X-mas surprise for a young hunter. Which rifle/caliber/scope?

12 December 2001, 04:43

Mark in SC

I had the priviledge several years ago of taking a 14 year old boy on his first deer hunt. His father does not hunt, but the boy's grandfather did when he was younger and had kindled an interest in hunting in his grandson.

I taught him to shoot a Ruger #1 in 6mm Rem., instructed him in safety matters, had him shoot at lifesize deer targets to teach proper shot placement, and discussed the ethics of responsible hunting.

When he was ready, I put him on a deerstand and waited nearby. In less than an hour he had cleanly shot a big doe through the shoulders and dropped her in her tracks. A new hunter was created to join our ranks!

Shortly thereafter the Columbine shootings took place and his mother forbade him to have anything to do with firearms. However, his interest continued and his father has won the grudging approval of his mother to buy him his first rifle for Christmas.

He called and asked me to tell him exactly what he should buy, since he knows nothing about guns. He wants to buy his son a rifle that he will treasure and use the rest of his life, and perhaps pass along to his sons one day. The boy is now 17 years old, 6' tall and very athletic.

My suggestion was a bolt action rifle (either Winchester or Remington) in .30/06 with a brown, laminated wood stock, stainless steel action and a 3.5-10x50 Leupold Vari-X III in Talley rings and bases. I can't imagine a more versatile or practical set-up for a first rifle.

What would you suggest?

P.S. I'm also going to have the thrill of taking him hunting again with his new rifle over the holidays!

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NRA and GOA Life Member
Do your part to protect our 2nd Amendment rights and preserve our hunting heritage!

12 December 2001, 05:17

R Flowers

Right on, you have made a good choice of firearms.

How can I get on your Christmas list?

Seriously, I do not see how you could go wrong with what you are suggesting. It is great to get a kid shooting and hunting and that rig would last him for a lifetime.

Great!

R F

12 December 2001, 05:20

8MM OR MORE

What a pleasant thing to be involved in!! Has the young man shot enough guns to have expressed a preference? If not, your idea would not be a bad one. I'm sure the young man can have FUN shooting it and hunting with it. My own tastes run to the larger calibers, perhaps a big bore lever gun. They are fun to shoot, good to hunt with. The scope I am not so sure about. Learning to shoot and hunt with iron teaches a lot, graduating to a scope can be a good learning process.

12 December 2001, 05:27

Atkinson

Good for you and your choices are good, except that scope leaves me cold, big and awkard, why not a nice 2x7 or even a 1.5x5 on a hunting rifle...Even my varmint rifles have 3x9's max...Big scopes leave me cold, and are the pride of the less experienced hunters IMHO. Bigger ain't always better. balance is.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

12 December 2001, 05:34

John S

Much as I hate to, I will wholeheartedly agree with Ray on this. That scope is not needed at all on a 30/06 for any conceivable use. Too big and bulky looking for a sporter.
My choices for the outfit would be a M70crf in wood with blued metal, or s/s if you must! Scope would be the 2.5-8x variX3 and caliber would be 300WSM or 300Win. magnum.

12 December 2001, 05:47

Sheister

While recommending a 30-06 for anyone's first gun could never be seen as a mistake, looking at where you are located I would think a .270 or 25-06 might be a better choice. Unless you are planning on hunting bigger game or hunting out of state, for southern deer either of these would be more than sufficient, flat shooting, little recoil and easy to shoot.
I agree with Ray and John, that is way too much scope especially with the 50MM objective lens. I know that in parts of the country you hunt at O'dark thirty, but the 50MM objective won't give you much in light gathering, and will be bulky, out of balance, and require higher rings to mount. My personal choice (for a first rifle) would be a cost effective Leupold VariX II 3x9- a better scope for the money just doesn't exist, IMHO.
Also, although Talley rings and bases are very nice, a set of leupold bases and rings would work just fine and save some serious money better spent on ammo for practice.
All the rest, Blue or Stainless, wood, laminate, or synthetic are all personal choices. Maybe the lucky young man should be involved in the decision? This could involve several trips to the store for the father and son to make a decision- can you imagine time better spent? Maybe the father will get interested with all this exposure?

- Sheister

12 December 2001, 06:30

7x57

Mark,
I must agree with Ray. A scope with a 50 mm lens will have to be mounted higher than a 40 or a 32. I think the young man would have more chance for sucess with his new rifle scope setup if he could rest his cheek on the gun when shooting.IMHO
Bryan

12 December 2001, 06:37

Dutch

I just LOVE spending other people's money. Though the choice is good, it would not be mine. The choice of rifles leaves me cold (I'm funny that way), and I also agree the scope is a bit much for the purpose.

This kid is hunting deer from a stand. What is wrong with getting him a nice Sako with open sights, in something like 260 or 6.5 Swede? A truly nice rifle, and should do just dandy on everything this young man will do for the next year? Or even his own #1. If that's what he learned to shoot with, he'll have a weak spot for it, anyway.

Then, next year, give him a nice Leupold scope for Christmas? Just a thought. Dutch.

12 December 2001, 06:37

<Wolverine>

I agree about the 50mm objective, Leupold makes the same basic scope with a 40mm objective. Winchester and Remington are both excellent rifles with some work, but out of the box they are a crap shoot these days. I would recommend a Tikka.

12 December 2001, 06:46

<PrimeTime>

Thats a great scope but would be better with a 40mm objective. I think that everyone must remember though, that a preference is just that, a preference. I am a lifelong hunter and serious long range varminter and target shooter. I like the higher power scopes, especially for a ground hog out there at 600 yards. For a carrying deer rifle though, a Leupold Varix 11 3-9 would be ideal or the vari-x111 3.5-10 x 40mm. Have fun!

12 December 2001, 07:13

the444shooter

couldn't agree more with the 30'06 choice...and I do agree w/ the ranks of everyone with the 40mm vs. 50mm objective. 40mm is PLENTY and I'm sure he will feel comfortable with it. I am torn as to whether the 3x9 is better than the 3.5x10 on the '06 as it has the range with lighter bullets (150-165gr)and the added range of visibility would be appreciated. In fact, I'm about to put a 3.5x10 on my own 30'06.

Believe me, this kid will think fondly of this Christmas, for the rest of his life.

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God Bless and Shoot Straight

12 December 2001, 09:25

<Ol' Sarge>

To anyone that thinks an -06 is too much gun I say phooey.

My 5' 100# daughter handles 'em just fine.

The scope is the problem. Too big.

May I suggest a Nikon 4x42 fixed? Mounted as low as possible. Four power is plenty of magnification to beyond 350 yards.

Everyone ought to do what you're doing.

Thanks.

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Jesus is the reason for the season.

12 December 2001, 09:34

Curtis_Lemay

30/06 is too small. Get him a real game killer, a 50 BMG. You can get a cheap one for a grand or two.

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When in doubt, do a nuclear strike.

12 December 2001, 11:53

<Don Martin29>

Atkinson is right on the scopes. A simple 4X would be fine.

A feather weight 22" bbl bolt in 30-06 will be perfect.

When I was that age woodchuck hunting was a lot more fun and the season is much longer. Thats where some real shooting gets done. Consider saving some money on the deer rifle and getting him a varmint rifle too.

12 December 2001, 11:59

beemanbeme

This will surprise a lot of folks but I would opt for a model 7 in 7mm-08 with a 2x7 compact leupold scope. Good for anything in the western hemisphere except the great bears.

12 December 2001, 13:50

<Elliot Viker>

Is this young hunter going to hunt anything other than deer or larger game with this gun? If he is going to hunt some varmits with the same gun, perhaps one of the varmit\deer chamberings would be the ticket. This would also leave the door open for another larger gun to be purchased in the future. You can never just have one.

12 December 2001, 13:54

RSY

Sounds like a good set-up. For the scope, though, I'd get him a Burris...either a 2-7x Fullfield or 2-8x Signature. These have plenty of light-gathering and magnification with their 32mm objective lenses. I use mine regularly in west Texas, where you can see quite a ways, as you can imagine.

RSY

12 December 2001, 16:03

trigger

I grew up in the your area and started deer hunting there back when you realy had to hunt to find a deer(not that I was any good at it).

Sounds like a good setup to me.

But - Folks that haven't seen the area would be surprised at the many potential 300+ yd shoots. Across Fields and down Power line right of ways.
My preference would be a 280 Remington or even 270 Win because it shoots a little flatter and kicks a little less. Still the 30-06 is a great choice.

I like the 2.5-8 X 36 VXIII and the 2-7X32 or 3-9X40 VXII. I got over the big scope craze a while back. If cost is a factor, then it's the soon to be discontinued VXII 3-9X40 hands down- some real deals out there.

Thanks for taking the time to give the young man a proper introduction to hunting.

I started out with a 788 Remington in 308 Win and 4X40 Tasco and did quite well with it. Still got it ( with a new scope) and my 14 year old is using it. Still shooting 3/4" groups with my handloads.

12 December 2001, 17:34

35nut

Mark
I have had the privilege of introducing a youngster to hunting also.
The situation was almost identical to yours except that his mother is a single mother.
There was no dad to buy the gun. So I did it.
His first rifle was a Rem 700 in 35 whelen. Toped with a 4x Leo. The reason for the fix power was I wanted him to concentrate on the shot not what the scope was set on.
Up here we shoot at a little bit bigger critters than you do. The boy was 11 at the time. He is now 16 and I think that I have got a hunting partner for life. I get him a new rifle every year. So far he has a 17 Rem, 243 win, 280 Rem, 338 win, and the 35 whelen. The best part about this is his mother will not allow guns in her house so they stay at my place. These rifles are his and when he gets a place for them he will get them. And of course I am trying to shoot the bbl out of them in the meantime.

We have a deal that I buy the gun and he scrapes the money for the scope. He will not skimp on a scope, He gets leos or Shepardï¿½s.
It works out great as his birthday is Dec 23 and it gets it and Christmas in one swipe. This year he is getting a 7mm-08 (I am getting it from POP in the classified on this board. Thanks POP) He uses all of the rifles but the 35 whelen is his favorite.
It has got him 3 black bear, 1 grizzly and 3 moose. The 280 has accounted for 4 caribou. The small bores always go for coyote, fox, lynx, and wolf. The 338 is the only one he has not blooded yet and it is because he got an f in school and I would not take him hunting this year. That was devastating to him (and me) and I bet that that never happens again.

12 December 2001, 18:48

Brian M

Mark,

Well,since he did well with the Ruger #1,why not get him one of his own?They will last a lifetime for sure.

A #1A in 243,270 or 7x57 makes a beautiful little rifle which would be perfect for your type of hunting.A #1B again in 243,25/06 or 270 would be exellent.For overall deer hunting,the #1B in 25/06 would be hard to beat.

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I'm out to wrong rights,depress the opressed,and generaly make an ass of myself!

12 December 2001, 20:17

BBBruce

Rifle = great. Scope = not my choice. I'd prefer lower power, say 2x7 or 1.5x5.

13 December 2001, 09:36

the444shooter

I don't understand why everyone thinks it is a poor choice of scope..."I" for one think it's a great idea. The majority of my time spent in the field, I use my scope in place of binoculars...now I know I shouldn't, because of safety reasons, but heck, I don't own a good pair of binoculars, I can't afford them, and they aren't convenient. Even if I owned some, I would probably still use my scope 75% of the time. If the young hunter recieves the 3.5-10 and prefers a lower power, he can just turn it down to 3.5, 4, or 5 pwr, and when the added range of the 9 or 10 pwr is needed/wanted, he can just crank it up!!! Simple as that. I hunt in a variety of environments, from plains to timber, and I have a 3.5-10x40 on my rifle...when in the prairie/plains, it's cranked up to 10, when in the timber, it's down to 3.5, such versatility is a wonderful option. With the original rifle/scope combo in question (30'06/3.5-10) It would be suited for every type of hunting on this continent. It'd be hard to find a better combo for all around usefulness.

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God Bless and Shoot Straight

13 December 2001, 09:50

Ol Bull

35Nut,
Your a Good Man

Teach him well!

13 December 2001, 09:56

Ol Bull

Mark,
Sorry, Ditto on the Good Man

,
I think your choice is fine for deer hunting in SC.

13 December 2001, 03:11

sxr6

I know all you hairy chested men will dis but I think 30-06 is to much for a 16year old & deer. I've seen a lot of grow men flinch so bad they hardly hit the backboard shooting a 06 that they say don,t kick bad especially in a feathweight. I'd go for a .308, 7-08, .260 or .257 in a lightweight bolt of your preferance with a 2-7 or 2.5-10 scope.

13 December 2001, 06:49

HunterJim

We all have our favorities and dislikes. I started with a .30-06 Rem M721 when I was 12, but I bought myself a 6.5X55 with my paper route $. You can go anywhere and shoot anything with a .30-06 and the right 220 grain bullet, but I have a better result starting kids out hith a smaller rifle.

The next grandson coming up will get a Ruger M77 .250-3000 Savage I bought and stuck away for just this situation. I also like the .257 Roberts, 6.5X55, .260 Rem, 7mm-08, 7X57 or .308 Win. Kids have great eyes (usually) so they can start with iron sights, or the scope. If the scope I like the low power variables as the most general purpose *hunting* scope.

Anyway, thank you for bringing another hunter into the group! We all need to bring the kids in, both boys and girls...jim

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"if you are to busy to
hunt, you are too busy."

13 December 2001, 07:03

<Eagle Eye>

I agree with the minority here...the 30-06 isn't a great starter rifle. A general purpose caliber it is but American sized deer don't require it. It has been written and stated for many years....the 30-06 is at the upper limit of most men's recoil tollerance. Not the tollerance of these avid shooters on this board of course...but the average man. Nothing can turn off a young shooter or help them to develop a flinch faster than a hard kicker. I agree with poster from Ontario (which is an oddity for someone from Alberta) that a short action mid-sized caliber with a mid power scope (like a Leupold 2.5x8) is the ticket for a beginner and will do the job for all his adult life. IMHO, even a full size action in a 25-06 or 270 would be a better choice than the 30-06.

13 December 2001, 07:15

<Reloader66>

The full potential of the rifle is compromised with a short barrel, get him a 24" or 26" barrel to get the full velocity the rifle has to offer. Young men have great vision and can shoot rings around us old guys with glasses. Put a 3X9 or 4X12 scope with AO optics and fine cross hairs on the rifle.
Now we must choose the cartridge for this young mans first rifle. The 30-06 is and remains very popular with many weight bullets to choose from. It has mild recoil and will take any medium size game animal out to 350 yds.
The rifle will depend on who chambers that cartridge in there rifles. I favor the Weatherby Vanguard rifle because it is well made has a good action and trigger pull with it's sako style extractor, also is very reasonable in price. The Vanguard by Weatherby shows better quality than the Remington 700. The cost involved for the rifle, scope, bases, rings, rifle sling will be about 800 bucks.
You must learn to walk before you run. This young man may or may not continue to hunt. many things can happen in the next few seasons. I would not go over board buying him a 1500 dollar out fit he may sell for 100 bucks down the road.

13 December 2001, 09:46

<Wolverine>

the444shooter:

Have you ever had someone point a loaded hunting rifle at you when they were scoping for deer? It's not a good feeling.

13 December 2001, 09:56

Ralph

I've started both of my 2 nephews hunting when they were 9 years old with a single shot .410 then they graduated to a 30/30 bolt action with fixed 4x. Both boys received new rifles from my gunroom when they were 13. The older one chose a 30.06 with a 3x9 and the younger one chose a .270 with a 3x9. They are now 13 and 16 years old. They have never been bothered by recoil as we all made a point of never talking about it. Both have shot my .375H&H from a standing position and handled it well. I guess my point is with good shooting instructions young boys can handle any of these calibers with no problem. I beleive the choice of a 30.06 with a 3x9 quality scope will be an enduring rifle that will be kept forever and capable of hunting most anything. I prefer the VariXlll much more than the VariXll but there are other fine optics on the market.
Ralph

13 December 2001, 10:22

Dutch

Am I the only one that picked up on the irony in Ralph's statement? "They have never been bothered by recoil as we all made a point of never talking about it".

You know, I'm 6'5" and 240 lbs, and recoil bothers me, insofar that heavy recoil creates a flinch, if I don't watch it.

Maybe I don't have enough hair on my chest.....? LOL!

As far as the "scopes as binoculars statement", there WILL be a day when you do that, and someone is going to draw the conclusion you are about to shoot at you, and take precautions accordingly......

Dutch.

13 December 2001, 11:18

LE270

quote:
Originally posted by sxr6:
I know all you hairy chested men will dis but I think 30-06 is to much for a 16year old & deer. I've seen a lot of grow men flinch so bad they hardly hit the backboard shooting a 06 that they say don,t kick bad especially in a feathweight. I'd go for a .308, 7-08, .260 or .257 in a lightweight bolt of your preferance with a 2-7 or 2.5-10 scope.

I agree very much with sxr6's opinion.

I think a .260 Remington would be excellent for a first rifle. It will work for everything smaller than elk, and I wouldn't hesitate to use it for elk if I didn't have something larger available. 7mm/08 would also be excellent.

If this young man is going to do some varmint hunting -- an excellent idea, since it will give him something to shoot during the off season, and also teach him hunting skills -- one of the 25 calibers or 6.5mm's would be far better than a 30 caliber (30/06 or .308).

I also agree with all the people who have said the scope with the 50mm objective is much too large and heavy.

13 December 2001, 13:02

the444shooter

Wolverine,
Yes I've been "scoped out" by people, definate pucker factor there. However, I guess I'm just putting as much faith in him as I do myself as far as safety and smarts go.

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God Bless and Shoot Straight

13 December 2001, 14:19

<Paladin>

Um, why don't you visit a little with the kid and get him to tell you which rifles he thinks are the neatest and most interesting? His tastes are forming rapidly and if he sees any outdoor magazines, he likely has some notion of what kind of gun he'd like to own or try.....

13 December 2001, 14:19

<Wolverine>

the444shooter:

I guess I'm the opposite. I don't trust him or myself to break one of the cardinal rules of firearm safety.

13 December 2001, 14:41

<mattadams>

The scope you have choosen is probably the best for that setup. Ajustable objective is very important, especially for long shots.
Leupolds are worth every penny. Their warrenty alone makes them worth the cost.
As for the gun, a 30-06 is very versatile as far as the range of bullet weights you can put through it. However, I am partial to the 7mm, very flat shooting and hard hitting.
Whatever you decide the 30-06 is a great gun.

13 December 2001, 14:51

Curtis_Lemay

I agree with Paladin, find out what his taste in guns are, then buy him something that's a shoe-in.

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When in doubt, do a nuclear strike.

13 December 2001, 18:45

the444shooter

Wolverine...now that I think of it, I've never "scoped" a person in the field...here, we all wear orange during rifle season, so it's pretty easy to make out a human form compared to deer/elk etc...so it never has been an issue for me. Fortunately, I've had the privelege of hunting on private/semi-private land, where other hunters are not much of a concern, and I don't really get the chance to "scope" another human. When I do see another hunter though, it's quite obvious that it's a human, and I don't have to scope them out. It's that simple...so I guess that's why I never have qualms about using my scope rather than bino's. I do however, recognize the fact that it IS disconserting (sp?) when the delivering end of a rifle is pointed in your direction. Even worse when you hear the "angry bees" flying over your head. *DUCK*

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God Bless and Shoot Straight

13 December 2001, 19:30

<cohoyo>

I didn't read all the reply's in this string so forgive me if this it redundant. my first gun was a savage model 99e in .300 savage. my dad got a good deal on leupold 3x9 scopes so that's what all our guns had. I was 8 years old when I got my first deer with it and I still have it today. It kicked too hard for me when I was 8 so I'm going to give my son a browns precision 280 ackly imp. it's very light and has a 6 power leupold on it and I can load light bullets for shooting icebergs in the spring. That's the best practice I've ever found for hunting. Eventhough you're friend is big I would go with a caliber smaller than a 30-06 until he gets use to shooting. I think it's better to not start out flinching than to stop flinching later. I think a nice Winchester model 70 with the boss system would be my choice. I would get the ported boss and an unported one( it only costs $18 more for the extra unported attachment) in 270 with a 2.5-7 or 3-9 scope. my guess is he doesn't shoot much now so a .270 with a muzzle brake for the range to get use to it then you could put the non ported end on for hunting so he doesn't loose his hearing when he shoots.