The Accurate Reloading Forums
knock down power
25 January 2023, 03:23
canuck4570knock down power
I have a 30-06 and a 375 h@h
I have them having the same recoil. about 25 pound of recoil
the 30-06 shoots a 200 gr bullet at 2530 fps
the 375 h@h a 300 gr bullet at 2150
at 340 yard the 30-06 has about 1800 foot pound of energy and traveling at 2000 fps
at 340 yard the 375 h@h has bout 1600 foot pound of energy and traveling at 1600
knock down power is for the 375 about 23 and the 06 is about 17
the scope is a Swarovski Z8 1-8 and has a ballistic turret so I can dial in for the range
to your opinion your choice for hunting moos
25 January 2023, 04:01
p dog shooterYes.
They both well work just fine.
As long as you place them where they need to be.
So called knock down power comes from proper shot placement.
25 January 2023, 06:00
Lamarhow does something with more energy have less knock down power?
25 January 2023, 06:20
Austin Huntermy rule is simple - if there is a chance of a brown/grizzly bear in the area - take the bigger gun.
Now, my wife is going to use a 308 Win on her moose hunt, but the guide and me will both have 375 or bigger.
"Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid" -- Ronald Reagan
"Ignorance of The People gives strength to totalitarians."
Want to make just about anything work better? Keep the government as far away from it as possible, then step back and behold the wonderment and goodness.
25 January 2023, 06:41
dogcateither is fine.
If you like your .375, load it to do what it was designed to do!
25 January 2023, 07:00
eagle27quote:
Originally posted by Lamar:
how does something with more energy have less knock down power?
Larger frontal area of the projectile and heavier bullet will give the 375 H&H an edge over the 30-06 despite the difference in energy.
Energy figures don't always mean much with pass through shots. The 375H&H will likely dump more energy in a large animal than the smaller calibre with pass through shots however projectile type and behaviour also comes into play. Nobody I know of has actually run tests of remaining velocity of pass through shots in animals in the field so the actual energy dump in animals is unknown.
25 January 2023, 07:38
canuck4570thank you all
25 January 2023, 23:42
ZekeShikarIt's all about tissue displacement, in the correct area, due to bullet upset or bullet frontal diameter....or hitting bone or nervous system.
SD plays a roll in penetration too...along with bullet construction, of course.
Simply, this means hit them correctly with an appropriate bullet design and weight and get your knife out!
A point on moose hunting with the same bullet weight but one is a non expanding and one is expanding: They'll produce the same "book" energy but one fails to displace tissue and the other will expand and have "knock down power" if you will.
I've got to work on my sentence structure, sorry.
My 2 cents...for free.
Zeke
26 January 2023, 21:44
carpetman1There are records of bears killing people in North America for over 100 years and all types of bears wild and domesticated, kill about one person per year in North America. Bee and wasp stings kill many more. So in place of a big gun, get a fly swatter.
All this data makes interesting conversation, but it's all theory except the part about putting the bullet in the right spot.
27 January 2023, 05:46
LamarI understand and believe in the frontal area thing.
that's how cast bullets work.
but they also rely on momentum of energy at their lower speeds.
they also rely on 2 holes in the animal.
the off side skin stretches out a whole lot more than the on side skin stretches in.
just me, but if there isn't 2 holes it's a failure.
27 January 2023, 12:43
p dog shooterquote:
Originally posted by carpetman1:
There are records of bears killing people in North America for over 100 years and all types of bears wild and domesticated, kill about one person per year in North America. Bee and wasp stings kill many more. So in place of a big gun, get a fly swatter.
All this data makes interesting conversation, but it's all theory except the part about putting the bullet in the right spot.
Location location in TX very little chance of being killed by a bear a much larger chance of being killed by bees.
In AK a much larger chance of being killed by a bear and a much lower chance of being killed by bees.
These over all country wide statistics do not tell the whole story.
The same theory is applied to lightning. But location again is the key.
read the link below.
https://www.ammoland.com/2018/...hich-is-more-deadly/27 January 2023, 15:34
SaeedStop trying to make it so complicated.
I can GUARANTEE you, at any distance , say to 500, the moose will never know.
I have killed eland at that distance, with a 270 and a 375.
Both died within a few yards of where they were short.
27 January 2023, 16:32
FjoldThe energy comparison gives you some interesting data:
You're using a very heavy for caliber bullet in the 375 with a relatively low velocity. Since the energy is calculated as 1/2 mass X velocity squared, the velocity affects the energy more than the mass.
In your 375 H&H try a 250 grain 375 bullet at 2800 fps and the energy level at at 350 yards is +2400 Ft-Lbs.
Frank
"I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money."
- Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953
NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite
27 January 2023, 17:00
SaeedEnergy has nothing to do with it.
Destroying vital organs is all we need in hunting to make a quick kill.
Both rifles will do it.
27 January 2023, 21:34
buffybrEnergy is what gives the bullet the power to destroy the vital organs.
NRA Endowment Life Member
27 January 2023, 22:02
ZekeShikarquote:
All this data makes interesting conversation, but it's all theory except the part about putting the bullet in the right spot.
Agreed...except the part you left out where you need tissue displacement.
Destroy the organ, punch your tag. How one arrives at that is totally up to him. Cast bullets can, solids can, expanding can. Like I said, how one arrives is up to him.
Yes, it take energy. It also take penetration and tissue displacement but, agreed, the KING OF ALL is placement of the projectile!
Zeke
27 January 2023, 22:13
crbutlerDownloading the .375 like that, most likely you will experience some failure to expand with the 300 grain bullet.
My experience with solids (which is likely what a 300 grain bullet made for full power use will act like) is that they kill well based on their placement, but they don’t typically kill fast. The animal will run a ways. As with cast bullets, you should hopefully have 2 holes and a good blood trail, but knock down? I’d think irrespective of killing, the bullet showing more destruction of tissue (expanding and faster) will work quicker given identical placement.
27 January 2023, 23:25
Matt NormanLet's not forget bullet construction in this topic. If the bullet whistles right thru and uses X amount of energy burying itself in the dirt...that X energy was not imparted on the critter.
Shot location and bullet construction for the task at hand are as important as numbers.
27 January 2023, 23:53
carpetman1PLACING the bullet in the vital is what kills. Enough energy to get it to the vital is all that is needed.
28 January 2023, 02:10
AtkinsonEnergy, knock down, stopping power, the only thing that counts is velocity and bullet weight and construction, the rest is hog wash..
Load your 375 with 300 gr. bullets at 2400-2500 fps and go shoot a moose and dare a bear to interfere with your hunt or for that matter load your 06 with 200 gr Nosler partitions to 2600-2700 and shoot moose and bears with it..
Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120
rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
28 January 2023, 04:16
HipshootEnergy has NO Value in the equation!
If the bullet reaches and damages the VITAL organ the animal is DEAD!
Some sooner----some later!
Hip
28 January 2023, 04:45
chuck375quote:
Originally posted by Hipshoot:
Energy has NO Value in the equation!
If the bullet reaches and damages the VITAL organ the animal is DEAD!
Some sooner----some later!
Why aren't we all shooting 38-55s instead of 375 H&Hs then?
Hip
Regards,
Chuck
"There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit"
Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"
28 January 2023, 04:54
Hipshootquote:
Originally posted by chuck375:
quote:
Originally posted by Hipshoot:
Energy has NO Value in the equation!
If the bullet reaches and damages the VITAL organ the animal is DEAD!
Some sooner----some later!
Why aren't we all shooting 38-55s instead of 375 H&Hs then?
Hip
A .38-55 is .38 cal. bullet---a .375 H&H is a .37 cal bullet!
A lot of difference right there!!!
Hip
28 January 2023, 08:34
Lamarwhat?.... LOL
375-379??
back to the regularly scheduled 270-7mm discussion.
28 January 2023, 18:06
HipshootThat was posted Tongue in cheek!
Hip
28 January 2023, 18:48
SaeedTaylor made his formula.
And we all know how true that turned out to be!
29 January 2023, 01:23
buffybrquote:
Originally posted by Hipshoot:
Energy has NO Value in the equation!
If the bullet reaches and damages the VITAL organ the animal is DEAD!
Some sooner----some later!
Hip
It's basic physics: Energy = Mass (the weight of the bullet) times Velocity squared
Without velocity, the bullet is just a piece of lead and/or copper sitting in the chamber of your rifle. There is no velocity until the energy of the burning powder pushes the bullet out of your rifle.
As soon as the bullet (or any other solid object) starts moving it has Kinetic Energy. It is this Kinetic Energy that moves the bullet through the air to your target, and depending on how much Kinetic Energy the bullet has at the point of impact (along with the shape and construction of the bullet) determines how deep the bullet will penetrate into the target.
Energy IS the value of the equation!
Any reduction in the Weight of the bullet or the Velocity of the bullet will reduce the Kinetic Energy of the bullet which will reduce the depth that the bullet will penetrate into the target.
NRA Endowment Life Member
29 January 2023, 04:49
HipshootTell that to the old bison hunters of the early west!
Hip
29 January 2023, 06:13
sambarman338I think the energy lost by a bullet passing through can be derided unfairly. Not only does the exit hole help in finding blood if the critter runs but the channel made should assist with the killing effect of blood loss and extra tissue destruction. Wanting all energy expended within the animal requires an assumption that it will be hit in exactly the right place at exactly the right angle.
A long, slow bullet that exits may kill but not quickly; a faster one may waste more energy against the hill but has probably done more damage as it went through.
The ability of a bullet to penetrate deeply is also of use with 'Texas heart shots', in which case it may or may not exit.
29 January 2023, 08:01
SaeedLots of misconceptions here.
Bullets passing through is no guarantee that you will see any blood.
I have seen this many times, and was very surprised by it.
Bullets have their own mind how they behave once they hit an animal.
I have seen occasions where they made absolutely no sense at all.
The same bullet, out of the same gun, would penetrate an impala from end to end.
It would penetrate a buffalo from end to end.
Why?
An impala is a lot smaller.
29 January 2023, 16:52
KanecI’m believer of your run of the mill 7mm/30 calibers
Light reliable and no shortage of bullet varieties
29 January 2023, 22:32
buffybrquote:
Originally posted by Hipshoot:
Tell that to the old bison hunters of the early west!
Hip
Tell what to the old bison hunters of the early west???
I doubt that the early
buffalo hunters knew anything about physics, but they knew that to successfully kill the number of buffalo that they did, they needed a more powerful rifle than the .36 and .45 caliber longrifles that had been used in eastern deer hunting.
Velocity is limited using black powder and lead bullets, so to increase the power of their rifles they increased the size of their bullets.
Enter the .54 caliber Hawken rifle that became a favorite of the early buffalo hunters.
When I shot my buffalo I could have used any of my modern rifles from my .22-250 to my .375 RUM. I chose my .54 caliber Hawken with a 435 grain Maxi Hunter lead bullet.
He dropped at the shot then got back up, but before I could get reloaded, he ran 20 yards and fell dead.
, but
NRA Endowment Life Member
30 January 2023, 04:30
HipshootBuffy,
You shot a low velocity rifle using black/substitute powder.
Look at what you posted----You are contradicting yourself!
Hip
I may be wrong (often am) but I think the Buff hunters preferred the Sharps rifles---not the Hawkins! Actually, they probably used whatever they had.
P.S. Congrats on your Bison!
Hip
30 January 2023, 05:13
sambarman338quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
Lots of misconceptions here.
Bullets passing through is no guarantee that you will see any blood.
I have seen this many times, and was very surprised by it.
Bullets have their own mind how they behave once they hit an animal.
I have seen occasions where they made absolutely no sense at all.
The same bullet, out of the same gun, would penetrate an impala from end to end.
It would penetrate a buffalo from end to end.
Why?
An impala is a lot smaller.
I'm not wishing to deny your extensive experience in these things, Saeed, but a bullet that exits would seem to have at least twice the chance of leaving a blood trail as one that does not. Also,
most soft point bullets tend to leave bigger holes going out than coming in.
FMP bullets are more likely to exit and obviously leave smaller wounds - but still have a place, esp. in Africa. One problem there is that with herd animals a second animal might also be hit. Some of the sambar hunters using hounds here change the ammo when a bail-up occurs, fearing an exiting bullet might hit a dog.
30 January 2023, 09:11
carpetman1Exit holes are mentioned and I've heard several theories as to why the exit hole can be much bigger than you would ever flatten a bullet out to that size. For example I've seen a 150 grain bullet from a 30-06 leave a 6 inch exit hole. If you took a huge hammer and flatten a 30 cal bullet out to 6 inch it would be such flimsy material it wouldn't cut through anything. How did we get a 6 inch hole?
30 January 2023, 12:29
Saeedquote:
Originally posted by carpetman1:
Exit holes are mentioned and I've heard several theories as to why the exit hole can be much bigger than you would ever flatten a bullet out to that size. For example I've seen a 150 grain bullet from a 30-06 leave a 6 inch exit hole. If you took a huge hammer and flatten a 30 cal bullet out to 6 inch it would be such flimsy material it wouldn't cut through anything. How did we get a 6 inch hole?
Depends on the angle, and what the bullet hits.
On the other hand, I have seen bullet holes that actually close up.
The animal is dead within a hundred yards, and not a single drop of blood.
30 January 2023, 18:06
Timbavatiquote:
Originally posted by canuck4570:
I have a 30-06 and a 375 h@h
I have them having the same recoil. about 25 pound of recoil
the 30-06 shoots a 200 gr bullet at 2530 fps
the 375 h@h a 300 gr bullet at 2150
at 340 yard the 30-06 has about 1800 foot pound of energy and traveling at 2000 fps
at 340 yard the 375 h@h has bout 1600 foot pound of energy and traveling at 1600
knock down power is for the 375 about 23 and the 06 is about 17
the scope is a Swarovski Z8 1-8 and has a ballistic turret so I can dial in for the range
to your opinion your choice for hunting moos
30 January 2023, 18:14
TimbavatiI have used a 375HH as a plains game and mountain rifle for 20 years. The rifle was custom built to shoot the 270gr Barnes TSX bullet. Great results. I now shoot the LRX with even better results. Point is that I have dug more TSX bullets out of animals than any other. This means the TSX bullet gives up all of its energy because of it's design. If your rifle can shoot the TSX, try it. You also need a Nightforce scope, just saying.
30 January 2023, 21:55
MARK H. YOUNGft/lb is just a number. I agree with Ray. Velocity and bullet construction are what's important.
Mark
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https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 30 January 2023, 22:34
carpetman1quote:
ft/lb is just a number. I agree with Ray. Velocity and bullet construction are what's important.
Take a bullet so well designed it would make Dolly Parton look flat chested and drive it at mach 2 into the wrong spot on an animal and you'll find bullet placement is the important part.