Famous Hunters (?)

25 April 2003, 05:53

Nickudu

Famous Hunters (?)

That's the title of the photo. What do you think?

"Famous Hunters" at Hot Springs, Montana 1883
1 unidentified, 2 Wyatt Earp, 3 Teddy Roosevelt, 4 Doc Holiday (John Henry) 5. Morgan Earp 6. Liver Eating Johnson, 7. Butch Cassidy (George Parker) 9. Sundance Kid (Harry Langebaugh?) 10. Bat Masterson, 11.unidentified, 12. Harry Brittan, 13. unidentified, 12. Judge Roy Bean 13. Ben Greenough Hot Springs, Montana

[ 04-24-2003, 21:12: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

25 April 2003, 06:36

Aspen Hill Adventures

Uh, WOW! If they are the real thing.

25 April 2003, 10:41

JohnTheGreek

I have seen this photo before and it is a great one.

JohnTheGreek

25 April 2003, 10:48

John Frazer

I think it's not real -- Roosevelt looks way too heavy, he was still fairly slim and only in his 20s then.

25 April 2003, 13:03

Nickudu

Reposted below for ease of comparison.

[ 04-26-2003, 22:11: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

25 April 2003, 14:13

NitroX

So Sunders Hot Springs must have been the in-place to hunt in those days (?)

If the photo is real, imagine what a 19th Century conspiratory theorist could have made of it then.

Sure this photo hasn't been constructed digitally?

25 April 2003, 14:29

Gatehouse

Who would name their kid "Liver Eating?" [Big Grin]

25 April 2003, 17:06

waksupi

Liver Eatin' johnson got the name on pure merit.

I live just north of Hot Springs, Montana, and have never seen the picture exhibited there. I have to wonder about the authenticity and id of the people.

26 April 2003, 15:33

John Frazer

quote:
Originally posted by Nickudu:
John Fraser, I thought the same thing but maybe we are looking at the wrong individual?? [/IMG]

I'm just following the key pencilled on the photo -- which shows TR as the portly fellow in the bowler. It could've been TR but maybe 20 years later...

26 April 2003, 22:45

Nickudu

John, Yes, we agree ... I thought the same thing but maybe the photo is deceiving, being seated and somewhat closer (?) Wish I had one or two others in the photo I was more familiar with. I still think that's Butch Cassidy, for sure, which makes me think the photo is the real McCoy.

27 April 2003, 02:26

Dr. Duc

I thought The Liver Eater was in Arizona in 1883 working as a Marshall. I doesn't preclude him being in Montana too but he was on hard times by then. It too think the photo of Teddy is later and added.He would have been 25 in 1883. He married and entered law school in 1880 and was elected to the New York Assembly in 1881. His wife died in 1884 and political reverses caused him to seek solace in the west. He wasn't in Montana in 1883 as far as I can tell with spur of the moment research.
Virgil Earp was in California in 1883 and still suffering badly from his wounds at the Oriental Saloon in November 1881.
Doc Holiday was dead from TB less than 2 yrs later at a sanitarium in Colorado.
Butch Cassiday would have been 17 yrs old in 1883.
I'm open to correction.
I think it's an interesting creation.

[ 04-26-2003, 17:35: Message edited by: Dr. Duc ]

27 April 2003, 04:05

Nickudu

Dr. Duc,
Go back and bone up on the subject before commenting, please. [Wink]

Wow! I'm impressed!

So, you feel it a fabrication of some kind?
I accept your educated opinion. Thanks!

Tell us more about Liver Eater, please.

[ 04-26-2003, 19:07: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

27 April 2003, 04:32

Hobie

Jeremiah Johnson, aka "Crow Killer", aka "Liver Eatin'", aka John Johnson was a pure pilgrim when came west (went west) to do like a lot of people and escape people. Get the book "Crow Killer" at the library, it's a good read. You can see the movie "Jeremiah Johnson" with Robert Redford but some skewing of the facts has been done in that. No doubt the intent is to protect the sensitivities of the ladies who came to oooh and aaaah over Mr. Redford. Anyway, "Crow Killer" doesn't refer to the bird, and "Liver Eatin'" was, as somebody else noted, every bit on merit. However, I've heard that he was, in many ways, a truly decent person.

Another interesting "fact" is that he started with a .36 caliber percussion rifle as his only firearm. Now, for any of us that have used a .36, that is a truly amazing thing and his accomplishments are all that much more amazing.

[ 04-26-2003, 20:13: Message edited by: Hobie ]

27 April 2003, 04:59

Nickudu

I hadn't made the "Johnson" connection.
Thanks Hobie!

27 April 2003, 05:20

Hobie

Nickudu,

You're certainly welcome for whatever I might have done for you.

The old photos are fascinating but this seems a fabrication in that the names were added to a photo of regular joes by somebody, probably quite a while back, for a reason that will completely escape us today. Nobody looks like anybody I've seen photos of except that they have mustaches and are in the clothing of the period.

As to Johnson, it seems to me that he lived to 1888 or so and was an old man having been in his 30's in 1848 and '49, but heck I am not at all certain of this and don't have the book here at work to refer to. I did do a search after writing the above but have been disappointed with the results.

I find this stuff fascinating...

27 April 2003, 06:49

Nickudu

I just dug up nearly all of the pictures and I am of the opinion that this is a valid photo. I say this primarily because there are all too many strong likenesses to be seen, despite possible time of life variation from these other photos to this. Just going on instinct, you hear.

27 April 2003, 07:08

Nickudu

Butch Cassidy

Bat Masterson

Doc Holiday

Judge Roy Bean

Morgan Earp

Liver Eatinï¿½ Johson

Sundance Kid

Wyatt Earp

27 April 2003, 07:10

Nickudu

27 April 2003, 11:28

RMK

The picture is bullshit nick. Go to www.hunterhotsprings.com.

The sundance kid,would have been around 16 years old in 1883. He didn't even make it to montana till 1887. Documents have him and his family in colorado in 1883,clear to late 1886.

Butch cassidy would have been have been 17,and he never left utah until 1884 and then went to colorado not montana.

Morgan earp died in 1882. Maybe its his ghost in the picture.

Roosevelt was establishing two ranches in N. Dakota during 1883 to 1884.

27 April 2003, 12:56

Nickudu

Thanks RMK,
Can't get that link to work ...

Well, if it's a phoney, my hat's off to 'em! [Smile]

27 April 2003, 13:56

cas

Liver eating Johnson was supposed to be 6'2"to 6'6" or so.. (I'm too lazy to go get the book.) That guy at #6 is too short, and is barely taller than the guy next to him, who's on a lower step!

27 April 2003, 14:21

RMK

The picture isn't a fake,the problem is the people in it aren't the ones that are listed. The majority of the people in the picture have been identified as locals from hotsprings. According to the site,the names written on the picture were added in the late 1960's. The site is worth visiting. The reason you can't get the link,is because I typed it wrong. It's www.huntershotsprings.com

[ 04-27-2003, 05:23: Message edited by: RMK ]

27 April 2003, 15:22

Gatehouse

So the Movie "Jerimiah Johnson" was about "Liver Eating" Johnson?

Anybody feel free to tell more about him...

Was eating liver frowned upon back then? Or did he eat human liver, or what?

I'm familiar withthe rest of the guys, but not Johnson. I assume he killed a number of Crow Indians.

27 April 2003, 16:08

Hobie

quote:
Originally posted by Gatehouse:
So the Movie "Jerimiah Johnson" was about "Liver Eating" Johnson?

Anybody feel free to tell more about him...

Was eating liver frowned upon back then? Or did he eat human liver, or what?

I'm familiar withthe rest of the guys, but not Johnson. I assume he killed a number of Crow Indians.

Yep. He ate the livers of his enemies and he killed every Crow he met. Their young men would attempt to make a name for themselves by killing him. He lived to a pretty good age if I remember correctly. Even back then, though he could get away with killing Indians (even the "friendly" ones) eating human liver was looked on with a bit more than disgust. However, to a friend he was a friend and a man of his word to all. (How's that for smaltz?)

27 April 2003, 16:21

RIP

Fabulous casting fakery on a genuine old photo, eh?

Yep, Liver Eatin' Johnson/Crow Killer ate the livers of the Crow Indians he killed. Apparently the Crows finally got tired of harrassing him, and maybe his liver eatin' helped put the spook on them, or maybe Johnson was just hungry.

Was it true that Johnson was just defending himself in this feud started by a Crow raiding party killing his loved ones? Grub could get scarce in the wintertime in yonder Montana mountains.

I've got the book, _Crow Killer_, but haven't gotten around to reading it yet. It does seem that some of the movie, _Jeremiah Johnson_, was based in fact.

I would love to hear from anyone who has read the true accounts, as to how the movie differed, besides not showing Robert Redford eating human liver.

[ 04-27-2003, 07:24: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

28 April 2003, 06:16

Mickey1

Jerimiah Johnson is buried in Cody Wyoming. He died, I believe, in a retirement Home in Southern California. The owner of the 'Western Town' on the West End of Cody found the grave and moved it to the tourist attraction. They actulally got Robert Redford to attend the reburial. I think there is another famous body there also, Black Bart?

I am doing this from memory but surely some of you have been there when in Cody and visiting the Winchester Museum

28 April 2003, 18:40

Dr. Duc

Liver Eatin' Johnson's life is indeed chronicled in "Crow Killer". As I remember it was published in the 1960's(University of Texas Press?) and I read it in 1971. My copy has disappeared.
John Johnson was from a good family and went west as a complete greenhorn. He survived because he was like Selous, Bell and others . He listened and learned. His feud with the Crows came about in a similar fashion to that depicted in the film. He was so respected that a band of special warriors was sworn to kill him before anything else. As I remember there were 19 he killed. When he killed one he would take a bite of the bloody liver to show his contempt. He didn't eat the heart because they didn't deserve that honor. After killing one Crow with Del Gue he cut out the liver and started to take a bite. Del Gue reportely said "If you eat that I'm gonna gag". Johnson replied "Then gag Damn Ya".
He eventually got over his feud and actually went on raids with the Crow. Once after killing a Sioux,the Crow expected him to eat the liver. His response was "Sioux liver ain't worth eatin' ".
As an old man he worked as a Marshal in an Arizona town. He broke up a cowboy fight by banging the heads together of the two combatants-killed them both. He was 75 yrs old at the time.
As I remember he died in a Veterans hospital (but maybe it was eventual burial in National Cemetary). In any case his body was indeed moved as a result of the efforts of a 12yr old girl who saw the movie and read the book. She thought he deserved to rest in the mountains.
Morgan Earp did indeed die in March of 1882. Wyatt was busy chasing the killers in 1883 along with Doc Holiday and others. He was also moving his family to California at that time.(He was technical advisor on the first version of "Gunfight at the OK Corral". Also knew Tom Mix and gave him some pointers. The 1939 version "My Darling Clemintine" also had some of his influence because the director had known him in the 1920's.
I think Teddy Roosevelt would have been awful busy in 1883 with his political career in New York to have been in Montana but I don't have his new bio here at the moment.
Judge Roy Bean was so fixed on Lily that he never went anywhere.
Again I'm open to correction cause most of this is memory except the the Earp data.

29 April 2003, 09:57

RIP

Many tanks, Dr. Duc. I'll read the book now.

Cheers, whistles, clapping, standing ovation, foot stomping, cigarette lighter lit, yeehas, etc. ...

28 April 2003, 23:02

Marterius

Thanks everyone, wonderful reading. All the mythical names and all the wild west romantics from the films and books of my youth. I did not even know that all of these people really have existed. And for you folks, it is the history of your country and some of your great grandfathers was around... I love this forum! [Smile]

29 April 2003, 11:08

<phurley>

I have a copy of the book about "Liver eating Johnson". I don't remember off hand the title, but I do remember he was buried in the Los Angles graveyard. He also served as Sheriff of Deadwood South Dakota for a short time after he and the Crows called off the feud. The crows buried the "Mad Women", who had seen her family slaughtered by Native Americans. Johnson had befriended the "Mad Women", and left her food occasionaly. After her death the Crows gave her a proper burial, thus gaining the respect of Johnson once again. He then met with them and declared the feud over, and they were friends from then on. [Wink]

Good shooting.