There are regulations on minimim energies but not on maximum engeries.

There seems to be some topics here that say that a small caliber is just fine as long as it pentetrates.

In his site Harald said that if a bullet hits a vial area then some minimum cavity is necessary for a blood pressure drop. This site did not say that a tiny caliber would take the game cleanly. It said that a larger cavity was necessary for larger and or tougher animals.

In the real world we don't always shoot as well as we should, the game doesn't always react as expected, and sometimes, game must be tracked and finished off. In those situations, the added terminal performance of a larger would channel, produced by a larger, not faster, bullet, is a real benefit.

Yes, bigger guns produce more recoil, so the shooter does have to become competent with his or her rifle, whether it be small or big.

Now when you compare the very small against the very large, then there is no question. Will a 22-250 do as much damage as a 458? No way, even if the 458 is launched 2000 fps slower. There the wound channels would be very different because the 22 is not even capable of the 458 wound channel.

Third, the construction of the bullet has as much to do with adequacy as does the caliber. I personally would take a 243 100 grain partition over the 308 110 grain varmint bullet when hunting...well anything. If I take my examples above, I would still take the 140 grain 264 partition over the 150 grain sierra just because of construction and if the bullet types were reversed, so would I. Now, if we go to very tough animals such as Cape Buffalo, wound channel discussions ALMOST go away because the bullets are almost always solids and above 338 caliber.

In conclusion, I don't think the mere fact of caliber being bigger or velocity being higher makes a bullet or round better. In the real modern world (Bell shooting elephants with a 7x57 not counted) there are too many very large animals killed very cleanly with "smaller" calibers to say the 308 and larger are always better.

But everyone has their prejudices. That is what good discussions are made of. If we all agreed, we might all be shooting 30-06s.

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Larry

To me, a minimum caliber is the least caliber that will work efficiently on the animal hunted under controled condition, that meaning under average conditions...

An example is that I feel the 9.3x62 and 375 H&H are perfectly capable under 99% of the hunting condition for Buffalo or Elephant in my hands, and yes even in a charge situation. HOWEVER, neither would be my first choice, preferring a 40 cal. of some sort.

Under ideal conditions, and this is controled by the hunter, the 338, 300, 30-06, 308 and 7x57 will surfice for Buffalo providing you pick your shot at very close range, place your bullet exactly and hopefully have the common since to notice which tree is the best for a quick exit.

One might extend this to elephant with solids, as a brain shot is a brain shot and regardless of caliber a miss is a miss on elephant and I have never been of the school the biggies knock them unconsious, I do not now, nor have I ever bought off on that theory unless the bullet actually touched inside the brain cavity. I have seen an elephant killed with shoulder shot by a 7x57 solid and that elephant bled like a stuck hog and died after about 150 yard run, about what one would expect with a 458 Lott or .470.

What do I recomend to clients, a 375 or larger, preferably larger if they can handle the recoil, but even smaller if they cannot. Good shooting is absolute.

I have noticed some ladies and youths normally kill Buffalo very cleanly with very minimal calibers (yes they are backed up with big bores)while I have seen many men get in trouble with a real big bores..

Just some ideas for thought and not trying to make or prove a point.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

quote:

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Originally posted by Paul H:
It depends if one bases there caliber selection only on armchair ideals, or on real world realities.

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Agreed.

A bigger caliber (no I am not advocating mortar size rifles) would drop the animal sooner and there would be less likely to wander off (given the fact that during hunting conditions our shooting is not always 100%).

Use your head and use a caliber appropriate to the game you are hunting and your own shooting abilities. just because you hear about some idiot shooting deer with a .22, doesn't mean that you need to try it.

I recommend that if you want to shoot small calibers at big game, that you start with dangerous game. This way either your shooting abiility improves dramatically or you are removed from the sport and we won't have to find your wounded animals rotting out in the woods.

Of the three that are hunted regularly, the only one requireing a real stopper is the Brown Bear, while the other two can be handled quite nicely with a 30-06 or there abouts. The 300 mags, no matter which one make good Elk rifles simply because the shots tend to be long on him. The moose can be taken with just about anything that is legal, but the old 30-06 is just about right for him as well. The brown bear,(and Polar) require some safety margin, for the stopping that may be needed. Here I place the bottom choice at the 338 win mag, and I would prefere a 375 H&H or larger if any alder, or rain forest are invloved. A full 90% of the people mauled, in Alaska, after they shot a Brown and did not stop him, were useing some sort of 300 magnum rifle.

Like Ray, I consider "BIG GAME" to start with an African lion, and top out at the African elephant. with the cape Buffalo being the most hunted, and in some cases the hardest to stop, simply because once wounded he can take a tremendous pounding to put down, and once he charges he will seldom be turned by your shot. This is a death sittuation, meaning he will die, or you will, but death is the outcome, it just depends on who wins. The bears hit hard will some times turn and run, as will an Elephant, takeing a hard hit anyplace in the head, he will usually call off the charge. The Buffalo will not, he will use his last breath to get to you! These animals take real rifles to hunt safely. There rifles start at 9.3, and go up the scale to the biggest thing you can shoot, and survive the recoil. The best compromise is, IMO, a 400 to 500 cal rifle that you can shoot well.

So, for REAL big game I think the bottom is a good 9.3 on up, for North America, a 338 win mag will handle anything here, I do not consider any deer, other than ELK, and Moose, to be big game, and anything from a 243 with a 100 gr bullet up will handle the deer fine.

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

quote:

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Originally posted by Alstro:
I am just curious. How many animals are lost from someone shoooting a rifle they can't handle. If a 30-06 is the most the average hunter can handle, then wouldn't the average hunter be better off with a 270 over a 300 Magnum. With all the hype about the super magnums, and once a year shooters, could that be one reason for wounded and lost animals?

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I must not be average, I find little difference between the recoil of a 30-06 and a 270. I can understand being afraid of some big bore like a 577 tyrannasaur but the .300 wm , .338 etc are not frightening. After all you are ( hopefully) not shooting 20 rounds into the animal.

I would suspect a lot LESS animals are lost due to wounds from larger caliber weapons than from wounds from pea shooters.

I agree that for North American Big game starts with Moose/Elk. I have shot/killed moose (and NEVER lost them) with my 30-06, and would not hesitate to do so again but prefer a bigger caliber , My father took lots of moose with his 270 but never picked it up again for moose after we got him a .300 WM (he still uses it for whitetail).

It's too bad the opposite is true of someone plinking a game animal with a weak bullet because then they get away with it. It's so because the animal runs off!

quote:

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Originally posted by BBBruce:
Agreed.

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Are you trying to be funny, BBBBruce? You don't know your butt from a hole in the ground about guns. Go back to miscellaneous and talk crap where you belong.

[This message has been edited by Pecos45 (edited 05-18-2002).]

Big bore or small bore, all shots have to be placed correctly, no ifs, ands, or buts about that....If you shoot an animal shallow then a 375 H&H argueably won't kill any better than a 06 or 308 IMHO....If you shoot them center, the results are the same.

I have culled Kudu cows with a 375 and a 308
and I'll be darned if I could tell any difference in how they died...I know the 375 is the more powerfull any way you cut it but I'm not sure the Kudu did...

I did detect a difference in the two while observing the culling of Buffalo, at least I think I did..

What I have come to believe is there is not as much difference in most of our calibers as we believe there is, or at least that is my thoughts today, they may change tomarrow simply because its just not that cut and dried. I have bounced back and fourth many times in my opinnion of this over the years.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

you are correct, the caracasses are probably more bad shooting than too small a gun. I suspect though that you have a larger margin of error when you use a bigger caliber.

Unfortunately my Big game experience is restricted to North America. I prefer that the animal get knocked down and die quickly rather than wander off, requiring trailing to find it. (or worse have it wander out into a swamp)

[This message has been edited by rockhead (edited 05-20-2002).]

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Good Shooting!

BTW, lots of laws and regs are sponsored by people whose agenda has nothing to do with hunting or effective killing of animals. In fact, IMHO, many of those people suffer from CRI (cranial/rectal inversion.

[This message has been edited by 8MM OR MORE (edited 05-20-2002).]

First do most agree that the hit with say a orindary 6.5 mm would be fatal? If you agree that it would then you cannot argue against that a larger bullet at a similar velocity would do more damage! Do we agree so far? If we do then do we agree that the trailing of the animal in terms of distance due to blood loss and a easier to follow blood trail are all in favor of the larger bullet?

That is the crux of the matter. It's the safety factor. The money in the bank. The back up.

Like the famous author said "use enough gun"

First,with as much as I don't like to use this word,unethical to make a shot like that.And no,it doesn't happen by "accident".

Yup,I shot a buck in the ass like that once,and it was my own damn fault-I got in a hurry,and didn't take the time to try to tell if I was looking at the top of the bucks shoulders or his butt.

Keep a cool head,place your shots where they are supposed to go (in front of the diaphraghm),and don't take "hail mary" shots,and any reasonable caliber will do the job.

If you decide you don't want to pass up shots on game due to bad shot angles,by all means pack the biggest gun you can shoot adequetly.

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I'm out to wrong rights,depress the opressed,and generaly make an ass of myself!

There may, in fact, be some difference but myh question I guess is: is it decernable.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

So the experienced hunter with a 6.5x55 that is used daily in his own country may do a better job with his own rifle loaded with 156gr Oryx or Swift than someone with a 338WM taken out once a year. He might also come unstuck due to local conditions he was unaware of eg boundary crossing, other hunters, range considerations, dangerous game etc etc.

The perfect world is another identical rifle in form and function in a bigger calibre that is at the high end of acceptable in his own country with a similar trajectory which can be used regularly in his own country and about which there is no argument in the host country - enter the 9.3x62 with 232gr Oryx

If I was invited to the US for elk I would dearly love to use my 6.5x55 - I'm certain I could make it work but I'm also certain that the locals have good reasons for not favouring it and even more certain that out hunting is not a place to try and prove something.

[This message has been edited by 1894 (edited 05-20-2002).]

I let a shot go from offhand and it looked good. Maybe a tiny bit high but on. The rifle was a 7mm Rem Mag so the recoil took me off of the target and when I looked I saw nothing.

Don - do you not think you might have part answered your question?

The local gun nuts use the magnum calibers, the 300 and 7 mag being the most popular...

I'd say the 270 and 30-06 account for 50% or more of the elk shot in Idaho...just a guess.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I never had the ability to keep my shooting eye open after a shot. I can call a shot however but not long enough to see the bullet hit. I never even thought someone could see a bullet hit until a friend mentioned it when he said that he could see it hit from his standard weight .270 but not his light .358 Win. Now he is much bigger than normal at 6'3" and I am average size at 6' 185 lbs. I think it's our respective nervous systems however.

But that's not what I ment when I said the deer was gone! It was walking at the limits of visibility and had reached a apex of distance to me also. So by good fortune I saw it in a opening as it was passing. I called the shot on but maybe a center hit in the ribs. Maybe the shot hit a twig or went high. The downward angle was about as steep as earth can get with out falling off of the rocks.

It seems that with the deer coming back to me that the shot did go high and also there could be a echo with that land shape. I did not mention it but a similar thing happened within 50 yards of the same spot years ago.

The rifle was a Ruger #1A in 7mm Rem Mag loaded with the 140 Sierra and a modest load. I would try to find the load but it was no more than what a .270 puts out. The rifle weighs 8 lbs with it's scope. So the recoil is about average.

But I would not bet a million dollars on calling a shot with a #1. It has a slow lock time like the Mausers, MS's and many other rifles. They are no 700 Remington for sure.

I hope I have explained to you that I called the shot before recoil took me off of the target.

I once hit a Georgia whitetail on the left rear hip from a broadside shot with a .30-06. I hit a small one inch sapling about 15 feet in front of the deer which I believe threw off my shot. It left a nice blood trail with a few bone chips for about 100 feet, then nothing. Most people aren't saying a .30 caliber bullet is too small for Georgia whitetails but I still lost that deer. Found it a week later over 1/2 mile from where the blood trail ended.

Bullet placement is everything. If you can't hit where you aim bullet size will make very little difference. A .22 to the head is more deadly/quicker than a .50 bmg to the hip! Not that I condone that type of shot but you get the idea.

The bottom line is that any caliber is a deer gun if one modifies his hunting style to match his caliber...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

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Andy Cooper

quote:

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Originally posted by leo:
DUGABOY, I think you should add the caribou and inland grizzily to the list of bonafide big game. Caribou may be a bit soft but the size is there.

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Yor right of course, but if you think about it the caribou is about the same as the Elk as far as bullet selection goes, and the inland grizzily is the same animal as the coastal brown bear, the Brown just being the bigist Grizzily. Alaska lists the two bears as the same animal. The Brown Bear is generally declared to be any grizzly from the coast to 50 miles inland, and the Inland grizzly from 50 mile from the coast inland, but both the same bear. The costal just gets a lot of protene rich salmon, while the inland grizzly has to work very hard to make a liveing on the tundra. I do find the inland grizzly, though smaller, are more aggressive than the browns as a rule.

I hunt caribou with a 375 H&H, because where I hunt there is a large population of very large BROWN BEARS! The Grizzily (BROWN BEAR), and the polar are the only really dangerous game animals in North America, and do require some killing, on occasion!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

quote:

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Originally posted by Don Martin29:
1894,

But I would not bet a million dollars on calling a shot with a #1. It has a slow lock time like the Mausers, MS's and many other rifles. They are no 700 Remington for sure.

---

Thank God!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

quote:

---

Originally posted by Don Martin29:

I never had the ability to keep my shooting eye open after a shot...

---

I can see you are a new member. Welcome to the forum, young feller

I never had that ability either until I learned to shoot handguns. I started by putting a piece of Scotch tape on the lens of my non-shooting eye. After a few practice sessions, my brain ignored the extra rear sight and target, even with the tape off.

Anyhow, I don't think many deer carcasses and skeletons you find in the woods are due to people using under-powered guns. In most cases, I think it was either bad shooting or (something I haven't seen mentioned on this thread) lazy hunting. If we could talk to the man who has all the answers, I would bet he'd say 90% of those deer didn't run 200 yards before they fell down and died. I think a lot of guys don't know enough or aren't motivated enough to do a decent job of tracking after they take the shot.

H. C.

[This message has been edited by HenryC470 (edited 05-23-2002).]

Some times forums like this one are to blame for this phenominon. You will always have a group on every one of these things that wants to brag about their 800 yds shots, with their Shortened, fattened, necked down to 13 caliber from a Browning 50 cal, shot out of a whiss bang push feed shooter, that will for sure get 18000 fps with a 23 gr bullet, that will shoot absolutely flat for a quarter mile, then start to rise!

This does no harm to the veteren hunter,he can seperate the Bull shit from the real thing, but their are a lot of kids who read these posts, and the BS that is dumped on them only gives them a license to try the 800 yd shots on live animals, as long as they can buy those numbers they hear on the net.

I have personally found deer, and Elk the next day after I saw somebody shoot at them from 600 yds away across canyons, and never go to the spot where the animal was standing. On one occasion I saw hair fly off an elk's belly side,on my side of the canyon, and the shooter looked with his binoculars for a few minutes, and went on his merry way. They didn't go because they gut shot the animal, and it didn't act like it had been hit. They gut shot the animal because they were shooting too far. This is the reason I call these guys shooters, and not hunters. A "HUNTER" first off, will not shoot farther than is necessary, and will always go to check for evidence of a hit, a shooter is only interested in his rifle, and to hell with the animal. So they go on their way, and probably shoot two or three more the same way, still going home empty. Too many blame the rifle,for this, when it is the rifleman that is guilty!

Gentelmen, we owe the animals, we hunt, the courtesy of makeing clean kills, with as little pain to the animal as is possible. Additionally, we at least owe them a follow up after we shoot! The rifles you use are right if they are legal, but legal doesn't absolve you of your responsibility, to place your bullet right, and to finish the job you start. Just my $.02

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

Again, sectional density is not everything, but with all else being relatively equal, I will take it over 44 thousanths of an inch in diameter. If you make that 308 bullet a 180 grain then the answer could be different.

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Larry

By the way, I once had a mule deer buck do a fast 180 turn on me just as I fired. I was hunting with my 30/06 and for some bizarre reason 205 gr bullet. (Hornady I believe) The bullet hit the deer in the rump, totally penetrated the deer, chopped thru four ribs on the opposite side on it's way out and then blew off the opposite leg!
It wasn't pretty and I wasn't pleased but took the guy home anyway. Actually cleaned up better than expected.

Not trying to rain on your post here, just saying we need to compare apples to apples.