles, pistols and shotguns.
I have no worries what so ever (as of today!) regarding my use, ownership or who knows in the government that I have them!
Could there be problems in the future? Yes! But I am careful who I vote for and a viable third party in my lifetime is just not going to happen! Make the best of what is out there today and that, in my opinion, is the Republican Party and very few selected Democrats! and this comes from a former supporter of such patriotic Democrats as Henry M. "Scoop" Jackson (U.S. Senator from Washington state) and Warren G. Magnuson (U.S. Senator from Washington state).
Long live the Second Amendment and the U.S. of A.!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

09 July 2004, 12:41

TomP

Quote:

Water creates and sustains life! All kinds of life.

I haven't run across so many mosquitoes in the west, maybe just lucky. I remember a NY state pond that looked good on the map but turned out to be a skeeter hole without the redeeming quality of fish, even. Then there was North Carolina's Outer Banks, more skeeters than I've ever seen on a square inch of skin before, even in Alaska ( but with smaller antlers). You have a point about life in a semi-arid place; we frequently hunt water holes for antelope, I just can't remember seeing any mosquitoes.

Quote:

The ONLY people at present (and in the last 45 years that I know of) that have to worry about the government knowing the serial number and make of the firearms they possess are people that are intent upon or have committed crimes with said firearms!

My thoughts regarding the government and information may not be as paranoid as they sound. Imagine the federal equivalent of the DMV with nothing to do but look for gun owners who are a little out of line ( BATF on steroids ). Consider the myriad possibilities for programmers to overreach or make mistakes while writing the pattern-recognition code for finding terrorists from purchases of firearms and supplies ( long lists of mostly OUR purchases ). Not to mention the likelihood that the code will be written in the dead of night over cold pizza ( picture Windows 98 with the potential to earn you a visit from the BATF when it locks up ).

These are the benign versions; there is also the possibility of a federal Sullivan Act if we elect the wrong people. Lord knows we have enough potential authors in the Senate right now, and they only have their heads down because of the last election, and only long enough for us to get complacent. Our own California Senators would be happy to co-author the bill, if Ted Kennedy and his buddies were willing to share the glory.

Agreed that even California isn't as bad as Canada or Mexico. This is the third time I've lived in California and still haven't been to Mexico. One of the times I went to Canada there was a minor fuss at the border when I asked about the rules for taking guns into N.B.; they were obviously unhappy about the prospect and generally discouraging ( maybe just cranky on a working weekend, I dunno ).

Yes, very lucky to be born here...could be much worse, and I've yet to see anything better. There are more reasons than money that immigration in is a lot more than immigration out.

09 July 2004, 13:10

GonHuntin

Quote:

There has to be a limit somewhere on what types of weapons our large community of folks (the country) are allowed to have. For the good of society!

No offense Varmintguy, but this statement really scares me! Why? Because I have heard EXACTLY the same statement from anti-gunners!

Quote:

Assault weapons as they are currently described are about as far as I am willing to let my neighbors and my mom own!

This one bothers me too.......again, no offense, but who are you to decide what weapons your neighbors can own? And, if you have the right to draw the line, then what keeps the next guy from drawing the line a bit closer until, pretty soon, we are in the same boat as Australia????

I believe the 2nd ammendment gives us the right to own any firearm suitable for military use, up to and including machineguns.......and, just an FYI, a flamethrower is not a firearm or destructive device.......in fact, they are not regulated by the BATF period.........

09 July 2004, 13:30

VarmintGuy

TomP: Aahh... the timing of your visits to the high plains! First couple of frosty nights and the Mosquitos are all dead. That often happens in late September early October. My Hunting partner Dick and I year before last had to find a new Antelope Hunting spot and we found this out late in the summer. So in August (we both are retired) we head for Powder River country - not only were we miserable in the 100 degree days but at night (88 degrees!) we were swarmed and tortured by Mosquitos as we lay in our lightweight sleeping bags in the back of the pickup under a canopy shell. The Mosquitos just ate us. They could apparently find the cracks in the tailgate and smell us inside. Walking out to ridgelines even a couple hundred yards from the rig during the day was a test of endurance and ones ability to take shallow breaths so as not to ingest the Mosquitos! Then in October on the Antelope opener (about the 7th as I recall) we cruise out for the Hunt and still have our lightweight bags for camping out in the back of the pickup. It got down to 17 degrees the night before the opener. No Mosquitos but we froze our butts off all night! Moteled it the next night.
Last I heard along these lines there is just now scientific evidence of what kills off the Whitetailed Deer in eastern Montana every so often. They call the "disease" Blue Tongue and whole herds of Whitetails in vast areas of eastern Montana die off every few years. There is a Midge that lives in slow moving or stagnate water that is the cause of this die off. If it does not freeze by a particular date in the fall the Midges somehow overwhelm the Whitetails and they die from swollen tongues (Blue Tongue Disease) and perhaps other maladies caused by the Midges! The amazing thing is that the Mule Deer that live right along side the Whitetails are not susceptible to this malady/disease at all!
Anyway lots of Mosquitos in many many parts of eastern Montana.
A healthy habit of watching out for the well being of yourself and things and people you love is a good thing but to base your concerns on things that might be or may happen someday or that you heard rumors of may be just a bit much! How many of your friends or the folks that live in your town have been locked up for having an unregistered gun? Or for buying guns on their credit cards to often! Keep things in perspective and give it a go trying to get rid of Feinstien and Boxer - you are right that is a pair to draw to!
By the way I attended a recent symposium and workshop here in SW Montana on the Sage Grouse situation. They are Hunted by many folks (including me) but the F&G folks think that there may be a possibility their numbers are dwindling in certain areas of the west. Habitat changing and predators are blamed in this area for the concerns about numbers. I am not sure what if anything may concern the regulators of the Sage Grouse over in eastern Montana. The limit is still 2 a day though. Some talk of Federal regulation is being heard.
I saw a Peregrine Falcon kill a large male Sage Grouse in eastern Montana two years ago in October. The Sage Grouse was much larger than the Falcon and I walked right up on the kill site after a while. And the Peregrine stood there with his wings cupped in a cricle covering the dead bird. I have pictures of the Falcon flying off the kill about 40 minutes after it happened as I passed by them again and it had eaten at least half of both Sage Grouse breasts! That was a lot of eating for a relatively small Falcon.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

09 July 2004, 13:31

kudu56

Tom and Varmit, great posts and good info. I enjoyed both your oppinions.

The power problem will only worsen. THe only power generation being built nation wide of any magnitude is wind turbins. But in time the greenies will shut them down to. If some thing isn't done in the near future the only conservation will be because of high prices.

09 July 2004, 13:55

VarmintGuy

GonHuntin: You of course do not possess the wherewithal, horsepower or ability to offend me so don't worry your punkin head!
You are wrong (obviously) I do not get to decide who owns what! The people I vote for to make and interpret and in some cases enforce laws (I voted for a progun Sheriff here in my county and he won by the way!) do though - and I am careful to vote for those politicians that most closely profess viewpoints like mine.
And I know what is regulated under the destructive devices laws by the ATF and other agencies much better than most. I threw in the flame thrower to get a laugh. Apparently no laugh from you.
Machine Guns are perfectly legal to own in Montana by the way! And I of course enjoy a good machine gun shoot as much as the next guy. And dynamite shoots!
But do you want your neighbor to own a mortar? A bazooka? A 20mm anti-aircraft gun? A crate of Bouncing Betty landmines? A laser that is silent and slices the early morning paper boy in half? Try reality its not so bad!
Yes I carefully vote for and endorse and send money to politicians and judges and sheriffs that have a chance of winning and whos views are reasonable and closely adhere to mine.
If you are so ill informed as to believe that REAL anti-gunners profess the same views on firearms as I do then I wish every voter was like your definition of an anti-gunner!
Your statement in that regard is ludicrous and ridiculous.
Yes I will again state I do not want any of my neighbors owning anti-tank guns or mortars or any destructive device as currently legally described. And yes I do believe that is best for the country. None of the spittle you have prattled off has changed my mind or been of any substantive argument in that direction - what so ever!
And by the way GonHuntin who are you to question me? Lets hear your bonafides!
Ban the Saturday Night Special Bazookas!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

09 July 2004, 15:32

GonHuntin

I certainly don't understand the attitude and arrogance you have shown here! Nothing I wrote was intended to question or insult you. You and I have never had a problem as far as I can remember??

I simply tried to point out that your statement mirrors those of antigunners.....ie: lets restrict something "For the good of society!"

Sounds an aweful lot lot Sarah Brady doesn't it! And, it all sounds good in theory, but, who gets to draw the line on what is or isn't "good for society"?

Secondly, YOUR remarks: "Assault weapons as they are currently described are about as far as I am willing to let my neighbors and my mom own!" Sure sounds like you want to be the one who decides what your neighbors can own.......once again, why is your opinion any more valuable than the next guy's?

I didn't get into this thread to start a pissing match.....in fact, it was YOU who jumped in with both feet and tore into TomP without knowing anything about his "bonafides".....right? Let's turn this around for a minute.......who are you to question him??? Oh, I guess it's alright if you do it???

Fact is, you are the one who needs to take a good look in the mirror and ask yourself why you have acted like a jerk throughout this thread........

As far as what I think my neighbor should be able to own......go back and READ my post......I believe I wrote: "I believe the 2nd ammendment gives us the right to own any firearm suitable for military use, up to and including machineguns".......nothing there about mortars, landmines or lasers.....is there? Why do I think that? Not because it is what I want, because it is what I believe the 2nd ammendment means!

And the flamethrower comment? Well, you wrote: "Now I simply do not need to have a cannon or a mortar or a flame thrower or land mines or any other destructive device for that matter!".......since you put it in the list with "other destructive devices"......I assumed you didn't know the difference......excuse me for simply reading and comprehending what you wrote instead of reading your mind!

Up until this thread, I had a lot of respect for you...... guess I had you figured wrong..........you are right about one thing though......you certainly could learn a lot from TomP's behavior!

09 July 2004, 17:04

RMK

Wright is a piss poor example of wyoming. It started out as reno junction and was named wright in the late 1970's,to house miners. The last 6 years have proven how fucked coal bed methane is. There isn't an open area near wright without a road through it,outside of the durham ranch and its being destroyed also.

Reclamation is one of the few positive things going on in the basin and is really limited to coal mines,the methane industry sure as shit ain't cleaning up after themselves. Theres also plenty of open water around old oil wells and such.

As for the deer die off in whitetails. In wyoming its been hemoraging disease. A gnat is the cause and the deer actually drown in fluids. Harry Harju a long time WYGF biologist claims more deer die from this then all the cwd cases combined yet nobody cares.

10 July 2004, 14:33

43deer

RMK is right (did I say that?)... EHD hammers local populations of whitetails every year in many areas and it's never a big deal. The ranch I hunt was hit pretty hard a couple years ago, and there was an obvious decrease in the numbers of whitetails that fall. The good news is that whitetails can bounce back and recover pretty quickly in good habitat.

Wright is a nice town. Ya, the land around it is trashed but the town is nice.

11 July 2004, 05:37

TomP

On further reflection, I wonder how the waste ponds compare to other water sources; I doubt that there are fish to eat the mosquito larvae as in lakes or running water to discourage them as in rivers. I also wonder what the levels of heavy metals are in those ponds, as much of the water in the west is less than pristine even from wells. I don't think there is much water on the sage flats in any case, where I usually hunt. I should make a run to Farson to look around in summer; too bad I'm working too many hours this summer to make up for last year being so thin.

I haven't seen many sage grouse the last few years, maybe I'm looking in the wrong places. I did see one wing, at a water hole where it was probably eaten...not the first time the natural predators have done better than I did.