new to big game hunting and need some advise

31 August 2001, 15:46

<gone hunting>

i've always been a duck and varmint hunter, till last november that is. a friend took me deer hunting and now i'm hooked. last season i used his winchester 270 and liked it vary well.
this year i want my own rifle.
i'm on a vary limited budget, i've got $550 to get started with. i'm looking at the winchester black shadow at wally world, it's 300 win. mag with a 3x9x40 scope [cheap]. out the door it's $405.
i already load my own varmint rounds and shotgun loads so for now the other cash will go to 300 win mag dies and comps.
how is the black shadow rifle?
i know the scope is junk and i'm looking to replace it soon, hows is the burris fullfield II 3x9x40? the weaver V9 & V10
or the new redfield 3x9x40 golden 5 star?
thanks for any help

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born on a mountian, raised in a cave, hunting and fishing is all i crave!

[This message has been edited by gone hunting (edited 08-31-2001).]

31 August 2001, 18:55

<10point>

Gone I was raised with Bowhunting and waterfowling in the midwest, I didnt go out West until I was 18yo and , small world, my first few western hunts were with a .270 win.

I think the .270 win is a fine, fine round. Have you shot a 300 mag yet ? Why havnt you considered getting your own .270win or a 3006 ? The .270 win will do all it needs to as long as the hunter does his part. If you havnt been into rifles much I stronlgy suggest you buy an '06 or .270. I STRONGLY SUGGEST THIS.

2nd,ly I suggest you forego the reloding componants and use that money to buy a bit more rifle and scope. A model-700 Laminated/stainless is a nice entry level rifle but I wouldnt buy less then that. Then get a decent Leupold scope, or at the least a Nikon, it just doesnt pay to cut corner's ehre.

Thats where getting a 3006 comes into play. Not only is it a dandy, lethal, and versatile round but you can get by the 1st year without reloding cause the ammo is cheap enough. The Federal HE loads give you 300 mag performance anyway, I can attest to that with this Wildebeast I took with my '06 and Fed's HE load "180 grn Partition", from almost 300 yrds away I got a thru and thru right above the shoulder.

I couldnt have asked more from any 300 Mag.

I dont think its a good idea to cut corner's like you are thinking, especially considering it will only cost a few bucks more to buy the proper equipment. Waiting a year to buy reloading gear is meaningless, the '06 will keep you more then happy.

When I was 18yo I could have bought a M-700 3006 and had just as a successful last 21 years as ive had, "having used many rifles and caliber's". Thats how good the 3006 is, even over 100 years since its 1st chambering its still #1 in ammo sales.

Im a fan of the 30 cal. magnums as well. I just dont really, personaly, feel the need to have one right now. I respect those shooters and hunters who have 7mm mags, there are many 7mm mag shooters who are much more accomplished then I, but to me they are like tit's on a Bull.

No my friend, you need a 3006. Realalistic Bullet weight ranges for hunting from 150 grn to 220 grn's are terrific, as are bullets types available. I would leave the magnums until you have a few years under your belt and , with already owning a 3006, then you can go look for a 300, .338, or .375 mag to give your rack more versatality.

I Think if you follow my advice you'll be happy. Also keep in mind theres nothing wrong with a .270 , its a goodie. Put that .270 win bullet in the boiler room and you'll have meat for the Larder.......good shooting...........10

01 September 2001, 09:27

boltman

I agree with 10point's suggestion of a .30-06 or .270. The .300 win mag is a good round but it won't do anything that a .30-06 won't. Given your $550 budget I'd forget the package gun (you're paying extra for the cheap scope when they ought to be paying you for taking the piece of crap). There are several high quality guns that will serve you well and allow you to put a decent scope on them for $550 total. The winchester black shadow, Remington M700 ADL, weatherby vanguard, Howa 1500, and my personal favorite low budget shooter the savage 110. Buy any one of those and then throw a Leupold Vari-XII 3x9x40 on it in leupold dual dovetail mounts and you'll have a fine shooting rifle that will shoot with the best of them. The scopes you mentioned are probably okay but the Leupold is better so why mess with them when you can get a Leupold for the same amount of money and then you won't have to worry about it breaking. I'm all for reloading, it's the best way get familiar with your rifle. It sounds like you already have everything you need since you load your own varmit rounds. Just buy some dies for $20 or so and shoot till you can't stand it.

01 September 2001, 02:59

Wendell Reich

Boltman and 10-pt couldn't have put it better.

My opinion: Get a Remington 700 ADL from "Wally World", in 270 or 30-06 (I would do a 30-06) $350. Put a Leupold Vari-XII 3x9x40 $210, and you have a very,very good gun at right at $560. Then add the mounts, $25-40 and tax and you will be looking at $650 or so. Take the plunge, the extra $100 represents a world of difference in quality.

In my opinion, it is the only way to go. Don't jack around with cheap optics, you will be sorry! Take it from me!

By the way if you want to buy a cheap scope, call me! I have a box full of the useless bas***ds!

------------------
Wendell Reich
Hunter's Quest International

01 September 2001, 03:58

Rob1SG

Rifle choice is a personal thing. I have learned one thing over the years though buy the best and you won't be disappointed later.Scopes are the same don't buy cheap ones you'll be disappointed and at the wrong time. Like during a hunt. Check this web site for some of the best prices around www.Bearbasin.com.

01 September 2001, 04:18

John Frazer

Ditto on the .270 and .30-06--that's what I have and I'm putting off anything bigger for a while. If I can't kill it with a heavy .30 cal. bullet at 2500-2700 fps, it doesn't live in the lower 48, and I'm not going anywhere else any time soon.

Another option for a rifle would be one of the imports--the Yugo Mark X Mausers are supposed to start coming in again this fall. A good solid action and since they were imported for so many years before, there are lots of stocks, etc. available for them.

01 September 2001, 04:31

<Jeff S>

Everyone had given you good advice! The mid weight magums offer no real "practical" advantage over the standard 30-06 or .270 Winchester. Yes they are faster and flatter--on paper. No, it doesn't make a difference in the field--all the way out to 400 yards.
If you do your part and put your bullet where it counts it really doesn't make a difference what you are shooting. The mid weight magnums cost a LOT more to shoot, are much bigger and heavier guns, have more recoil and muzzle blast and don't buy you a nickle's difference in down range performance. To paraphrase Jeff Cooper: "If a 30-06 won't fetch your elk for you, it is unlikely that a .300 Win mag will do so either."

01 September 2001, 04:36

Stonecreek

Dear Gone:

Watch out when you ask for advice around here-- your going to get it!

I don't think you're that far off track. Nothing wrong with an '06 or .270, but nothing's wrong with the .300 either, especially if you're going to hunt something larger than deer.

If you buy that Winchester package, dismount the cheap scope and sell it. You won't get a lot for it, but whatever you get out of it, apply to a Leupold 3-9 Vari-X II. This is the very best scope for the money on the market, and since they're being phased out, you can probably get one for $200 or less.

Go ahead and buy that reloading equipment. Reloading for your rifle is often more than half the fun (after all, look at the name of this web site -- it's not "Shooting Factory Ammo for Economy and Pleasure"). Since you already load for varmints, you know more about load development than most reloaders who load primarily for game.

It's your money. Take the route that pleases you best. But remember, shooting factory ammo at game is a lot like kissing your sister -- there's a dimension missing that's going to limit your enjoyment.

01 September 2001, 05:37

<gone hunting>

i left out some info that effects my choice of the 300win mag winchester. also while i'm new to big game hunting i'm no way recoil sensitive. 3 1/2" 12ga or any 10ga will teach you to handle recoil.
i like the winchester for several reasons,
it has a 26' barrel, it's easily rechambered to 300RUM, 3pos. safety etc.. i plan to build on this rifle as soon as my new house is finished [march or april].
as to the leupold scopes all but one of my varmint rifles have them [6], the 1 has a burris 8x32, i'm leaning to the burris fullfield 2 because of it's ballistic plex rectal, also to me it's optics are better than the VarX2 line, in the end it'll get a VarX3 3.5x10x50 i just can't swing it right now.
any and all input welcome.

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born on a mountian, raised in a cave, hunting and fishing is all i crave!

[This message has been edited by gone hunting (edited 08-31-2001).]

01 September 2001, 08:11

Canuck

Gone,

Notwithstanding all the excellent advice given so far, I feel that the .300 Mag is an excellent choice for a "one-gun" big game hunter, provided you know what your getting into. I would normally suggest a .270 or '06 to a beginner, but it does seem as though you are not new to the shooting sports.

When I was 18 I bought a .300 Mag to be my one gun battery. For 10 years I used it for everything (whitetails, muleys, goat, sheep, moose, elk). It worked(s) great. It has only been the last few years that I have been able to afford expanding my "collection".

I have not personally tried the black shadow rifle, and I only own Leupolds, so I cannot comment on the gun or scope.

FWIW,
Canuck

03 September 2001, 05:43

John S

I think your choice of rifle and caliber are excellent!

The Black Shadow has the great M70 action which has the best trigger/safety unit of any production rifle. Sorry to all the Remington lovers here, the safety on a 700 is pure crap, as is their new key lock that was integrated into the bolt shroud.
The 300 Win mag is an excellent cartridge for the one rifle hunter. How anyone can state it is no better in the field than the 30/06 or 270 is beyond me. No, it's no better on deer/antelope but on larger game it is most definitely better. I've used the 270, 30/06 and 300mag for years and there is no question in my mind which I'd choose if limited to just one of them.

03 September 2001, 06:38

<gone hunting>

i got the black shadow, and i got a Burris fullfield II 3x9x40 off of Ebay for $156 to my door.
now to pillar bed the stock and work up some loads.
thanks to all

------------------
born on a mountian, raised in a cave, hunting and fishing is all i crave!

03 September 2001, 06:41

<10point>

I dont think shooting shot-guns and shooting rifles give the same feeling of recoil ; I'd say they are much different. If youv never shot a 300 mag before and have shot only one biggame rifle once , a 270 win,then ,IMOHO, you have not shot enough rifles to just jump into a 300 mag.

In the end tho, its only you that knows if thats the rifle you should buy. I dont know a thing about this "Black Shadow", I always thought it was a Remington. But to buy reloading componants instead of a decent scope is shear Lunacy.

I like the .300 magnum's, I shoot a .338 myself. So much of their "supposed" recoil is a matter of stock fit. To me the 300 & .338 mags are the most versatile loads/rifles made but I dont think they are a good fit to the new shooter.

Tho ,like I said earlier, Gone Hunting only you can say whether recoil is a factor for you. My gut feeling with you is thats its not a big thing, if thats true then one of the .300 mag's would be a winner.

Ive personaly seen quite a few middle aged men that couldnt shoot a .300 mag due to recoil ,"tho theve mostly been the Weatherby's". Last year, while on my Elk hunt, I saw a guy zeroing his 300 Weatherby, strike a Hangfire "reloaded round" and jerk the trigger all over the place. He went on to cripple the best Bull of the trip "from 125 yrds" and he got lucky and killed a raghorn from 150 yrds. He just clipped the lower heart on his kill, while he was jerking a "soul train" all over western Colorado.

The funny thing is that guy's like that never even think they have a problem, its always "the wind" , or , "the Load". I think that some guy's like that just dont think they are "manly" unless they shoot a magnum. This particular one Im talking about bought his because the other two guy's he hunts with have the same rifle.

The sad thing is the 3006 and the .270 are such grand rounds, and highly lethal, there is no shame, or shouldnt be, with starting out with one. Hell, many an highly experienced hunter never even goes bigger then an '06.

So best of luck with whatever you choose Gone Hunting. You might also find out that switching a load setup from shotguns to a particular rifle load is much more expensive then just buying a few $20 die's. For the first year that money would be better spent on a good scope, no matter what rifle you buy.

again, best of luck..........10

[This message has been edited by 10point (edited 09-02-2001).]

04 September 2001, 10:51

John Frazer

quote:
Originally posted by gone hunting:
i got the black shadow, and i got a Burris fullfield II 3x9x40 off of Ebay for $156 to my door.

Before you put your eBay bargain into service, be sure to do a couple quick checks:

1. With the turret caps off, dunk it in a sinkful of hot tap water. Watch all the seals for bubbles of escaping gas.

2. Shoot as careful a group as you can at 100 yds. with it set on 9x. Mark the group by connecting the three shots into a triangle. Then turn the power ring down to 3X and shoot another group on the same target.

If you have any leakage or a significant shift in point of impact, send it in for service. I'm sending in two Leupolds tomorrow that I bought on eBay. Both are used but serviceable, except that the 4x leaks and the 2-7X shifts 1.5" to 4 o'clock when shifting from 7x to 2x.

05 September 2001, 02:39

Pete E

Personally I'd look at a Tikka in 6.5x55 or
7x57mmm but that may not be the best choice for an American deer hunter. Its hard to go wrong with either the .270 or the 30-06, but I think the latter is a touch more of an all- rounder. I would not buy a .300win mag without trying it first, preferabably in the same style rifle as you intended to buy.
As for a scope look at a secondhand Leupold
Vari 111 or 6x42M8. Couple the rifle and scope together with decent steel fixed mounts for a trouble free set up. Avoid gimmicks such as see thru mounts and get a set which mounts the scope as low as possible.

05 September 2001, 08:54

Stonecreek

quote:
Originally posted by gone hunting:
i got the black shadow, and i got a Burris fullfield II 3x9x40 off of Ebay for $156 to my door.
now to pillar bed the stock and work up some loads.
thanks to all

You done good, so far. Now, downgrade that $150 bathroom faucet in the new house to a $25 model and go buy the dies and components you need to load for your new gun. The wife will never know the difference in the faucets and your hunting experience will be substantially enhanced by shooting your own loads.