Hello,
First to all who replied to my post about 30/06 bear loads, thanks a lot. The advice is appreciated.

Now a little more. My buddy is going to get a Lever action rifle, maybe in a 45/70 or a 444 caliber. I know nothing about how to handload either, does anybody have a good place to start with these cartridges? They would be used for bear.

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Safety & Ethics,Accuracy, Velocity, Energy
Joe M

The best bet would be with the .45-70. Lots of bullets and molds around for this one, as well as cheap cases.
Only go with flatpoints in a lever action. Getting a 350-400 gr bullet to 1800-2000 is no problem.
For reloading data, I would recommend the, Speer, Hodgdon and Lyman manuals. The Lyman is better, especialy when you want to cast your own bullets, but you should atleast have 2 sources of data just for comparison.
Use the data that is stated for modern lever action rifles, start low and work your way up slowly.
If you don't reload yet, you can get hot loads from Corbon or Buffalo Bore.

Hope you are hunting over bait. If you're stalking, your friend will be at a distinct disadvantage with a 100 yard gun. If all you need to do is plug a bear with it's head stuck into a bait barrel 25 yards away, then the .444 or 45-70 with any load, factory or otherwise, will do fine. Either will put a half-inch hole through the bears lungs and you'll find it fifty or seventy-five yards away. Some bear country can be awfully thick, so finding it, even that close, can be a challenge sometimes. That's why I'd prefer a faster, high-shock round -- more chance the bear will fall on the spot and won't get up.

I am at a lost as to why anyone would be at a disadvantage hunting bear with a 45-70, though many people are inpatient and dont know how to stalk. Black bears are not very tough animals generally, and many just piss and moan after being hit and dont run at all. My neighbor in Alaska and I hunt them both with 45-70s for along time he just used factory remington 405s, which even at 1250 were very effective.Other then that DaveC gave good advice.

typo (impatient)

Hello,
The logic here is not so much the cartridge, but my buddy wants a "fast handling" rifle, which is one of the strong points of lever guns. He is also thinking of taking an 8mm Mauser.

We both reload, but I was just hoping to get him some working data so he can avoid the expense of finding stuff that just flat "does not work" in these cartridges. Less expense of load development was the goal.

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Safety & Ethics,Accuracy, Velocity, Energy
Joe M

Joe:

I think "fast handling" is a misconception in game rifles. The time when you need the fastest handling rifle is on the first shot, meaning the rifle with which you can acquire the target the quickest and make the most accurate first shot at game which may be fleeing or about to flee. This means a rifle which has a stock that fits the shooter well and a properly mounted scope sight with an adequate field of view. Scopes, which focus in a single plane, are much faster than open sights, both for the all-important first shot and for follow-up shots.

Also, a bolt with a sliding safety is usually quicker to fire (with a cartridge already chambered) than a lever with a hammer that must be cocked.

A lever gun will probably be about 10% faster than a bolt gun to empty the four rounds in the magazine, provided the shots are un-aimed. If the shots are properly aimed, the difference in the follow-up speed of a lever and a bolt is insignificant, and the follow-up shots with a scoped bolt will come closer to hitting the target than follow-up shots with an open-sight lever.

I'm not prejudiced against levers. They just have some practical limitations, including accuracy and range, that bolts don't have.

But before someone challenges that statement, I consider the Winchester 88 and the Sako Finnwolf with their one-piece stocks and rotating bolt heads to be essentially lever-operated bolt actions. My comments on levers applies to the Henry-Winchester-Marlin lineage; great guns which have taken untold heads of game, but which are limited to shorter-range hunting and cartridges generating no more than about 40,000 c.u.p.

Joe,

There is a thread in the reloading forum on 45-70 loads that should help get you going. I think the 45-70 lever is a great bear package. I would respectfully disagree with just about all of Stonecreeks statements on hunting with leveractions. I think a williams or "peep" type of sight is very fast for game acquisition, some poeple who shoot a lot with scopes and none with open sights might take some practice to get used to it. But I think by the time you've shot it enough to develope the load, and "learn" the trajectory, then you've gotten good at sight picturing on targets.

Just remember the Marlin does have cartridge length limits, it could be a problem if you want to shoot bullets heavier than 400 grs. If you're handloading to 40,000 cup, the 45-70 is QUITE capable to 200yds. Just look at the ballistics of the load, not too shabby.

If I wanted a really "fast" rifle, I would get the winchester 1886 (I did), and have it bobbed to say, 20-22 inches(I didn't). That way I wouldn't have to worry about loading length limits in the Marlin. The Marlin is a good package, very accurate, and the Guide package is very popular, but I like to load heavy bullets 450-500 grs. Not able to do that in the Marlin.

Just my opinion.