Re: More on the Wisconsin shooting

27 November 2004, 16:14

Fish30114

Lawdog, I think that's probably the deal. I have a few friends who are cops, and they think one of the biggest issues we have is that crooks are not really scared of what will happen to them. Blue spoke of a highly structured prison environment where we might rehabilitate prisoners. I don't know much about that, but I know if people thought there was no chance that they wouldn't get put to death, for killing someone or committing some heinous crime, it would be a deterrent.

27 November 2004, 18:05

GSP7

I would attend Vangs public hanging,, in my best go-to-meetin cloths. Might go out and by a tie and wear that too.

28 November 2004, 05:31

LE270

Quote:

...the case of innocent people being wrongly accused. Should the innocent suffer your prescribed consequences because the accuser could afford a better attorney and all the accused got was court prescribed? How many innocent people go to jail because of wrongful convictions?

It's true that innocent people should not be wrongly accused or convicted or punished.

But this is not a problem unique to American jurisprudence -- it is a worldwide problem. In fact, I think if you were to look carefully at this problem worldwide, you'd find that, as a percentage of all criminal cases in those countries, the problem is more prevalent in Latin America, the Middle East, Africa, and Asia than it is in the US. In addition, America rarely has what could be accurately called "political prisoners," but such cases occur in large numbers elsewhere in the world.

Also, as to your point about America's failures with multiculturalism and racial profiling: It is true that there are many cases of abuse and failure in the US on these issues. But, then again, one needs to remember in connection with this that America has always been a country of immigrants, with successive waves of different peoples -- different languages, customs, races, religions, etc. -- coming to America. This is true of nowhere else in the world in the sense that America has taken in a larger number and larger complexity of diverse people than any other country. It's not surprising that, under those circumstances, racial, cultural, religious, and ethnic tensions and fights (including bloodshed) would sometimes break out in America. If you try to do a lot, it's not surprising that your failures will be greater and more prevalent and more obvious than the much smaller failures of those who don't try at all, or who try on a much smaller scale.

Consider, for example, the tensions now arising in Europe between new immigrants and the older "native people": the Somalis in Sweden, the West Indians and others in England, the Turks in Germany, the Indonesians in Holland, the North African and other Muslims in France and elsewhere, and so on -- those tensions and more are now washing over and consuming Europe in ways that were not the case in the past because the European countries were far more insular and closed, with few contacts with "outsiders."

Also, the notion of "nation" itself is different in the US than it is almost anywhere else. Elsewhere, "nation" means ethnic group -- as in "Cherokee Nation" or "Italian nation" or "Icelandic nation." In the US, the nation is not founded on a homogenous ethnic group or religious group at all, but on adherence to a Constitution, a constitution that makes no mention of ethnicity. (It did mention race originally, but, after the Civil War, that too has been eliminated.)

Try emigrating to any of the countries of Western Europe, the Middle East, or Asia and becoming a full citizen there, accepted as "one of them." It's nearly impossible. But it is the norm in America.

Does America have a problem with race? Yes. Is that problem in America more severe than elsewhere in the world? No -- it is less severe in America than almost anywhere else in the world because America has done more to overcome it than anywhere else.

28 November 2004, 01:28

GSP7

Toruk ,, You are full of crap.

If some one says "The sky is blue and beautiful"

You think they mean "I hate the ocean,its green and ugly"

You twist around what people say and add your own meanings with all your politicaly correct terminology B.S.

27 November 2004, 08:20

Paul B

Sorry Blue. My feeling is we give Vang a fair trial and then hang him.
I for one, am all for the three strikes law, but not as envisioned by most. Strike one, the judge has full authority to either impose probation of full term prison time, no early out for good behavior. Strike two the normal prison sentence is automatically doubled, no early out for good behavior. Strike three, mandatroy death penalty. If the bad guy hasn't learned from his first two convictions, then like a cancer found in one's body, he must be removed from the body of civilized people. It's damn well time we quit screwing around with all the bullshit on how poor vang, or Dahmer and hell, pick your own bad guy who kills. BTW, for premeditatedmurder of any kind, mandatory death, only one appeal. None of this second or first degree BS. You kill in the commision of a crime, regardless if you deliberately puller the trigger or the gun went off "accidently", you die. End of problem.
Blue. I hope will all my heart that you never become a victim of a criminal. It will change your whole outlook on crime and punishment. It certainly has changed my ways of thinking about how criminals should be treated. Frankly, if a member of my family were to be murdered, I would personally want to push the button that sends them straight to hell.
Paul B.

27 November 2004, 11:04

jimmyd223

blue, by your own words: . And I have been severely assaulted on two occasions. I didn't know who stole the money, but I did know who assaulted me. I did not report the assaults, and I forgave them.
All I can say is you ought to have your ass kicked again

assulted twice, knew whom did it to you and you forgave them, what the hell is wrong with you? Sounds like your mom dressed you in dresses

The only reason I can think of for not reporting the assault is that you were "bangin" some guys wife, then the ass kicking would be justified

27 November 2004, 11:42

Lawdog_Gary

Paul B,

Quote:

My feeling is we give Vang a fair trial and then hang him.

I couldn't agree more. Bring back public hangings so the next offender knows what is waiting for him/her. Up the 13 steps and a long drop on a short rope. Lawdog

27 November 2004, 23:35

Turok

Quote:

And ALL the violations of all this vietnameze, Homngs or what ever they are,have commited.

America venerates diversity in theory, and then denigrates it in practice. What you are proposing is racial profiling. Poaching and violations of the law have nothing to do with ï¿½raceï¿½ or culture. It has everything to do with being human. There are plenty of other ï¿½naturalï¿½ Americans that commit the same violations.

Quote:

Anglo liberals have been spouting that touchy, feely bullshit for 2000 years: "let's rehabilitate the poor misunderstood wretches". So far, it ain't never got off the drawing board.

ï¿½and for some reason the recititivism rates for the last 2000 years just donï¿½t support the hard line approach that you take.

Prisons are a breeding ground for criminals. They teach criminals to be criminals. They teach innocent people to be criminals. Blue is the only one to have touched on the case of innocent people being wrongly accused. Should the innocent suffer your prescribed consequences because the accuser could afford a better attorney and all the accused got was court prescribed? How many innocent people go to jail because of wrongful convictions? It would be nice to believe the justice system gets it right all the time, but that would be rather wishful thinking wouldnï¿½t it. Things just arenï¿½t as black and white ï¿½ no pun intended ï¿½ as it is laid out to be.

Pointing to the worst case scenario e.g. Hitler, Dahmer and the like, does little to prove a point. Itï¿½s as bad as saying ï¿½gun registry will prevent crimesï¿½. People that have the ability to commit such heinous crimes have little ability to comprehend what will happen to them if they get caught, except now you have the chance of enforcing such laws on innocent people.

Turok

28 November 2004, 05:31

LE270

Quote:

...the case of innocent people being wrongly accused. Should the innocent suffer your prescribed consequences because the accuser could afford a better attorney and all the accused got was court prescribed? How many innocent people go to jail because of wrongful convictions?

It's true that innocent people should not be wrongly accused or convicted or punished.

But this is not a problem unique to American jurisprudence -- it is a worldwide problem. In fact, I think if you were to look carefully at this problem worldwide, you'd find that, as a percentage of cases, the problem is more prevalent in Latin America, the Middle East, Africa, and Asia.

Also, as to your point about America's failures with multiculturalism and racial profiling. It is true that there are many cases of abuse and failure in the US on these issues. But, then again, America has always been a country of immigrants, with successive waves of different people -- different languages, customs, races, religions, etc. -- coming to America. This is true of nowhere else in the world in the sense that America has taken in a larger number and larger complexity of diverse people than any other country. It's not surprising that, under those circumstances, racial, cultural, religoius, and ethnic tensions would sometimes break out in America. If you try to do a lot, it's not surprising that your failures will be greater and more prevalent and more obvious than the failures of those who don't try or who try on a much smaller scale.

Consider, for example, the tensions now arising in Europe: the Somalis in Sweden, the West Indians and others in England, the Turks in Germany, the Indonesians in Holland, the North African and other Muslims in France and elsewhere, and so on -- those tensions and more sre now washing over Europe in ways that were not the case in the past because the European countries were far more insular and closed.

Also, the notion of "nation" itself is different in the US than it is almost anywhere else. Elsewhere, "nation" means ethnic group -- as in "Cherokee Nation" or "Italian nation" or "Icelandic nation." In the US, the natoin is not founded on a homogenous ethnic group at all, but on adherence to a Constitution, a constitution that makes no mention of ethnicity. (It did mention race originally, but, after the Civil War, that too has been eliminated.)

Try emigrating to any of the countries of Western Europe, the Middle East, or Asia and becoming a full citizen there, accepted as "one of them." It's nearly impossible. But it is the norm in America.

Does America have a problem with race? Yes. Is that problem in America more severe than elsewhere in the world? No -- it is less severe in America than almost anywhere else in the world because America has done more to overcome it than anywhere else.