Is the 30-06 an overglorified 30-40 Krag?

13 March 2002, 15:46

<500 AHR>

Since everyone seems to be into over analysis of cartridge cases. Personally I have always liked the old Krag actioned rifles and the 30-40 Krag round. It seems a shame that they had to bring out the 30-06 and push the good 'ol 30-40 Krag out of the spotlight.

The next natural question by the way would be: Is the 30-40 Krag an overglorified
45-70?

Todd E

15 March 2002, 13:32

500grains

Is the 45-70 just an overglorified 50 cal muzzle loader?

I am going to go back to using a spear.

;-)

15 March 2002, 14:03

p dog shooter

No more so then your 505 gibbs is a over grown 50 sharps. Or any newer one over any older one of the same caliber that gives more vel.
Every cal has its place and limits. You would not want to shoot your gibbs at super long ranges. I wouldn't want to use my 22 250 on really big game. But in between their are a lot of differant calibers that are really close to each other that work just fine for 98% of all hunting.

15 March 2002, 14:10

<T/Jazz>

Is a Pontiac GTO an over glorified Chevy?

Not in my eyes!

15 March 2002, 17:12

<500 AHR>

500grains,
Actually the 45-70 Government replaced the 58 caliber muzzle loadind Springfield. So a more accurate question would be. Isn't the 45-70 Government just an over glorified 58 caliber muzzle loader?

p dog shooter,
Actually I no longer own my Francotte 505 Gibbs. I sold it about 15 years ago. I now own a 500 AHR. The 505 Gibbs is though pretty much an over glorified 50-140 Sharps, or more accurately an over glorified 500NE. I make this statement based upon two things.

1.) The 505 Gibbs is loaded to original specs (525 grains @ 2300 fps).

2.) The 50-140 Sharps is loaded with modern smokeless powders with a 535 grain bullet. You will have no problem getting 2300 fps with this cartridge. It has a case capacity around 150 grains if I recall correctly.

T Jazz,
You are absolutely correct. A Pontiac GTO is not a glorified Chevy. It is a WANNABE CHEVY! Poncho no go fast.

If you load to the same pressure what advantage does the 30-06 really have over the 30-40 Krag? I mean really.

Todd E

[This message has been edited by Todd E (edited 03-15-2002).]

15 March 2002, 17:18

<T/Jazz>

Todd my father had one that had only been out run on the strip by Mickey Thompson and Farmer Arnie from Iowa. That Speed Goat turned 10.92 at Bristol Tenn. the last time it ran.....weren't NO CHEVIES with enough GO
Go Juice to outrun "The Green Machine" June 1967. Opps Sorry, guess I got carried away some guys.

16 March 2002, 02:20

500grains

My Krag won't feed spitzers - round nose only.

My '06 feeds spitzers.

I shot a deer this fall at 400 yards with the '06. I would not have hit it with my krag. Nor with a spear.

16 March 2002, 02:48

<500 AHR>

500grains,
We are not alking about guns just cartridges. I agree the Springfield Krags are not too accurate.

TJazz,
10.92 isn't very quick even for 1967. We had a 327 powered nova that would run 10.40's back then. Guess you were lucky you did not run into us. Besides the east and south never had the fastest drag cars. I remember when Big Daddy went out west the first time. Lost to everybody. Also, fo ryour information a 67 Vette with a L88 and slicks will turn 10.70's bone stock. I KNOW YOUR DADDY'S PONCHO WASN'T STOCK! I have owned a few GTO's over the years they are ok but they are not fast or quick. They can beat up the small blocks, but when the rats and elephants come out to play the indian is best put away in the garage unless you like to lose. Oh don't believe the BS in the magazines either. If those Olds, Pontiacs, and Buicks were as bad as those magazines say we would be racing those engines instead of BBC and Hemis. The BBC and the Hemi are both much more expensive engines to manufacture than the old BOP engines too. So the ugly truth is that the BOP mills suck always have always will.

What did you Daddy do that poncho to make it go 10.92?

Todd E

16 March 2002, 04:56

tsturm

quote:
Originally posted by Todd E:
Since everyone seems to be into over analysis of cartridge cases. Personally I have always liked the old Krag actioned rifles and the 30-40 Krag round. It seems a shame that they had to bring out the 30-06 and push the good 'ol 30-40 Krag out of the spotlight.
The next natural question by the way would be: Is the 30-40 Krag an overglorified
45-70?
Todd E

Looks like your fishing for a Overglorified PISSING MATCH
Good luck fishing

16 March 2002, 06:10

<Don Martin29>

I had a Springfield Krag and it was very accurate. I paid $15 for it and the bore was perfect. There were a lot of efforts to sporterize Krags but it was not easy to do. The side magazine was the worst part. That was as slick an action as there ever was.

The 30-40 Krag holds 58 grains of water and the 30-06 Springfield 69 grains and the .308 Win. 56 grains. The Krag is a rimmed cartridge and the 30/06 a rimless. I hope this helps.

16 March 2002, 06:15

<ithaca_deerslayer>

Why don't we just eliminate the "names" of the cartrigdes and talk about the velocity we want of a certain caliber and weight bullet to come out of a certain size gun with a certain amount of recoil?

The factory specs on a specific cartridge I like says my rifle (ok, they don't specify my exact rifle, but anyway) will push a .30 caliber 165 grain bullet at 2800 fps.

I don't care what name you call that cartridge. That is what I want to shoot. It has a relatively flat trajectory that I like, it has a recoil that is not too much, and it kills what I shoot very nicely.

Call it a .30-40 Krag if you want. Call it a .300 Win Mag. Call it a .300 short mag. Call it a .308. Call it a .30 carbine. Call it whatever you want, as long it fits in my gun, shoots without blowing up the gun, and has those balistics, I don't care what you call it.

Any change I make from those balistics is a matter of give and take. Heavier bullet at the same velocity will have more recoil. Heavier bullet at less velocity won't have as flat a trajectory. And so on. We can make any change we want, out of nearly infinite possibilities. But at some point we have to pick something to use, and it will always be a compromise of the factors that are important to us.

16 March 2002, 17:24

Wstrnhuntr

No but the 308 is an overglorified 30-06..

16 March 2002, 17:56

<T/Jazz>

Hey Todd, the sickly old goat turned that time on its last run with two cracked cly. and a piston with a hole in it, yep caught on fire. It had turned in the LOW 10's.
Now I mean to tell you, I may not or ever will be the wrench turner that Pop is, but I just can't see that 67 vette with L88 heads turning in the 10 my boy. I new Kurt Wattson
"Mr.4Speed" who ran a big Vette back in those days with a Big Block & Blower and it only turned in the low 10's. So please don't try feeding me any more of your Chevie Pie.

Pops Goat had one of the few set of NASCAR Ponitac experimental heads on it from the days when the Pocho's ruled the oval track racing----other secrets I dare not speak of for fear of the Indian Prince paying me a visit in the night.

17 March 2002, 03:18

<Don Martin29>

These discussions denegrate into the least common demoninator too often. TJazz has gone to 1/4 mile acceleration numbers so low that the vehicle is not likely to be street legal.

On a sailing board a question of a suitable sailboat will be asked and the argument will narrow to offshore capable boats.

Here a question of why the 30/06 is the most popular will be asked and the 300 mangelem guys will present their choice as the best when in fact very few hunters carry them.

Just like the fact that the Rem 740's have outsold the M-70's we ignore what works for most and focus on some narrow choice.

17 March 2002, 09:03

RSY

No, but the .30-06 is really the 8x57mm AI (American Improved).

I think Ithaca Deerslayer nailed it here...to me a cartridge is nothing more than a wrapper for a bullet. Once that bullet leaves the case neck, it's just a bullet of a certain caliber traveling at a certain velocity. That's it, nothing more!

There are no accurate cartidges, just accurate rifles. Name any cartridge, then tell me why a rifle couldn't be built that would fire it well. Just because a cartridge has never benefited from a good rifle chambered for it in the past, does NOT mean it can't be done.

So, in summary, blame the rifle...not the cartridge.

RSY

17 March 2002, 13:22

<T/Jazz>

Don Martin 29...Hell NO It Wasn't Street Legal! Who in the world said anything about it being street legal?

I just wish (wasn't thought about yet guys) the the sam hill I could have been sixteen at the time to be able to take it down the track. All I have to look at is the pictures of yesteryear. Don Pappy says it turned 13.7 at the strip first time out the chute, how does that satisfy your fancy. It soon after was turned into a full blown race machine "The Green Machine"

17 March 2002, 15:51

Atkinson

Food for thought on this subject:

The old worn out 30-06 with the new enhanced ammo is the equal of the 300's...You just can't keep that old girl down...Still the best all around caliber in the world...

The old 30-40 was a grand caliber, but lets just say according to the loading manuals she was an over rated 30-30, and thats no slight praise, I love the 30-30.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

17 March 2002, 15:59

<JHook>

Interesting about how the 30/40 was such a "supposed" failure in War and yet had such a devoted following in the Elk woods.

Funny at how good solid hunting tactics, and limiting oneself to "real life ranges", can fill the freezer so. Then and now.

24 March 2002, 17:04

<500 AHR>

TJazz,

I had a 72 LeMans that was Street Legal and turned 9.90's in the quarter! Interesting story about your Father's car too bad he didn't have a few holes in his pistons too. If the Ponchos were as good as you believe them to be the racing circiuts would be using them!

I like GTO's don't get me wrong, but they are nothing more than street cruisers. They were never meant to be true race machines.

Back to the subject. So can I use a 30-40 Krag in place of a 308 Win or not?

Todd E

25 March 2002, 03:19

sxr6

ToddE some of your #s are a little out of wack there!! My bud had a vette with GMs limited LS7, which of course is a oversized L-88 with steel block instead of aluminum, but had all the rest of the L88 goodies, open heads, cam, manifold, dyno's 590hp w/headers thru the mufflers etc. He ran 11.87 on the strip with M & H racemasters! As far a stock some of those Ponts DID go, how about the Trans SDs, or any of the 60s big blocks with tires. & no they never really made those motors into funny engines but they were never designed to be one, just good street engines in their day, & that they were.

25 March 2002, 04:27

<500 AHR>

sxr6,

I assure you my numbers are not out of whack. A L88 is a cast iron block and aluminum heads. It uses a different cam shaft than a LS7 by the way. Compression was 12.5:1. M&H are cheaters not slicks! I was involved in a little comparison several years ago between the Cobra, L88, and several special order Camaros (COPO, Yenko, etc). The Vette with full blown Good Year Eagles ran a best 10.72 and a slowest of 10.88. It was the quickest car narrowly beating out the 427 side oiler Cobra, which was the lightest. There was a complete and extremely thorough tech performed on all these cares to insure they were stock with the only exception being the slicks and in some cases wheels.

By the way, the LS7 was NEVER sold to the general public. If you friend has one he is driving a stolen vehicle or he built the engine with over the counter parts he purchased from GM. Also, if your buddies not too good with a stick he can easily loose a 1 second. The automatics need to be "fixed" to handle that much torque and will slip away a second or two also. The Yenko Camaro will beat 11.87 and it is no were near the potency of a properly built LS7!

I am not a weekend warrior in this arena gentlemen. I have seen some very expensive cars that ran very slow. This was do to the ignorance or stupidity of the owners/builders. You must be careful to base judgments of performance on cars that were properly build and spec'd. The Pontiac V8 does not exist as a Big Block either. They are all the same block. These blocks like the Buick and Oldsmobile lack the structural integrity for maximum effort competition. Like I said they are nice street cruisers and that IS IT.

My LeMans was Chevy powered. 522 CID and 792 HP measured on dynamometer after break-in. Redline was 7600 rpm the engine was designed to spin a maximum of 8800rpm. If you really want to go there we can go through the parts list.

Todd E