Hunting Accuracy

14 November 2001, 10:55

<1_pointer>

Hunting Accuracy

I have read many posts on many different forums about the size of groups people get with different rifles and calibers, etc... I was wondering what you consider accurate enough for hunting. When I lived in Indiana, we use could only use ML and shotguns with slugs and went by the credo that if you could keep every shot in a pie pan/paper plate you could kill a deer at that distance. What do you use??

14 November 2001, 11:02

Atkinson

All my guns will shoot an inch most of the time and thats what I require...but I don't kid myself that a gun thats shoots 2.5" groups isn't good enough, I just like accruate rifles.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

14 November 2001, 12:43

<Bill>

I like my rifles to shoot sub moa.

If I hunt with a slug gun I use a smoothbore Remington 870 that will hold a 2" group at 50 yards.

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www.rifleshooter.com

14 November 2001, 13:59

beemanbeme

If your rifle will shoot under two inches and you will practice until you can mount you rifle and bring your scope on target without looking at it, you will be fine. This sort of practice can be done in the yard or living room, for that matter. Stand with your rifle in the carry position (unloaded of course), have your back turned toward the target (aka wall switch, mother-in-laws picture, etc), on signal, turn and bring the rifle to your shoulder and aline the cross hairs on the target. Slowly at first and develope speed as your technique improves. Also practice your target acquisition from the sitting, kneeling, offhand, and prone positions. All of this can be done with an unloaded gun and when you start popping caps, you'll be a better rifleman for it.

14 November 2001, 16:04

fredj338

I also like the "magic" MOA rifle, but if the rifle shoots good hunting bullets into 1.5 MOA, I'm goin hunting (out to 300yds or so)!

14 November 2001, 17:53

<OTTO>

If you are talking about factory rifles not in the varmint class, I expect 2" groups at 100 yds or smaller "out of the box" for a deer rifle. However, with a custom rifle if it doesn't go smaller than 1" or even 3/4" at 100 yds that would be unacceptable.

14 November 2001, 18:51

<Don Martin29>

Col. Whelan said "Only accurate rifles are interesting"

I agree that a 1 MOA rifle is what we want. It's really not needed for most hunting but we want it anyway.

14 November 2001, 18:57

loud-n-boomer

Accurate enough to keep all shots in the kill zone of the game hunted at the maximum range at which a shot can reasonably be expected. If you want a number, in general I agree with what most others have said, "ideally 1-inch, practically, 1-1/2 to 2-inches".

14 November 2001, 19:12

Saeed

1_pointer,

Welcome to the forum.

I might get some flack from some of my friends here, but I will stick my neck out and say the "weakest link" in the field is the man behind the gun.

Having said that, there is nothing that can give a hunter more confidence than the knowledge that his rifle is a tack driver.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

14 November 2001, 19:27

Mike375

Saeed hit the nail on the head with "confidence"

Accuracy for some of us is also important because it means the gun is "right". That is, if a rifle is shooting 2 or 3 inch groups there is something wrong with the rifle or load etc.

In reality, if you are not a very good shot from field positions, you are better off with a rifle that "sprays" the bullets.

Known as compensating errors.

Mike

14 November 2001, 22:32

BBBruce

quote:
Originally posted by Don Martin29:
Col. Whelan said "Only accurate rifles are interesting"
I agree that a 1 MOA rifle is what we want. It's really not needed for most hunting but we want it anyway.

Agreed.

15 November 2001, 00:01

1894

I've allways thought it depended on the size of the animal you're hunting. A deer the size of a dog is going to need a more accurate rifle (or a closer approach!) than a moose!

Confidence as Saeed said is the key. My mind wonders what happens if the 2MOA rifle is throws the shot 2 inches from POA in the same direction as the disregarded wind and the slight flinch/poor aim/other human error. Suddenly you're 4inches off target and on a small deer that's a lot.

Ability to hit a small post it note (1.5"x2" at 100m gives me the confidence that it's only ever going to be my fault.

15 November 2001, 00:15

<graff>

no doubt accuracy is a big concern. here and there the accuracy question is brought up. first, let's have some facts.
1. Russian sniping rifles during WWII were not tack driving Mossin-Nagants - all was asked of them was to hit a human body at 1000 arshins (780 yds) - a 20"x30" rectangle. They were not shot at 780yds, but at390yds (500 arshins). And they made 1000yd. kills...
2. Ruger rifles accuracy factory standard is of 2 inches at 50 yds. 'course, they do better, much better, but the factory limit is those 2 inches/50 yds, and that's a fact...
3. Mauser standards are similar - up to 4 inches at 100 meters is considered 'good'...
4 What Townsend Wheelen quoted was that 'most factory hunting rifles with factory ammo will average 3.5 inches at 100 yds...'
So, it boils to - what do you need?
For me, it is a little less than the 'minute-of vitals' of the game I am hunting, distances considered. This means 2 inches for deerlike animals, because 250 yds is my limit, 3 inches for bigger game, including 'minute-of-brain' in case of waterbuffs, close shots.

04 December 2001, 01:13

<Reloader66>

Slug guns and rifles are miles apart in the accuracy potential department. Rifles MOA is great, slug guns 3" groups at 50 yards is good for deer.
This season I took my range finder with me to the hunt and took my deer with my 12 guage bolt action slug gun topped with a 3X9 scope set on 4 power at 103 Yards. The slug gun was sighted to strike point of aim 1" high at 50 yards. Where did I hold you ask? I held half way between the brisket and top of the back behind the front shoulder. The slug stuck the deer in the heart for a clean one shot kill.

04 December 2001, 03:08

<Daryl Elder>

My Steyr in 30/06 will put 3 165 Noseler Parts into 5/8"@100yds. Definitely MOM(minute-of-moose).

04 December 2001, 03:59

Curtis_Lemay

I consider 1" at 100 yds marginal at best. What can I tell you, I'm spoiled. My father is a frustrated machinist with dreams of an ever increasing accurate rifle (and he's a silhouette shooter). can you say obsessive?

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When in doubt, do a nuclear strike.

04 December 2001, 08:04

John Frazer

Here's my personal pet theory. For a big game rifle, you want it accurate enough that you can get a zero you trust. If you fire a 3-shot group, find its center, and adjust the sights to move the group an inch, you should be able to tell the next group has moved.

IMHO that translates to 1.5" or so at 100 yds.

John

04 December 2001, 08:09

Paul H

If I put 3 shots into 1 to 1 1/2" at 100 yds, I'm content with my big game rifle.

What is more important to me then absolute accuracy, is consistancy, I want a gun that will put its shots to the same POI with a cold, warm, clean or dirty barrel. If a gun shoots 1/2", but has to be coddled to get that, and will throw shots by 2 or 3" when not happy, then its useless to me.

I'm hard pressed to shoot much better then 2 moa when in the field.

04 December 2001, 08:35

<Ol' Sarge>

Ditto what Saeed said.

I have 3 rifles that will put 3 shots with the hunting loads into less than 1/2" at 100 yards.

I have absolute confidence in those rifles.

There is a downside though - if ya miss, ya can't blame it on the gun

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Say what you mean, and mean what you say.

04 December 2001, 09:07

Canuck

I have to agree with many of the posts so far. The most important factor is confidence in your rifle.

For years I hunted with a .300WinMag that would shoot 1.5 to 2" groups with factory ammo. These would open up to 4 to 6" at 300 yards. That kind of accuracy was good enough and I was happy. I seldom missed anything I shot at.

After I got into re-loading and sub MOA groups became the norm, I noticed that my field marksmanship improved more than the incremental gain in bench accuracy.

Then I had my 6.5 Gibbs built and it turned out to be quite a tack driver. I have a tremendous amount of confidence in this rifle. It feels like a laser death ray in my hands! As a result, much of the nervousness associated with settling the crosshairs on my quarry no longer exists, and I think that has the greatest effect on field marksmanship.

JMHO,
Canuck

04 December 2001, 10:01

<allen day>

From what you hear about accuracy expectations these days, a lot of guys seem to have big game hunting confused with sage rat hunting, or else the primary quarry is statistics instead of trophy animals. If anything, "benchrest accuracy" is sort of an overrated, semi-sacred preoccupation that has gotten a little out of hand in recent years.

Actually, if a solid, well-built hunting rifle will keep five shots inside a one-inch circle at 100 yards and maintain a consistent point-of-impact (something that's more important than group size), I'll take it hunting anywhere in the world for big game.

04 December 2001, 11:20

Mike375

Allen,

If a rifle would put 5 shots in an inch and including a shot from a clean barrel and a shot from a barrel with cold hard fouling and also do it with the shots spaced over a week, then that would be real top grade accuracy.

Mike

[This message has been edited by Mike375 (edited 12-04-2001).]

04 December 2001, 11:39

beemanbeme

well said, allen day.

04 December 2001, 11:56

Crosshairs

Hummmm.... interesting question.

I think you are right. If you can hit a pie plate EVERY TIME with your rifle it is probably a good indicator of "accurate enough" for deer size game. It's probably a good method to access your maximum range too. The "every time" is key in that sentence. The probability of a wounded animal goes up significantly if you miss, even once, out of ten shots.

I'd not personally have trouble hunting with a rifle that was only capable of that accuracy but as Saeed noted... it's probably NOT the rifle that is the weak link.

04 December 2001, 15:38

JohnTheGreek

The 40x shoots quarter minute with regularity and that has been enough for anything between zebra and pronghorn

More practically, my .416 shoots about a minute of angle and I really want nothing less.

Regards,

JohnTheGreek

04 December 2001, 16:13

Longbob

Rifle accuracy is generally 1/3 the rifle, 1/3 the ammo, and 1/3 the shooter. And if you believe in the sage advice of Yogi Berra it is also 1/3 the scope. The right combination of rifle, ammo, and scope will help make the rifle more forgiving. Spend the time getting it right along with PLENTY of practice and I promise you won't be disappointed with it's accuracy.

05 December 2001, 03:40

Tombo21

Im my humble experience I have found the rifle will outshoot the "trigger puller" 99% of the time. As I'm no "crack shot" I will defer to the people who are. But I've done alot of hunting and that is my observation.

05 December 2001, 04:36

<Ol' Sarge>

Rogo TOMBO21,

Couldn't agree with you more.

Consider this.

If ya got a 5 MOA gun and a 5 MOA shooter, wouldn't ya now have a 25 MOA shot?

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Say what you mean, and mean what you say.

05 December 2001, 07:42

John Frazer

quote:
Originally posted by Ol' Sarge:

If ya got a 5 MOA gun and a 5 MOA shooter, wouldn't ya now have a 25 MOA shot?

Exactly, which contradicts the idea that gun accuracy isn't that important. By the same math, if you have a 5 MOA shooter and a 1 MOA rifle, you would have a 5 MOA shot.

In other words, mechanical accuracy matters, even if the shooter isn't up to snuff. The question is whether it matters enough to ... matter. IMO that depends on the size of the game. If a deer has an 8" vital zone, then theoretically if you have a 2 MOA rifle, and a shooter who can shoot into 4 MOA with a 1 MOA rifle, the shooter can hit the deer in the vitals at 100 yards. Give the same guy a 3 MOA rifle and his odds drop.

John

05 December 2001, 10:17

Sheister

You guys are all touching on the same thing, and basically I think everybody here has it right, sort of.

The biggest question in this whole equation is the shooter, as Saeed said. How does a 5 MOA shooter even tell if he has a 1 MOA rifle?

We have had several Postal Matches at 24hourcampfire just to test this theory and have a little fun. Each time the people volunteering to score have decided the course of fire, but it usually replicates some kind of hunting situation. A bit of each discipline is usually involved, sitting, offhand, standing with a rest and kneeling, etc... Also, we shoot different shots at different ranges, sometimes with time limit.
These friendly little shooting matches have really opened some eyes, including mine when I scored the last match we had. Shooting at pie plates for targets during this particular match was much more difficult than most guys realized ahead of time. IMHO, I think this size target is just about right to test your skills, since it represents about the logical size of most "average" game animals' kill zones.
If you try some of these courses of fire, or make up your own, but try to duplicate hunting situations instead of doing everything from a nice comfortable bench, you will immediately change your definition of "hunting accuracy". - Sheister

05 December 2001, 10:26

<Ol' Sarge>

I tried this once;

I put up a 8" paper plate and shot it several hundred times over the course of 3 years. Used 4 different rifles and many different loads and many different field positions and ranges from 50 to 350 yards.

What I found out is that my .5 MOA from the bench turned into 5 MOA shots under field conditions.

I did hit it every time, but some shots were TOUGH!

Accurate rifle + accurate shooter = dead animal.

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Say what you mean, and mean what you say.

[This message has been edited by Ol' Sarge (edited 12-05-2001).]

05 December 2001, 17:15

POP

If she does not shoot MOA or less (with me behind the trigger) .....out she goes!

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"Certified Rifle Crank!"

06 December 2001, 09:46

sxr6

I have a neibough that shoots about 5" moa with his 94 Win .32S off the bags. Poor aah,, tell you what I'll put my money on him every time a whitetail goes by at 75yds with it's belly on the ground, if you know what I mean. Shooting skill off-hand & confidence is by far the most important factor!! That being said I like my auto's to shoot 1 1/2" minimun & my bolt guns 1" minimun, that gives ME confidence, I'm still working on off-hand skills.