I just wanted to add something.

The Zeiss conquest has 4 inches of eye relief. This is 4 inches of constant eye relief. A comparable Leupold has 4.6-3.6 inches of eye relief based on the magnification. Your reasoning is thrown out the door. So at some magnifications the Zeiss has more eye relief. There isnt one good german or austrian scope maker that has "variable eye relief". Maybe Leupolds got the "vari" thing stuck in their head when they came up with the name of their scopes and wanted variable eye relief as well...

Now what are you going to say to discredit european scopes?

1. The "Why Leupold?" scope over othere is another Ford/Chevy, 30-06/7mmRem Mag, democrat/republican, etc. pissing contest... Let's stick to our OBJECTIVE (pardon the pun) feedback not "my opinion is better than yours, so you must be an idiot if you don't agree" attitude. Most of the feedback is good. Keep the personal attacks out.

2. Compare apples with apples.. I see people comparing Svorski (sp) with Leupold - not in the same price range for this discussion.

3. I happen to be a big Leupold fan and own 3 Leupold Vari-X 3 scopes and just ordered a Mark 4 CQ/T for my Wilson Combat UT-15. However, I don't think of the non-believers as idiots!

4. Buell (and others), don't take this discussion personal.

5. My friend has 2 Kahle (sp) scopes and I am impressed with them... However, he admits the Leupold warranty and customer service is 2nd to none.

6. Everyone is entitled to their opinion without ridicule... I learn a great deal from you all because of an open-mind. It's everyone's opionions that allow me to make a confident and sound purchasing decision - whatever it is!

7. God Bless America and its freedoms!

My 2 cents...

------------------
NRA Life member

quote:

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Originally posted by tsturm:
Monz, Buell, Do your very EXPENSIVE european scopes come with a "UNCONDITIONAL FOREVER WARRANTY"

[/B]

---

WELL?

Here goes, nothing personal. I shun Euro scopes because most of them do not have waterproofed turrets, unscrew the caps and soak one overnite in the sink. Some of the Euro scopemakers have corrected this design oversight due to this flaw brought up in John Barsness's book "Optics for the Hunter". Read a copy if you get a chance. Most of the Euros are heavy and overpriced. Furthermore over here in the States, you simply receive far better customer service from Leupold than the Euros, this is fact. I use Leupolds extensively and yes I do come home empty handed, its called "hunting". I have never came home empty handed because of a failed scope though. How long has Zeiss offered their "Conquest" line of scopes? Was it because they wanted to compete with Leupold? No deserter here! sure-shot

P.S. I'm running out of wall space in my house, common dilemma with us Leupold owners.

They are so d**n good they dont need any lifetime warranty to attract customers.
Leupold on the other hand, does not have anything but the warranty and eye reliefe.
If you dont got the money to buy a decent scope, fine buy your Leupold and get use for the warranty...

This discussion was to ask why people buy Leupolds instead of other scopes. Swarovski is another scope. Most of this discussion so far has been comparing them.

I will ridicule anyone who uses "facts" that simply arn't true. Most Americans dont know enough about the Euro scopes to make a valid argument against them. That is the simple truth. Would you ridicule a anti-gun person going around saying false statements about guns? I think so...

I admit that Leupolds are good scopes for what they are, but that is not to say that they are the best, nor would I ever buy one.

TSTRUM-

I have no doubts that if you had a European scope and it broke they would fix it for free. Some things just dont need to be said for people to buy their scopes. They have other selling points besides a warranty.

Sure-shot:

You are blabbing again.

European scopes are not heavier as a rule...

Here ARE the facts, not your myths.

Swarovski 3x10 A-line series riflescope.
Weighs 12.5 ounces. Comes with a lifetime warranty. Cost: just over 700US

Zeiss conquest 3.5x10. Weighs 14 ounces.
Lifetime warranty. 500US

Leupold Vari x3 3.5x10. Weighs 13 ounces
lifetime warranty. 475US

Leupolds, as I just pointed out, are in some cases heavier then a European scope, and in Zeiss' cases it is lighter, but only by 1 ounce.

However, once people get into the 30MM scopes, ofcourse they are going to be heavier, goin up to about 22ounces, but the Leupold LPS which is 30MM is around 20 ounces... and isnt made of steel...

I know Schmidt and Bender, Zeiss and Swarovski scopes are waterproof with out the turrent caps. The older scopes were pretty bad when it came to this, but that is in the past. Hell I have a Weaver K3 that doesnt even have one o ring seal in it for moisture protection.

As I said before, what are you going to say now?

"Why buy a Leupold scope when there are better one�s at the same price?
I don�t understand why they are so popular."

I didn't see it as a blanket statement that Leupolds are on the same plane as the more expensive European offerings. However, I do think you have to look awfully hard to find many scopes that are significantly better at the same price.

Change of subject but, I think the Mark V is now made in Atascadero, Ca. USA. At least that is what is stamped on the side of my latest three Mark V's.

Buell,

Your US prices are wrong, research some more, but nice try.

One area in optics I won't disagree with you is binos. The big three(Leica,Zeiss & Swarovski) offer far better binos than Leupold or the others. I own Swarovskis SLCs and may buy another pair of ELs. Lets face it a hunter only needs a couple pairs of binos, on scopes it comes down to one for each rifle. If the Euro scopes come down to Leupold prices I might consider but until then I will stick with Leupolds. Happy hunting! sure-shot

[This message has been edited by sure-shot (edited 02-18-2002).]

What does it matter, Leupolds deliver for less $$.

Leupold simply does that,without breaking stride................

They are so d**n good they dont need any lifetime warranty to attract customers.
Leupold on the other hand, does not have anything but the warranty and eye reliefe.
If you dont got the money to buy a decent scope, fine buy your Leupold and get use for the warranty...[/

Apparently Monz ,You have more money than COMMON SENSE!

[This message has been edited by tsturm (edited 02-18-2002).]

The top of the line weatherbys are made in the US but not all of their guns are.

Sureshot-

I am looking right in a Cabelas cat for the prices. If you want to exact prices here you go...

Swaro A-line 3x10- 739.99
Zeiss Conq 3.5x10 499.99
Leu Vari x 3 3.5x10x50 519.99
Khales 3.5x10x50 589.99

This is from Cabelas...

Cabelas doesnt even sell a Vari x 3 for under 400...

What scope for 400 can you buy that offers more then the Conquest? The optiks are the same as their top of the line scopes. They are just made in the US, and the tube body is different, but the lenses are the same...

What about the older models? What are you going to compare a 20 year old scope with a new leupold? We are comparing new scopes on both sides.

I dont think the point of choosing a scope, atleast for me, is what kind of value I can get for my dollar. Hell I have shot the best group of my life with a rifle that had a Cabelas pine ridge scope on it.

It is more valuable for me to have a rifle with optiks I am totally confident in. Ever heard about buying the best scope you can afford? If that means scraping together an extra 2-3 hundred for a top quality scope I see no reason not to.

You can buy a docter optiks scope which is made by the carl zeiss company for 299... a 3x9x40 that has optiks years ahead of Leupold's lenses...

What is your point about the conquest being made for american hunters? Isnt that the point of the LPS scope, for another market?

Big stick-

I too could care less where something is made. Its the quality that counts...

Leupolds will handle just about any situation a hunter could ever face. Its just how well they do it... They are good for most people, just not me...

If people want to continue to think Leupolds are the end all be all scopes they are made out to be then fine. I have disproved just about everything Sureshot has said, and I am made out to be the villan. If people want to argue their points they first need to get their facts strait. I have every right to get upset when things like this happens.

If anyone can prove me wrong I am more then willing to admit it, but all sureshot can come up with are lame myths and overly generalized statements, not facts...

[This message has been edited by Ray, Alaska (edited 02-18-2002).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by monz:
Why buy a Leupold scope when there are better one�s at the same price?
I don�t understand why they are so popular.

---

Leupold has a reputation for having quality products. They did not get this reputation overnight. People recommend Leupold products to others because of the satisfaction with their products and the outstanding customer service.

Example;

I bought a Weatherby Accumark and Leupold VAR 3 Target Scope in used(as new) condition. I could never get the gun to shoot consistant. I later put the scope on my Savage. I immediately realized the scope was at fault. I sent it to Leupold for them to inspect. Seven days later they are sending the repaired scope back to me. It will be here 2-20-02. Thanks Leupold.

------------------
Andrew V. McGee

[This message has been edited by avmcgee (edited 02-18-2002).]

As far as the reputation that one said was not earned overnight: Leupold is perhaps the best for the money in the US market, but they will never surpass German or Austrian quality. They are not even the best of the US brands; Unertl kills leupold.

When it comes down to it, it's Americans having pride in their American gear; it's sentiment or nostalgia--surely not practicality. It's either that or you like the way they look.

This debate has come down to leupold- supporters admitting they have no good reason for buying leupold: they just "only buy leupold." Where is the logic in this ideology, someone tell me? Or else, admit you have some idiosyncrasy that impairs your ability to see the facts. Or admit you know Leupold is NOT the best...but you ignore this and buy them anyway.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Buell:
Raa-

This discussion was to ask why people buy Leupolds instead of other scopes. Swarovski is another scope. Most of this discussion so far has been comparing them.

I will ridicule anyone who uses "facts" that simply arn't true. Most Americans dont know enough about the Euro scopes to make a valid argument against them. That is the simple truth. Would you ridicule a anti-gun person going around saying false statements about guns? I think so...

I admit that Leupolds are good scopes for what they are, but that is not to say that they are the best, nor would I ever buy one.

TSTRUM-

I have no doubts that if you had a European scope and it broke they would fix it for free. Some things just dont need to be said for people to buy their scopes. They have other selling points besides a warranty.

Sure-shot:

You are blabbing again.

European scopes are not heavier as a rule...

Here ARE the facts, not your myths.

Swarovski 3x10 A-line series riflescope.
Weighs 12.5 ounces. Comes with a lifetime warranty. Cost: just over 700US

Zeiss conquest 3.5x10. Weighs 14 ounces.
Lifetime warranty. 500US

Leupold Vari x3 3.5x10. Weighs 13 ounces
lifetime warranty. 475US

Leupolds, as I just pointed out, are in some cases heavier then a European scope, and in Zeiss' cases it is lighter, but only by 1 ounce.

However, once people get into the 30MM scopes, ofcourse they are going to be heavier, goin up to about 22ounces, but the Leupold LPS which is 30MM is around 20 ounces... and isnt made of steel...

I know Schmidt and Bender, Zeiss and Swarovski scopes are waterproof with out the turrent caps. The older scopes were pretty bad when it came to this, but that is in the past. Hell I have a Weaver K3 that doesnt even have one o ring seal in it for moisture protection.

As I said before, what are you going to say now?

---

Buell,

There you go again with your fly open. Your post above states:

Leupold Var X3 3.5x10 Weighs 13oz Lifetime warranty.$475US

I have this scope priced at $382.58 from Lock, Stock & Barrel SS's current catalog. Your quoted price above is for the 40mm objective, remember it weighs 13oz.You have your price quotes wrong again.

The second price you quote from Cabelas is for the Leupold VariX3 3.5X10 50mm objective at $519.99. What happen to the 40mm model prices? Why are you juggling the figures to make Leupold appear priced higher. I have the Leupold 3.5x10 50mm model priced at $447.44 from Lock, Stock & Barrel SS. Anyone can juggle prices from different sources to make a certain brand appear higher priced. Nice try again, but you are losing ground. Oh, by the way, Cabelas is one of the last places I would shop for a riflescope, you gotta do better than that. Now, what are you going to post to discredit Leupold now? sure-shot

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jagermiester:
Well, it seems every argument in support of Leupold has been refuted, no?

As far as the reputation that one said was not earned overnight: Leupold is perhaps the best for the money in the US market, but they will never surpass German or Austrian quality. They are not even the best of the US brands; Unertl kills leupold.

When it comes down to it, it's Americans having pride in their American gear; it's sentiment or nostalgia--surely not practicality. It's either that or you like the way they look.

This debate has come down to leupold- supporters admitting they have no good reason for buying leupold: they just "only buy leupold." Where is the logic in this ideology, someone tell me? Or else, admit you have some idiosyncrasy that impairs your ability to see the facts. Or admit you know Leupold is NOT the best...but you ignore this and buy them anyway.

---

Jager,

Tell your story to the following people:

1 Jim Shockey, world renowned bear guide from Canada.

2 Doug Koenig, considered the World's Best All-Around Shooter(competitive)

3 Jerry Fisher, Master Gunmaker, American Gunmaker's Guild

4 Tony Boyer, Holder of 12 World Benchrest Shooting Records

5 David Tubb, 7 time Nat'l Hi-Power Rifle Silhouette Champion

All of these persons endorse Leupolds riflescopes.And the list goes on and on. This is the most anal thread I've ever seen posted-trying to discredit a great American Optics Company no doubt by a bunch of ill-informed nitwits! sure-shot

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jagermiester:

As far as the reputation that one said was not earned overnight: Leupold is perhaps the best for the money in the US market, but they will never surpass German or Austrian quality. They are not even the best of the US brands; Unertl kills leupold.

This debate has come down to leupold- supporters admitting they have no good reason for buying leupold: they just "only buy leupold." Where is the logic in this ideology, someone tell me? Or else, admit you have some idiosyncrasy that impairs your ability to see the facts. Or admit you know Leupold is NOT the best...but you ignore this and buy them anyway.

---

I was certain by quoting from the original question that no one would misunderstand me. I only intended to answer the post as it was asked , not according to the arguements between this one or that one.

I did not put any scope above another. I stated a reason why people buy Leuopld. Because of word of mouth.
Buy what you want to and be thankful you have different choices to choose from.

By the way, I bought a Savage this past summer. And no, I did not buy it because I thought it was the "best rifle". But it does get the job done to my satisfaction even if it is not the "best".
In order to have the "best" one will have to pay more!

------------------
Andrew V. McGee

[This message has been edited by avmcgee (edited 02-18-2002).]

I can come up with several sources to buy German scopes for less then what people have here. If I wanted to I could get a Schmidt and Bender for 500 + shipping to the US...

My point was to say that for a good european scope is not as expensive as most poeople make them out to be.

It is the same as in Europe. As monz said over there Leupolds are on par with prices to the German scopes.

You can buy a Mercedes or BMW for much cheaper over in Europe. It is only becuase things have to be imported and tariffed does that make them more over here.

We can get into a contest over who can find the cheapest deals but that is not the point of this debate. I used Cabelas as a refrence. You may not buy your scopes from them, but how many people do? A 50MM objective swarovski is still only 220 dollars more then the leupold. Whoopie only $20 more then the 42MM size... The khales has better optiks then the leupold and is less then 100 dollars more...

The 475 was for the 40MM size. When I posted the number the second time I did not remember what I posted before and looked again, but I read the number off the 50MM size and didnt realize my mistake.

BTW, were those 5 or so guys the same ones posing in the Leupold advertisement? I'm sure they went out of their way soley to express their pleasure with the product and were in no way payed...

Also, is it not interesting that most of these people are competition shooters, and not hunters?(save for Shockey)These shooters don't need a ultra quality and durability of a fine Deutsch optik that a hunter needs. Also again, the German scope makers aren't in the habit of catering to benchrest or other competive shooting diciplines, as Leupold is. Obviously, these shooters don't have the option to buy a German scope...if they did, anyone knowlegable on the matter would bet they'd go for the German one...unless they were as ignorant as some of you.

When the marines went looking for a scope to replace their old Unertl scopes from the Vietnam war era, they tested several makers scopes to see which one they would choose. They did a battery of tests. One part of the test was to use the scopes as tools to pound in tent stakes into the ground. The Unertl was the only one to remain intact without any damage. One of the scopes that failed was a Leupold tactical scope. In the end they chose the newly designed Unertl made just for the Marines. These scopes are hand made in John Unertls basement. They even use 24Karat gold for the dots on the "mil-dot" reticle. Where did John learn to make scopes? Europe.... its this kind of quality that seperates the top scopes from the rest of the pack, and Leupold is one of the ones that got left behind.

In the USMC scout sniper training program they show off their scopes to incoming students by pounding a tent stake in with the scopes... No joke...and they dont do it lightly either. these are full fledged blows...

Just thought you might like that...

It was merely a device used to show what quality scopes are capable of doing. Obviously you took it the wrong way.

Leupold has more Shooting Titles and Awards to it's credit,in more disciplines,than all other makes added together. None of that fluke. I doubt that all of those Gents,that won those Titles,are on Leupold's payroll.

They clearly work and well.

Leupold has a long track record,of rugged duty service,much of that Hunting. In the event that shit happens,they will without question,simply fix it. No questions asked,no paperwork and in quick fashion.
Some would argue that is meaningless"fluff". I wish everything I bought,had the same warranty. I'd imagine most would enjoy such a prospect also.

I've never failed one. I've never passed a single shot,at a single head of Game,because a Leupold wasn't "good enough". Simply put,I've never been found wanting for something better.

I find Game with Zeiss binoculars and kill it with a Leupold. That works very well,for me.

So while I couldn't argue the term "best",I could certainly argue success. That is the crux,of why I favor Leupold rifle scopes...............

You could drive a car that got you to work in one peice, could be a Yugo for all I care, but that is not to say it does it the best, nor would you settle for driving a yugo to work. Why settle for anything but the best? I am a perfectionist at the things I am passionate about, and hunting is one of them. Therefore I require the guns that I will hunt with to be the best that I can get them to be, same for the scopes..

I dont care about a warranty, what really counts is the moment of truth when you break your scope and send it back in.

You use a german pair of binocs to find your game, why not a german scope to shoot your game? Why do you use a german binoc but not a riflescope? Is that becuase you think you will have a more successful hunt? You can shoot an animal in darker conditions with a german scope then a Leupold. Maybe you havnt been in the situation you decribed, but how many people have?

We cannot discuss shooting awards simply becuase german scope makers dont make benchrest or competition guns. They focus their efforts on hunting guns.

I mean if we are going to get into that, why is it that the best competition guns used in the olympics come from europe?

There isnt a doubt that german engineering is far ahead of american engineering. Why use an inferior product, when the better product does not cost THAT much more?

[This message has been edited by Buell (edited 02-18-2002).]

The majority of Alaska hunters use Leupold scopes, and those who have hunted here understand how tough on the scope and rifle hunting conditions are.

We (Americans, Europeans, and others) can trade insults all day, but how is that going to make American hunters change their minds about their trusty Leupold scopes?

These are some of my reasons for using Leupold scopes:

1. I avoid any scope with a front "bell" greater than 36mm, and a tube larger than one inch. I don't need a 30mm tube, nor I need a larger lens in front. Yes, Zeizz's Conquest have 1" tubes, but I still don't need one of these since my Leupold will probably outlast me. The fact is that I will probably hand them to my sons when I can't hunt anymore (by the age of 102, I hope).

2. Leupold scopes gather enough light for my type of hunting conditions. Even by mid September we still have daylight by 9:45 or 10:00 PM. I don't need greater light gathering capabilities.

3. Some of the European scopes have a "limited" lifetime warranty. If my Leupold scope fails, I could go to the local gun store and buy another (they can be found in any store here), or send it to Leupold for repairs and have it back within one week. The lifetime warranty is with the product; it means that I don't need to show proof of purchase. If I sell the scope to somebody the lifetime warranty goes with the product (paperwork is not needed).

4. I have never had a Leupold scope fail, and if you ask long enough (in Alaska) you will notice that a great number of heavy recoil rifles have Leupold scopes on top.

Some of you may not think that the warranty is not a big deal, but it is to a great number of American hunters and shooters. Besides, it is much easier to deal with an American company that is not too far away from us, right on our soil.

That because they suit my needs best. I use my binoculars in a manner entirely seperate,of the function my scopes serve. I may sit for hours,looking continuously through binoculars. I've never had a notion of doing the same,with a rifle scope. My bino's have many times the number of hours of use in them,than likely all my scopes combined.

I don't need a Rolls Royce,to drive to my favorite fishing hole. It may be deemed better or even best,but I'd not exact those attributes from it. It would be a foolish way to spend money.

I don't wear a suit to work,built by some French designer,because someone may think that is better than Carhartt riggin' pants and a hickory shirt.

Did you special order a windshield from Leica or Swaro,to install in your vehicle? Certainly it is "better" than what the Factory poked in there. Isn't it seriously lacking? Aren't you afraid there is some pincushion distortion or abberation?

My point is,one can chase rainbows endlessly. But when you weigh reality,you don't need a Rolls Royce fishing buggy. Nor does the 4x4 need a Schmidt and Bender windshield,to make it capable.

I take rifles more serious than most and have built a pile of them,for different wants and needs. Most are built with extreme accuracy in mind. For extracting the most out of them,I've yet in a single instance,found a Leupold scope to hinder their performance capabilities.

The most dominate rifles on the Planet,on continous basis,wear Loopie glass. That is no fluke. Simply put,they've nothing to prove,when housed on those rifles. All is measured in accordance to them,as they are so well rounded in their dominance,that they are simply the yardstick of comparison.

So I really doubt I am a perfectionist,as I know perfection doesn't exist. So I'd term myself as being a realist. I weigh what is available to me and proceed in accordance,employing components I deem suitable for trial.

For those reasons,I have nothing but great faith in Leupold. I don't get all worked up,over big tubes,huge objectives and some of the other associated rifle scope hype. I don't Hunt at night,so don't bolt on a 6lb contraption that would give me the capability. If I can't kill it with a 6x42mm Leupold,it is way after legal shooting hours.

A warranty,says much about a Manufacturer. I'd not purchase a product,that left me zero recourse. I like a guy with balls,like Mike Dillon. He says if you can break my shit,I'll fix it for free. I haven't broke my 550-B either. Leupold is without peer,in the Optics Industry. I like that reasoning and can relate.

So wherever one might care to rate Leupold,is OK with me. I'll be there,knockin critters to the ground and shooting bugholes. Smiling all the while............

I said I am a perfectionist at the things I am passionate about. I dont care about cars... In hunting I will buy the best things that I can, even if a inferior product will do the job. I am not saying people should buy euro scopes because they are the best. Buy whatever best serves you to your liking, and I will do the same.

BTW your comparisons are a little out of touch with reality. If your french suit is best suited for the job, then use it, but I doubt your job would make a french suit practical, nor would it be for mine.

I too hate big scopes, nor large amounts of magnification. A S&B fixed 6 power is all I ever need. Simple, reliable, and great optiks...

Could you tell if this is true in your country,

that "warranty" on german or austrian product are illegal when purchase in Germany or Austria?

that "warranty" can be used when sold in other countrie's only?

I was told this by a german hunter that I came across and he explained to me that Adolf Hitler started this law to make product more superior or worthy and that why products from Germany or Austria have good reputations and that they are well made otherwise they would not produced it in the first place.