Hello, I am planning on a pair of bolt action rifles for big game hunting. And would like any Ideas or input on the subject of hunting rifles. The requirement of the smaller bore is that it be relatively light and portable, and be adequate for 200 yard shots at moose. It must be at least 7mm and will not be a magnum. The Larger bore will be of medium weight, and will be capable of 200 yard shots at brown bear, while at the same time, not splitting a deer in two. The two rifes will Have similar scopes (small), and be on similar actions (long actions) Magnum length bolts hit me in the nose.
I am a handloader, and do not object to a wildcat if brass and bullets are available at reasonable cost. I do however have an appreciation for factory cartriges (especially since my 17 jet arrived). I am thinking Winchester 70 Stainless classics, syn. stock, iron sights, black finish, 30-06 and a .375 Taylor (.375-.338 Mag.). The 30 cal with 180 grain, the .375 with 300 grain. Loaded so that the trajectory of both rifles are a close match.
Any Ideas to add for the stocks or anything else?
thanks

Easy:

#1 s/be a 30-06, case closed.
#2 c/be 338 wmag, 338-06 or 35 whelan. no need for a 375. (Buy one if you want but the other three would be fine).

Pick whatever rifle brand you like. Fixed 2.5X, 4X or 2X7 variable on both. Only real caveat is that the factory synthetic stocks are injection molded plastic crap. Nothing synthetic or composite about them. Look at the factory laminated stocks, they are far stronger and stiffer than the "tupperware" they ARE a bit heavier, but you did not mention weight as an issue so no problem.

There are a lot of super/ultra/whammy-boomers to think about, but for the criteria that you spelled out, you don't need 'em.

JimF

i guess I really do not need a .375 If I have a good .35, but then that raises another question. If I have a .35 Whelen, do I really need a 30-06?
The 35 Shoots flat enough, and would be cheap enough to shoot alot, I have considered this option, and the one gun hunter makes alot of sense. But that makes room for two more rifles, a 416 and a much lighter caliber rifle. even though I really dont need them. I sure do make this confusing for myself.

Sounds to me like you have a perfect set planned allready.

Sounds to me like you have a perfect set planned allready. If you wanted to go metric 8x57 and 9.3x62 or 64 could be an idea. 200gr from the 8mm and 286gr from the 9.3 no better just the nearest metric equivalents.

my two cents worth:
#1: 6,5x55 or 7x57
#2: 9,3x62

The 6,5x55 can shoot up to 160 gr and is mostly accurate and low recoil ( no bloody nose ) . The long bullets have a high SD and penetrate well .

The 9,3 is all most people will ever need in a Big Bore .

Now if you really need a compact package - go for a Sauer 202 .
One rifle with two barrels . Being a takedown rifle it fits into a compact case .
These rifle are of high quality and mostly pricy.
I have seen how a friend swithed barrels from 9,3x62 to 6,5x55 and point of impact was exactly two inches higher at 100 yards with still sub-MOA groups .

Ben

I just finished reading Craig Boddington's book "American Hunting Rifles". GREAT book and I would recommend it to anyone who loves to hunt or shoot. In it he surveyed over 100 professional guides on various types of North American game on all types of terrain. The majority of the guides recommended whatever caliber you could accurately and comfortably shoot. One fella even said he would rather have a client bring a 243 Winchester moose hunting than a 338 Win Mag he couldn't control.

In the book the Alaskan guides choice for brownies is the 375 H&H. The trajectory of the bullets are very close to the 338 Win Mag out to 300 yards, but a whole lot more knockdown power. From what I have been told the 375 also has less felt recoil than the 338 with the 375 feeling like a big shove vs. the 338 sharp recoil.

Concerning the moose, they can be hit by as big bullet that you can throw at them and chances are they won't fall imediately. The 30-06 has just a little bit more power than the 308, but not much at all. If you are looking for a lightweight rifle I would go with the 308. You can't get one in a Winchester Classic Stainless, but Ruger makes one if you are looking for a weather proofed rifle. I'm looking at a Sako M75 Synthetic Stainless myself. It cost about $200 more than the Winchester, but it fits me great and I would spend more than the $200 on a stock that fits me right not to mention a good trigger. The Sako comes with an adjustable trigger from 2-4lbs. They also have the Finnlight with a fluted barrel. Worth a look.

[ 10-01-2002, 15:56: Message edited by: jcsabolt-2 ]

I would definitely opt for the 30/06 and the .375 H&H. Nothing you couldn't do with these pair. They have everything going for them I reckon.

The other combo I would consider would be the 30/06 teemed with a .416 rem mag. You could load 340 gr woodleigh's in the .416 for a flat shooting hard hitting big bore out to 200 yards and if you needed more could step up to the 410 woodeligh's.

PC.

Get a pair of near-identical rifles in .30-06 and a .338 Win. Mag., and scope them the same with something like Leupold 2.5-8Xs. You'll be all set!

AD

It is amazing to see all the different suggestions here none wrong, none right all have disadvantages/advantages.

I'm just going through the same questions and have decided on a custom 7 x 57 for the light rifle on a Mauser VZ 24 action(trued, lapped and contoured), B&C stock in tan with black splatter finish, 24" light (no. 1 contour) sporter barrel, Timney trigger, 2-7 scope. Lot's of problems deciding on the medium rifle, since these are standard length actions I think I can fit a 416 Taylor, 458 Winch. or 425 Westly Richards but these seem very heavy for my needs. I'm also currently considering the 9.3x62 or 35 Whelen. This rifle will use the same action and stock with a no. 4 contour barrel.

Right now www.ktpguns.com has a good deal on a Sig Sauer R84 with a .375 H&H barrel and a .300 Weatherby barrel. The Weatherby might be a little more than the light caliber you wanted but I thought I'd give you the heads-up on it anyways.

Patrick

I just went through this with a friend we stettled on ruger all weather's in 30-06 and 338 win mag. With the idea of a 416 in the works. Should cover it all.

Light and portable and at least 7 mm and you reload = 284 Win = Ultra Light Arms most popular caliber.

For Killing Bears = 338 WM

.243 for the little stuff
30.06 for the general rifle
both in SteyrMannlicher-ProHunter with 3x9x40Zeiss.
If you go for something where you need the 300grn solid- borrow the guides .375H&H

Here's a few things to think about.

#1 Some case could be made for 375, 416, 458 for brownies. But those cartridges are way overkill for anything else.

#2 How often do get get to hunt brownies? (once every 4 years?)

#3 Are you considering going brown bear hunting without a guide? It's probably legal, but how smart is that?

#4 How experienced a shooter are you? Despite what some claim at their keyboards, or brag about about in the lodge, recoil is a serious concern in the real world. A miss with a 416 is much less effective than a hit with a 30-06.

#5 Despite the claims of the 300 magnum contingent, the bullets on the market today perform best and (penetrate best) at moderate velocities (2200-2800). Also, within reason, bigger slower bullets are more effective on big animals than small fast bullets.

#6 Don't equate the Whelan to the '06 on the basis of the case. The big 358 bullet is more effective on big stuff that the small bullet. The whelan is more in the category of the 338 even though it lacks the formal title that lots of folks get excited about (magnum)

So.....here is a recoil menu. All calibers were calculated in 9 lb rifles. (416 in a 10#) The numbers will show the bullet weight/velocity = ft lbs recoil/recoil velocity. One thing that you will pick up on right away is the fallacy that big bores give a "slow push" this time honored belief is absolutely false (if rifle weights are equal). (Probably fostered by the fact that bigger bores used to be in far heavier rifles)

So here's the menu, pick your poison:

30-06 180/2750 = 20/12
35 Wh 250/2450 = 27/14
338mg 250/2700 = 36/16
375 270/2700 = 43/18
416 400/2450 = 53/18

JimF

[ 10-01-2002, 20:40: Message edited by: JimF ]

I would suggest a single rifle in .338 Win. One gun that will do all that you are looking for. One set of reloading dies, cases and bullets instead of multiple calibers. This all equates to more practice with your rifle. Good factory ammo is abundant. Add a good scope to cover the terrain that you may hunt (1.5-6, 2.5-8 or 2.5-10)and you are set. An 8.25 to 8.75 lb field ready rifle is not too heavy and not too light.
You could always get a small (.22 or .24) caliber rifle for varmints if you desire.

280Ackley and 416RemMag,both with 23" tubes,both wearing Leupie 2.5-8X's.

Mine would wear McMillan stocks................

I would like a bigger bullet than .30 for moose, and would choose (in a standard length action) a .35 Whelan or 9.3X62. This one could do both jobs, but the bear gun could also be any magnum at or above .35 yet below .45 and work well.

Now if you will get smart and go with short actions .350 RM and .416 Express in near matching Winchester Classics.

Fireplug

Ok, since I get to spend your money, here goes:
Since you are a handloader, a M70 FWT. in .280 w/ Leup. 3-9comp. for the light rifle. A std. M70 in .338Win. mag. w/ Leup. 2.5-8 VXIII. I'm not a fan of synthetic stocks, they have their use, but I would go laminated wood because it's your money & I prefer wood. Since the .338WM may be used against DG, I would opt for backup express sights. Have fun making your decisions.

[ 10-01-2002, 23:11: Message edited by: fredj338 ]

As was stated by fredj338, since I get to spend YOUR money on this, here's my choice.

Blaser R93
1st barrel would be in a .270 or .280 or .30-06

2nd barrel would be in either the .338 WM or the .375H&H mag.

With this rifle you have ONE trigger to learn. You just swap out the barrels and the bolt face. Only need an allen wrench (supplied w/ the rifle). Add in the base and rings for each barrel and you're out the door for around $2400 + optics.
Not too bad for a good production rifle that rivals a lot of the custom jobs out there. IMHO, that is.

A 280 Rem and 338 Win Mag would be my vote. That 416 Remington sounded like a good idea until I saw the recoil stats. OUCH.....You'd have to send out a search party to find my shoulder!!!

[ 10-02-2002, 13:26: Message edited by: Nebraska ]

Nebraska in all seriousness do not discount the .416 cals, with a good fitting stock & pad and shooting say the 340 gr woodleigh protected points at say 2300-2400 fps it will be fine, I would rather shoot that than an ill fitting 30/06 ie. my boat paddle stocked ruger MK11 in 30/06.

Just to add the .416 has power but it does not mean it has to be run at top gear, run it in second or third still get immense power and know that if you want to slip it into overdrive with some 400 grainers the potential to do so is there.

280 Rem, preferably 7mm Rem Mag.

338 Win or 358 Norma or 375 H&H.

I agree whit Rossi.. 7mm rem.mag. and 358 Norma mag or 9.3x62

How about a .270 WSM and a .376 Steyr ???? That should do anything that anybody wants to do !!! You can load the .270 WSM down for small stuff and up for deer and larger. The .376 Steyr would be excellent for elk, moose, bears, nilgai, buffalo, you get my point.

bowhuntr

Well, since it appears that jsirm is an Alaska resident, he can hunt brownies every year, provided he travels a bit from Juneau. Also, when you're deer hunting in coastal Alaska before the bears go to sleep, it pays to carry a bear rifle. BTW, all non-residents have to have a guide for brown bear, or be with a relative who is an Alaska resident.

SE Alaska is also wetter than most spots on the planet (it's a temperate rainforest, fer cryin' out loud, lotsa places over 150 inches of rain/year) and requires lots of travel in boats over salt water to go hunting. Stainless/synthetic is the way to go here. Get a Rimrock stock, they're superb, especially for model 70. Although I am interested to find out how well the laminated woods stocks do in really wet conditions...

.30-'06 and .375 H&H are an ideal combo for this type of hunting, it has to be, 'cause it's what I use. Further, you can pretty much match trajectories with the two rounds, and with heavy bullets neither is a meat tenderizer. The .280 or 7x57 would do the job fine (as would the .270, but you said 7mm+) and the .375 Taylor would likely fill the H&H spot no problem, since jsirm said he doesn't want a mag length action.

Sounds like you already had the problem solved, jsirm.

I think everyone wants you to buy a new rifle and if you want to do that too go ahead. For my nickles worth, I'd use the 35 Whelen for just about everything and as you say it's good to 200 and I bet even a little farther. I am currently enamoured with the idea of a 416 Rem. Mag and that is certainly good bear medicine as well as Africa Capable. I am not sure what you can't take in NA with the Whelen, but I'd use it and the 416. As for the 7mm it will cover everything else well so I think you're set.

I would buy a good quality .338WM, and the best low-power Leupold scope I could afford. That's all you will need for any game in the US.

In fact, if you had lots of money and didn't want to spend too much on several rifles, I would buy one of D'Arcy Echols .338WM, and use this rifle for all my big game hunting. That's exactly what I have been doing in Alaska for the past 9 years, except that my rifle is a Ruger.

If I wanted a bigger than .338WM rifle, I would skip the .375 H&H and buy a .416. But then, a rifle battery as follows would be nice, too:

.22LR (Ruger 10/22 with a target barrel)
.270 (or .30-06)
.338WM (for most of my serious hunting)
.416 (for specialized hunts only)