7-08 vs 30-06, does Big Stick have a case?

14 February 2002, 07:19

I think he does to a certian extent. On one hand comparing the two with light bullets has shown to make the 7-08 shine, lets examine this in another light.

the 7-08 with only 44 grains of IMR 4350, 175 grn speer grand slam, 2542 fs, bc .465. This is assuming that the 7-08 has a 24" bbl. At 300 yds this combo will produce 8.54 ftlbs per grain and drop 17 inches.

the 30-06 with 56 grains of 4350, 180 grn gs makes 2639 fs bc 416. At 300 yds this will make 8.76 ftlbs per grain and drop 16.6 inches.

I think thats a good comparison and not a bad showing for the 7-08 using considerably less powder, however with a lesser barrel it changes quite a bit. That is a 7-08 load that should suffice for most any north american game with the possible exception of dangerous bruins. In this light I think the two can be compared.

The bottom line is the better sd and efficency of the 7-08 does not make it superior to the 06 with a higher powder capacity, but none the less comparable to a point. This is also pretty much the top end of the energy spectrum for the 7-08 but hasnt even scratched the surface with an 06. In that light they are not a good comparison. I damn near bought a 7-08 instead of my 06 when I got it and giving this a good hard look has made me glad that I didnt. I can also make my 06 AI and benefit from that moreso than a 7-08 would because its already about as efficent as it will get.

14 February 2002, 07:45

Paul H

The point Stick is making, and I wholeheartedly concur with it is, the species the 7-08 is big enough for, the -06 is as well, and those critters the 7-08 falls short on, the -06 does as well.

I know lots of folks see the -06 as the be all end all, but IMHO, it really begins to fall short on animals in the 1000# class, and all dangerous game. That is why there are medium and big bores. 30 cal and under is small bore, don't matter how heavy or fast the bullets go, so pick anything in the .264" - .308" class that tickles your fancy. Don't be deluded into thinking an animal you would consider the 7-08 woefully inadequate for to be taken with ease and w/o concern w/ the -06.

14 February 2002, 08:06

<Gunner>

I'm a relative neophite when it comes to big game hunting, but I've taken quite a few large deer with 7mm-08 and 30-06 - and have never seen a difference in performance with the right shot placement. That is comparing a 20" barrel 7-08 carbine to a couple of different 30-06 rifles with 22-24" barrels. I know the numbers show a big difference, but I'm not sure how important a difference on game. Of course, I haven't taken a single shot at an elk or larger with 7-08, so I can't comment when you get to larger bodied animals...

Regards,

Kevin

14 February 2002, 08:35

Nickudu

Things never change. Back in '62 they argued themselves blue as to which was the more effective Brown Bear cartridge, the 7 mag or the '06. The supporters of the '06 prevailed at the time and for good reason. They were astute enough NOT to ignore bullet diameter, bullet weight or optimum hunting ranges for the game in question. Now we have this wonderful little 7mm cartridge, which offers 3 to 400 fps less velocity than the 7 Mag, being extolled as an across-the-board equal of the .30-06 ... and this, with 140 grain bullets, no less. There were then and always will be more .30-06 rifles in moose and brown bear camps than either the 7mm-08, its' ballistic predecessor, the 7mm Mauser or any of the 7mm Magnums.
Yes, there is a great overlap in general killing power between the two cartridges in question BUT, if you think the cartridge of greater bore size, bullet weight and powder capacity won't break down the heavier game species in more reliable fashion, you are mistaken.

[This message has been edited by Nickudu (edited 02-13-2002).]

14 February 2002, 09:39

John S

Nick-
I think what Paul is saying is that for the average deer/sheep/antelope/caribou hunter a 7-08 or 30/06 or 270 or 280, etc etc will all do much the same thing. There are certainly some recoil and trajectory differences but all will kill game of this size range very handily.
When you step up to moose/elk size animals or add in dangerous game like brown/grizzly bear then they all come up short. Yes, the 308 and 30/06 can throw a much heavier and larger bullet but that alone won't take them to the next level of performance. Their velocities start getting slow, they will lack range and extra punch needed to penetrate and immobilize. This is why the 338 and 375 bores have become so popular with hunters of this type game.
I remember a visit I paid to a gentleman in our sportsman's club may years ago. He was the only person in this area that had done a lot of big game hunting. At this point he was up in years and about done with the game. He was a 30/06 man to the core, used it to take everything. Until he went on his first brown bear hunt and killed two bears with a total of 15 shots! Upon his return home he bought a Browning Safari in 375 and used that on his next trip.
This rifle accompanied him on many hunts thereafter, seeing use on several African safaris as well as Alaskan trips. He had an incredible trophy collection, and the number of game killed with his 30/06s would seem unbelievable today. He was absolutely dead set against it's use for large/dangerous game after trying the 375! Too many multiple shot kills made him almost angry when comparing how his 375 performed on later hunts for similar species.
Needless to say, I took in all of what he said. I was just starting out in my own hunting and here was a man who had already done it! Eventually I came to prefer other cartridges than he did, but I never could disagree with his thoughts about the above!

14 February 2002, 09:54

<Big Stick>

Wstrnhuntr,

If you are poking 175gr projectiles in a 7-08,that is your fault. It has a SD of .310. It takes a .308" diameter projectile of 210grs or so,to meet that.

The 150gr .284" projectile is a more apt vehicle for comparison,as their SD's are much more alike. The 150gr XBT has a BC of .529,which is much higher than the particular 175 you mention. Of course it can be propelled at a higher initial velocity and due to it's design(BC)it will retain a higher percentage of that initial momentum.

As with any cartridge,the key to happiness,is to meld it's capacity to a projectile that allows it to breathe. For me,the 120/140X is without competition in the 7-08,for on Game performance.

If you buy a long action in 30-06 and think punching it out to 30-06AI is going to make it a new animal,you are wrong.

The 7-08Ackley is a dandy and the 284Win is superb too. So there certainly is room for improvement. The new Remington SAUM in 7mm,comes with a 22" barrel(mistake in my opinion),it will trounce the 7-08 nicely.

So there is room for a performance increase,within the short action confines............

14 February 2002, 11:06

Nickudu

All you '06 haters have apparently misplaced your objectivity. Big Stick basically shit-canned the '06 in the other thread and now I'm informed that it falls just as short as lesser calibers in regard to brown bear, moose and elk hunting. Well, all I can say is, for the ranges that I associate with moose and bear hunting, I'll take the '06 over Any lesser caliber and any of the .30 caliber magnums too, for that matter. For elk, I'll give in to a .300 Mag., leaving the .338 and up out of the discussion for the sake of clarity.
I don't even use an '06 ... I use a 7mm-08 far more often but I don't allow such to dictate my opinions as to which are best suited to the task at hand.

14 February 2002, 11:14

<Big Stick>

You read it differently,than I offered it.

You will see NUMEROUS times,my contention. It is simply,that there are numerous cartridges that offer 30-06 performance,without having a 30-06 headstamp.

I simply weighed performance characteristics,from both Factory published data and that published in numerous Reloading manuals.

No smoke,no mirrors,no spin on anything. Performance speaks for itself...........

14 February 2002, 11:51

Paul H

quote:
Originally posted by Nickudu:
All you '06 haters have apparently misplaced your objectivity. Big Stick basically shit-canned the '06 in the other thread and now I'm informed that it falls just as short as lesser calibers in regard to brown bear, moose and elk hunting. Well, all I can say is, for the ranges that I associate with moose and bear hunting, I'll take the '06 over Any lesser caliber and any of the .30 caliber magnums too, for that matter. For elk, I'll give in to a .300 Mag., leaving the .338 and up out of the discussion for the sake of clarity.
I don't even use an '06 ... I use a 7mm-08 far more often but I don't allow such to dictate my opinions as to which are best suited to the task at hand.

Nick,

I would choose a 338, 358 or 375 over any of the 30 or under bores for large animals, period! The -06 has been pressed into service for the large and dangerous animals, simply because it was what was commonly available, not because it was the best tool for the job. I'd venture to say that if the 35 whelen had been a common factory round post WW II, you'd never see all the stories about all the animals taken with the 06, as a better choice would have been available.

One advantage of the 6.5 and 7mm's over the 30's is perhaps one is more likely to treat their 6.5 and 7 as small bores and shoot accordingly, vs thinking the -06 is a medium bore.

When everything goes right, and in a perfect world, I'd confindantly take any animal with a 6.5X55. After taking a reality check, it would be the 350 Rigby and 500 Jeffrey.

14 February 2002, 12:20

<john holmes>

Your absolutely correct big stick,there are numerous calibers out there that are the equivelant of the 06 for example the .270 and .280,unfortunately the 7-08 ain't one of them.

14 February 2002, 12:38

<Big Stick>

john holmes,

Just what data would you bring to the table,to negate the 7-08?.............

14 February 2002, 12:58

Nickudu

Hello Paul,
I have absolutely no argument that larger than .30 caliber offerings may be preferable to the '06 and if you read my post I intentionally left them out of the discussion "for the sake of clarity". If my interpretaion of Big Sticks position was wrong then it was wrong. It seemed to me that, for the sake of those out there who may have gotten the impression that the 7mm08 was the equal to the .30-06 for all applications, someone should clarify things.
Adherring to the subject cartridges, I find the 7mm-08 a splendid number and the rifles built around it are a joy to carry. I use the 7mm-08 for much of my deer hunting back east and I wouldn't be if I felt it lacking. Were I compelled to choose between these two cartridges for use on elk, moose and large bear I would use the .30-06 for I know it to be superior for such purposes.

14 February 2002, 13:27

Battle River

Spot on comment NK for general deer hunting this thinking 7-08=30-06 is correct. But for mixed bag hunting like we have here in Alberta I would never give up the 40-50 gr of metal to put me in charge of thre many situations I can and have encountered.Such as:
You are calling elk and a bull comes out on a Seismic line at 250 yds and looks straight at you. 180-190 gr or 140?
A black bear is 50 yds from stand and there is 20min of light left 200gr or 140?
A bull moose is standing behind a tree with shoulders exposed at a front quartering shot180gr or 140gr?
These are not situations out of a reloading manual, these happen to AB hunters regularly. So lets get real and accept each cartridge for their correct application.

[This message has been edited by Battle River (edited 02-14-2002).]

14 February 2002, 13:40

<john holmes>

The data is simple look at what honest velocities(not the made up bullshit you use big stick) the .270,.280 and 30/06 are capable of with a 22inch barrel. You have to use a 24 or 26 inch barreled 7-08 to even come close to these other cartridges.

14 February 2002, 13:41

<Big Stick>

I've killed Black Bears bigger than most folks have dreamt of,as have three of my pards,with the 7-08. Both rifles and in XP-100's. Most with 120X's,a couple with 140X's. Only one of those animals,took two pokes and that was simply insurance.

Killed some nice Bulls too.

None of that out of a book,or a dream. Projectile construction,placement and to a lesser extent(in my opinion)SD,are critical criteria. Superior projectiles,negate superior numbers from a cartridge with a lesser projectile. Few guys shoot X's and the like,out of the '06. I like the comfort only a great bullet offers,that puts me again in the minority.

Have you ever shot a 140X out of a 7-08,at any of the critters mentioned? Or is this more speculation,from prejudiced bias,based upon preconceived notions?...................

14 February 2002, 13:48

<Big Stick>

john holmes,

Please allow me your EXPERT opinion on what velocities I should expect out of a 22" barreled 7-08? The same from your 22" 30-06.

We can then discuss the amazing differences,upon turf you feel comfortable upon and deem exceedingly different,than what has been mentioned thus far.

Before you state something as stupid as I think you are going to,allow me to mention my 14" barreled XP-100 in 7-08 makes 2575fps,with the 140XLC and Re-12...........

14 February 2002, 13:56

<john holmes>

Big stick,that's kind of funny calling the x bullet a superior product. The x bullet has had more problems with accuracy,fowling, and exspansion on game then any of the other well known premiums,such as nosler,trophy bonded and swift. The only solution to the fowling,has been bake on coatings and then charge more money for it. One thing good,is barnes has introduced CR-10,which they didn't have much choice on since nothing else on the market could take that much copper out of a barrel.

14 February 2002, 14:02

Paul H

Nick,

I never said they are equal, they are equivalent Kinda like compairing a 100 and 120 hp motor, fine for a small sedan, but both come up lacking for a truck. I don't care how much you gear down that 120 hp motor, or how you gleefully state that it's more powerful then the 100 hp motor, it is what it is.

14 February 2002, 14:17

<john holmes>

So now big stick has killed bigger bears then most people have dreamed of. Wow what a legend. As for the 30/06 how about the 180gr bullet at an easy 2800 fps. Who knows about the 7-08. I haven't been able to find any published info with a 22inch barrel,they all want to use a 24 or 26 inch barrel,so you can actually get some velociety out of the 7-08.

14 February 2002, 14:54

<Big Stick>

john holmes,

I've never had less than superb "luck" with the X bullets,in my barrels. Granted,most of my rifles wear high end blanks,but I've many Factory rifles that shoot them with zero troubles. That regarding accuracy and fouling.

CR-10 is my favorite,regardless of which barrel I'm cleaning,cartridge it is chambered in,or bullet I favor in it. It simply works the best.

I'm no legend,far from it. I'm just an average schmuck,that has swatted more than one critter,with one cartridge. Reflecting upon things I've seen and done,it is easy to formulate an opinion.

Please reference a single published piece of data,that substantiates your 180gr at 2800fps as being "easy". Of the (22) Factory loads mentioned in my G&A reference,for the 30-06 in 2000,not one makes your "easy" 2800fps,except the HE offerings. Our perhaps you'd care to offer your favored handload,that lends that speed?

I mentioned prior,the difference in a 7-08 with 140's,between a 22" and 24" barrel,is often less than 50fps. The data I offered you,for the 7-08 isn't some "backroom magical handload",but a consensus of ammo makers and reloading publications. It's black and white. You can see it as plainly as I. I'm commenting further,as having applied said combos in the field,upon critters.

It is an efficient cartridge,that does NOT require 26" of barrel to breathe.

It is always futile debate,talking various cartridges with someone who has little firsthand knowledge of them.

You entertain me,please keep it up..............

14 February 2002, 15:41

BBBruce

IMO the 7mm-08 is the late 20th Century version of the 30-30. Its more and better than the 30-30 as should be expected from an update. But its not the '06. Should you chase anything in North America with a 7mm-08 that you would with an 06? Not IMO. Moose? Elk?

14 February 2002, 15:52

<Don Martin29>

There are too many personal assumptions here on the value of the 7-08 vrs the 30-06.

For Big Stick and others to say that the 140 gr .284 bullet is adequate and a larger bullet is overkill is not logical.

There have been threads on forums where deer have been hit high in the ribs and lost. They were found later rotted and the conclusion was that the lungs were missed. This is a case were a larger bullet will make a larger hole. I don't think Big Stick will deny that the 30-06 will start making an larger, longer wound channel and do it earlier as the bullet will waste less energy expanding itself. So for marginal hits the bigger load will be more effective.

Big Stick infers that every shot is placed with surgical precision but thats far from the case. Many hunters use auto loaders with heavy trigger pulls and that coupled with buck fever and bullets touching branches and not hitting point on many of us need all the power on the game that we can get.

A hunting buddy of mine brought up the subject of how athletic one of our hunting gang was years ago. This guy hunted with a .410 shotgun. He could kill stuff that most would have hard time hitting with any gauge. He used to tease us and when it was one of our turns to shoot he would shoot our bird after one of us did on the way down. His rifle by the way was a .257 Roberts.

So we have Karamojo Bell killing elephants with the 7mm and 6.5mm and Big Stick killing the largest bears with a 7-08. I believe it.

But it's not for everyone.

I have killed a lot of woodchucks. I know just what can be done with a .22LR. I gives me the creeps to see one get into it's hole. That's a failure. So I use more than what it takes for game.

I have seen bullets hit game sideways. I have seen game move just as I shot.

In summary I think the 7-08 is fine for the smaller game but it's a flawed load with it's 1-10 twist and inability to shoot longer bullets if you are looking at heavier game and the average hunter/shooter.

14 February 2002, 15:55

Atkinson

I don't necessarily disagree the 7-08, 7x57, 280, 270 and 30-06 are all about on par when it comes to killing power since all one has to do is punch a hole in the sob and let the milk out...

BUT, I get a kick out of some people who make a case for a lesser caliber by using misquoted velocities to make their case, such as in this case, wherein one rather mild load was used to better his argument.

I can easily get 2800 FPS with a 30-06 in my gun with any 180 ge. bullet and better than 2900 with Hornady or Federal Enhanced ammo, not 2600 plus a little as quoted. That 180 at 2800 to 2900 is a sugnificant difference over the 7-08, anyway you cut it. does it make the 06 a better killer, probably not from a practical standpoint, but it will shoot flatter and the bottom line is it's a more powerfull round...

It takes no seventh son to figure a bigger case that holds more powder and shoots faster bullets and normally bigger bullets will out perform a lesser round, and once again I believe the big dog will sleep on the poarch. Just common since.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

14 February 2002, 16:23

<Big Stick>

Don,

In my opinion,there is no such thing as overkill. But there are diminishing returns. I don't think everyone with a 30-06 should abort it,for a 34" barreled 30-378Wby.

I believe projectile selection is the most important facet,AFTER placement. If you can't reliably place the bullet where you want,please stay home and practice,until you can. A "bigger" gun won't make you a "better" Hunter.

I subscribe to a different notion than you. Rather than shoot a heavier conventional bullet,up several rungs of the available weight ladder. I much prefer a midweight,of exceptional quality. A sort of melding of all traits,in one tidy package,without sacrifice.

What would you care to shoot in a 7-08,that a 1-10" wouldn't stabilize?............

Ray,

The HE loads available to the 7-08,perform in like manner. 140's at 3000fps,is a nice combo.

You infer I sought data,to sway things. Please research available sources and find what I posted,as grossly flawed. I posted what is printed an in unbiased fashion. I knew there would be some Head Hunting on this one. I'm not naive.

You dismiss the efficiency of the slighter case,with a slightly lesser diameter projectile. Those things are condusive to velocity and energy. The 7-08 does well,because of it.

The available HE offerings in 308Win utilizing the same 180's,are clipping along at 2750fps.

Do you deem that combo,as somehow lacking,in comparison. When implemented upon the same class of Game?..............

14 February 2002, 16:49

Nickudu

Paul H,

According to your horsepower analogy:

.284 Dia. / 140 gr. Bullet = 100 H.P.

.308 Dia. / 180 gr. Bullet (+30% bullet weight and +10% diameter) = 120 H.P.

.338 Dia. / 225 gr. Bullet (+25% bullet weight and +10% diameter) = 135 H.P.

Do you still think the '06 developes only 20 H.P. more than the 7mm-08?

14 February 2002, 17:05

<Don Martin29>

Big Stick,

Then I will agree that we have our preferances. You go your way and I will go mine.

I have seen game looking at me and brought the scope on the animal and found it was looking over it's back with it's rump facing me. If a hunter had iron sights or not quite as good visibility they might shoot the game with a marginal caliber but hit it in the rump.

This leaves the conclusion that for that first time rifle buyer the 30-06 is the best choice. Leave the .410's and 7-08 for the experts or light game.

For those without judgement there are laws. In this country the laws are easy but go to Scandanavia and find that for moose many marginal calibers are not legal. Now this is the USA so do it your way. I am all for it.

Back in 1967 I shot a buck in the guts at about 50 ft as it bolted away. The load was a .358" 200 gr Silvertip at 2460 fps MV. I said to myself "oh no I shot it in the guts"

Now that shot was made offhand. That was the year that I was the first person to shoot a perfect score on the international target. The 10 ring is about 1.5" at 200 yards!

That shot was the best that I could do. Should I have taken the shot? I don't know. I was confident in the rifle but only at that point from heresay. I figured that for a big job you use a big hammer. So I felt I could shoot at running deer.

By the way the deer fell in about 50 yards and I finished it off right there.

14 February 2002, 18:05

<john holmes>

You're absolutely correct big stick. When you take the lowest published velocity for the 30/06 and compare it to the highest published velocity for the 7-08,you end up with the 7-08 coming close to the performance of the 30/06. You're also correct about the 7-08 not needing a 24 or 26 inch barrel,in fact you have to go out of your way to find one with that length of barrel, by getting it rebarreled or finding one in a varmint configuration. But you do need a 24 or 26 inch barrel,if you hope to get the velocities you're talking about in the 7-08. I really enjoyed the part about these discussions being futile. Yes it is futile talking to a dipshit like you big stick. Its your bullshit story Big stick tell it however you like. As for the 30/06 reaching 2800fps with a 180gr bullet and 22inch tube,Imr 4831 and RL22 will easily get you this speed,but I'm sure you already knew that with your vast experience.

14 February 2002, 18:11

<Big Stick>

Don,

The first thing a man must know,is his limitations. Little in this World is perfect,that is about the only thing that is a certainty.

I disagree on the 30-06 being without peer,for a neophyte. Further,I don't look down my nose at the 7-08,in a comparison to the 30-06. It will deliver enough diameter and energy on target,that should something go askew,the slight edge of the 30-06 would not correct that situation. The War Horse is a Magic Wand to cure poor placement. The 7-08 certainly isn't so suffering in performance,that it's use dictates World Class precision. The two are interchangeable,in my opinion. Mainly because I have used both,the 7-08 more and haven't found it lacking.

There are clearly shots presented at times,that are passed,for a variety of reasons. I've also taken shots without hesitation,that were less than ideal. But I knew the particular cartridge/bullet combo I had in hand,would deliver the goods.

Don't the Scandahooviens raise havoc on the Moose population annualy,with the 6.5 Swede? Aren't they required to demonstrate field marksmanship skills,before being issued a license? Aren't they allowed to field as "big" of a rifle,as they would like? Those Boys can shoot,take it seriously and have little trouble filling tags,when the opportunity is presented.

My cure for marksmanship,isn't more rifle. The Swede,7mmMauser,257Roberts,260,7-08,308 and countless others,are very capable and easy to do well with.

It has been my observation,that as recoil energies rise,competence suffers,for "Joe Average".................

14 February 2002, 18:12

<Don Martin29>

john holmes,

I for one really enjoy debating with Big Stick. This is way better than waiting a whole month for the next Outdoor Life and what Jack would have to say about Elmer.

You and I both know he is wrong (for the average hunter). Lets prove it with facts and considered opinion.

14 February 2002, 18:18

<Don Martin29>

Big Stick,

Just because some actor said that in a movie does not make it good advice. I felt I had no limitation in those woods.

We all want to aim a .22-250 and have a .375 H&H hit the game. But shooting a weak bullet is not where to start. It's ok for Bell and Big Stick but rifles are easy to aim.

"think you can or think you can't either way you will be right"

14 February 2002, 18:26

<Big Stick>

john holmes,

Again,you are colorful entertainment.

Just what does the 180gr at 2800fps do,that can't be done with the 22" barreled 7-08 140gr at 2850fps? Assuming quality projectiles in each?

I'm still patiently awaiting your thoughts and experiences,on the performance of the two.

You win the award(hands down I might add)for the Forums Poster,with the least bit of working ballistics knowledge. Also the award,for being concerned about the two most meaningless inches of barrel length,in a ballistics discussion(a 24" long 7-08,for an added 50fps vs it's 22" counterpart).

You have the same resources at your disposal,as I do,for substantiating claims. Take another pill,keeping digging through the data,until you find something that strikes your fancy.

I'll be happy to comment on anything you might find from the Ammo Manufacturers or Reloading Manuals................

14 February 2002, 18:37

<Big Stick>

Don,

That was pretty good,though taken out of the context offered.

So your train of thought is the neophyte toting a 26" Sendero in 300Win,is without limitations in the field?

I would argue that.

Very few guys actually do anything constructive,in the regards to rifle practice. It's stop at Wal-Mart,buy a box of '06 shells and stop the truck enroute to the field,to see if they can hit an empty box of beer 2 out of 3 times at 50yds. An expert,that does not make. Sadly,that happens more than most would lend thought to.

I'm the first to preach practice. I think most guys would have much better results in the field,if they did practice more(some don't at all). My contention is that it is very difficult to be very good at something,you don't do very much of. There are exceptions,but as a rule,that is 99.999% on the money.

A guy that has a rifle that is both accurate and fun to shoot,is more likely to practice with it. That practice will do him more good,than the particular headstamp of the cartridges in his pocket.

If you see it differently,that's your business.

Just what would you deem a "weak" bullet and what is your criteria for evaluation?.............

14 February 2002, 18:46

<john holmes>

Man big stick,when I read the part about the "two most meaningless inches" I thought you were going tell us about what your old lady says about your crotch area. As for what the 180 gr bullet at 2800 does,it offers more energy then the 7-08,which equates to more effectiveness.

14 February 2002, 19:01

<Big Stick>

That "extra" energy is going to allow you to perform what particular task,at what range,on what kind of critter? As compared to the 7-08.

To be more concise. Where is the limits of the 7-08,in a direct comparison? And to what limits does the 30-06 keep going?

Just dying to hear this one..............

14 February 2002, 19:24

<john holmes>

The energy of the 30/06 as compared to the 7-08 becomes evident on deer and even more evident on animals like elk. As for limits,the 7-08 is limited in the fact that no matter how you try to minipulate the numbers, the 30/06 is always going to perform at higher velocities and therefore produce more energy then the 7-08.

14 February 2002, 19:46

<Big Stick>

john holmes,

That was a 3rd Grade answer,to a 4th Grade question(par for the course). So I will slow down,so you can grasp it.

At what distance,does the 7-08 stop killing Deer effectively?

At what distance does the 30-06 stop killing Deer effectively?

At what distance does the 7-08 stop killing Elk effectively?

At what distance does the 30-06 stop killing Elk effectively?

How much energy do you deem necessary? How much impact velocity do you deem necessary? What is your favorite 30-06 load(bullet choice and at what muzzle velocity)?

The numbers are yours to manipulate. Have your way with them..................

14 February 2002, 20:53

<Frank>

I have a 7-08 ackley in a 20 inch barrel it shoots 140grn bullets at 3020fps. The 30-06 cant get that in a 20 inch barrel Ill take one step further the 30-06 Ackley can't shoot that either in a 20 inch barrel. I also would say that the 7-08 is more accurate. Now saying all this, I love the 30-06 it can shoot heaver bullets better. But I feel for most N/A game I don't need anything more than a 150grn bullet. So I would rather carry a 20 inch medium action than a long action for deer hunting.

14 February 2002, 22:04

Socrates

Much to do, about nothing. I'm sure the elk, and the deer, wouldn't know the difference between any of these rounds, since they are close together, and based on the same case.

Big Stick's major point is, less recoil, and more accuracy.
Hunter hits target.

I'll give him that 30-06 do have more recoil then other, lesser calibers, or lighter bullets, from the same case, out of different caliber guns. And, the game won't know the difference. I think 223 is plenty for deer, but, for bear and elk, something that has a bigger diameter should let the blood out quicker, given similar bullets.

For a necked down case to be the ticket, the
range must be greater then normal.

The guys I went with, didn't fire over 300
yards, because of the woods, etc.

Not the wide open spaces.

Since I have not hunted elk, or deer, or bear, or been around guys that have, in any other then mountain ranges with large trees, and many of them, closely spaced, as a general rule, I'm kind of curious if the average shot required is, as Big Stick has pointed out, easier to do with a necked down 06?
Or, are the bigger animals taken in more wooded, shorter shot terrain, resulting in an advantage to larger caliber, heavier bullets, to avoid deflection, and, to render any sort of drop or drift stats immaterial??

I guess your view of what works best, might be colored by the terrain you have to fire in.

I prefer 45 caliber for wooded 'hunting'.
Goes through small trees, and, at the ranges
we might hunt '2 legged game' flat firing wasn't an issue.

Also 45 caliber has proven VERY effective, even with a lower velocity, on most game.

If 230 grain hard ball, at 750, will happily zip through a deer, leaving a large hole, what would the same slug, at 1700, or greater do, besides jump crimp;-) sometimes?

Anyway, 45 made one feel very safe on treks through the Santa Cruz mountains, when it was the murder capital of the world...

PS: I like Mike...;-)
If you can fire it, the 375 is my favorite of the group.

------------------
I love 45
santilli@singleaction45.com

15 February 2002, 05:03

Wstrnhuntr

Ray,

The velocities I listed in the first post are not my loads perse. They are published reloading data and both calibers were from the same book, so if one is conservative it must be safe to assume that they both are.

Big Stick,

Sectional density is far from the last word in killing power. I gave you a leg to stand on and you sawed it off, you said it yourself. The 7-08 is "better suited" with 140-150 grain bullets whereas the 06 is quite at home with 180 grains and anybody with the least bit of understanding in the matter knows what those different bullets are well suited for. So, If you want to use the 7-08 with 140-150 grain bullets for killing large bear then it doesnt sound much to me like your "specalizing" your equipment as so many 06 nay-sayers say is so important, but rather that your trying to make the 7-08 a "jack of all trades" and for that Im afraid its going to fall woefully short of old reliable at the upper end of the energy game.

Nuff said..