Trophies entered in the book... "canned hunts"

02 February 2002, 02:12

Aquavit

Yep. I remember a few years ago where this wanker from California shot a state record by bow from his 1500 acre fenced enclosure. He raised this particular deer for something like 12 years and gave it every supplement known to man.

He then had the sack to write an article on how this particular deer was from among those that were already on his property before the fence went up - so his acquisition of some certified genetic stock was a waste of time. He went on to conclude that Even wild deer are able to attain monsterous proportions provided they live long enough.

NO SHIT!

02 February 2002, 02:21

<WyomingSwede>

Would agree... not real sporting...not what I would do. Maybe they can start their own record book for fenced in hunting.
It's kind of like kissin your sister ... no big deal. regards swede

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WyomingSwede

02 February 2002, 04:13

<heavy varmint>

I once knew a man who raised trophy class whitetail bucks and sold them to ranches. I think the ones who raise them should be able to enter them at the state fair while still on the hoof but see absolutely no reason to give any mention to the shooter that puts them down,.

02 February 2002, 04:25

Zero Drift

Rusty Gun - SCI is pretty good about staying on top of African game and canned hunts. But that does not necessarily stop folks from attempting to illegally enter heads. Over the past few years there has not been a lot of this, however during the late 80's and early 90's several hunters and PHs were busted for canned hunting. A few of these heads came from a well known hunting ranch in Texas. The desire to have your name in the book is so intense for some that canned hunting will continue to be a problem.

02 February 2002, 05:32

beemanbeme

I agree that it is certainly not fair chase but the question is how do you police it? An unscrupulous outfitter and a fame hungry sport are capable of most anything. They might no all be record book elk but a whole bunch of them are killed every year for sports that are interested in the "grip and grin" photos but not the hunt.

02 February 2002, 09:53

Mark G

Integrity = who you are when no one is looking.
How do some people sleep at night?

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Thanks, Mark G

"Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything." Genesis 9:3

[This message has been edited by Mark G (edited 02-02-2002).]

02 February 2002, 15:25

<leo>

I saw one elk(the only one I think) from Texas in the B&C book. It came from Denton county, a county that borders the north side of Tarrant and Dallas counties(DFW metro-area). I can't imagine any free roaming elk there in that highly developed area.

02 February 2002, 15:34

Washington Hunter

Here is a quote from an article written by Jim Zumbo:

Owners of penned elk never use the word ï¿½penï¿½ when they advertise. They refer to their operations as ï¿½game ranches,ï¿½ ï¿½elk ranchesï¿½ or ï¿½preserves.ï¿½ Invariably, their ads claim their ï¿½huntsï¿½ are 100-percent guaranteed, no license is required, and there is no season. Of course, hunters will only be interested when bullsï¿½ antlers are hard and shed of velvet, normally from September to March or so.

The ads may also proclaim the Boone and Crockett scores of the elk you can expect to shoot, proudly announcing the ï¿½trophiesï¿½ that await you. The shoots are not cheap, ranging from $5,000 to $30,000.

What the ads donï¿½t tell you is that game farm elk cannot qualify for the Boone and Crockett Club record book, because the enclosures violate one of the organizationï¿½s basic rules for fair chase. The club record book puts it this way:

ï¿½To make use of the following methods shall be deemed UNFAIR CHASE and unsportsmanlike, and any trophy obtained by use of such means is disqualified from entry:. . . Hunting game confined by artificial barriers, including escape-proof fencing, or hunting game transplanted solely for the purpose of commercial shooting.ï¿½

If anyone is interested in reading the entire article: www.macow.org/articles/zumbo1.htm

02 February 2002, 16:17

<bearguide>

Zero Drift- SCI allows the entry of book animals shot behind a fence. If they didn't allow these entries, many African ones would not be allowed either.
Then again, I wonder how many trophies entered in B&C were shot from a vehicle, taken with the aid of FRS radios or shot after being spotted from the air.

03 February 2002, 14:22

<ovis>

Rusty Gunn,

NO! They don't belong in any book unless the shooter wants to put them his or her photo album.

Mark,

I think you said it all. All too little integrity nowadays.

It is interesting to me that there are actually other participants on this forum, in another post, that are comparing fences to mountains, bodies of water, etc., and trying to pawn them off as being the same thing when pertaining to a hunting situation. Maybe, I'm just old fashioned or just not very smart, or maybe this is going to be the future of hunting down the road, these fenced in, domesticated trophies. I guess, by then, after the chest pounding and the tales of all that experience, they'll be able to look you in the eye and say I told you so and feel good about it. Suluuq, I' much rather have our average days in the bush where the only fence are the mountains. At least we can hunt and take game out of those mountains rather than cut them out, tangled up in a wire fence.

I'm sorry if I've rambled on but when someone justifys comparing real hunting to shooting in an enclosure, regardless of its size, I can only feel some are blinded by dollar signs or choose not to see the difference. If you choose to do this type of thing, pay your money and enjoy, I don't begrudge anyone the experience one bit. Please, just don't compare it to the real thing because it's not.

04 February 2002, 00:01

Rusty Gunn

Thanks for the responses.
I agree, natural "borders" ie mountains, islands, etc, are not in the same thing as a man-made border of some sort.

Here is where I can make allowances(sounds contrary, I know, but bare with me a moment, since it's already common practice in some places)... fences so large, that game have more then enough room to roam, as they would have in the wild. They must have the feeling of being free.
But due to the fences, NO game shall be killed as it approaches a fence! It must be fair chase, especially at this point. If the game hunted is not aware of such a fence(plenty of miles away), then it won't hinder it's escape plan(barring running towards a fence, in which case the hunter should cease hunting).
Again, even with this, unscrupulous hunters, and greedy guides, may take advantage, of which they should be stung up. ~~~Suluuq

04 February 2002, 02:11

<Bill>

SCI has an inner circle for introduced NA game

It always impresses the hell out olf me to hear someone popped a sitatunga, bongo, eland or kudu in Texas

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www.rifleshooter.com

Save a plant, shoot a deer!

04 February 2002, 04:45

Zero Drift

bearguide - I attempted to make a distinction between canned and high fenced animals. You are correct, almost any animal from RSA is contained behind a high fence. There is a huge difference between canned and fenced game. SCI has also acknologed the difference and has removed the records submitted from hunters that collected game from known canned hunting operations.

04 February 2002, 08:39

beemanbeme

At what point does a "fenced" hunt become a "canned" hunt???? Is there a magic number of acres? Or does the price of the hunt factor in? What's the difference between a fenced hunt and one where a rancher leases BLM grazing land and moniters elk movements all summer while working his cattle. Then, in the fall, the rancher/outfitter drives a sport onto BLM land, parks and waits in the truck while his sport walks over the hill and pops an elk?
A whitetail commonly lives out his life inside of a couple of square miles. If a fellow has 600 acres with a 10foot fence around it and lets you hunt inside the fence, is that fair chase or fenced?
What about Posted land versus public land or open hunting land?
The first "knee jerk" response on this is quite simple but it does become a can of worms when you think on it a bit.
I can see, down the road, heated arguments in these rooms about whether a trophy was taken on a "fenced" hunt or a "canned" hunt.

04 February 2002, 10:03

500grains

Many of the trophy elk shot today come from ranches where the elk are little more than cattle. It is not real hunting, even if the guide does blow on a bugle a couple of times to stir things up.

I have more respect for someone who gets a 5 point elk on public land than someone who gets a 380 B&C on a ranch.

04 February 2002, 18:34

<ovis>

500GR,

Amen!

Suluuq,

Good post. I'm glad I've never had to hunt in a fenced area, no matter how small or large. In my life time, here in Alaska, I don't think I'll have to worry about us being on either side of a fence.

Be safe, Hunt hard!

04 February 2002, 19:09

Rusty Gunn

quote:
Originally posted by ovis:
I'm glad I've never had to hunt in a fenced area, no matter how small or large. In my life time, here in Alaska, I don't think I'll have to worry about us being on either side of a fence.

Same here. ~~~Suluuq

05 February 2002, 05:18

Atkinson

Animals shot behind a high fence are not elegible for the book, both SCI and Roland Ward have this in the rule book...or so I have been told.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

05 February 2002, 15:21

<bearguide>

Ray- I believe you're wrong on this one. I'm not sure about Rowland Ward, but I know for a fact SCI allows entries. This is one of the main reasons why a penned elk's score is usually advertised as SCI, not B&C.
Zero Drift- I'm not sure I quite understand. "Canned hunt" is usually a derogatory term for a fenced hunt.I don't know how one would go about establishing a difference between the two.

How many would consider hunting pronghorn beside an interstate a penned hunt. Seeing as 99.9% of the time they won't jump a fence and they can't get under it, technically these fences are escape-proof. It's a touchy subject. Some believe rangefinders, two-way radios, etc. give the hunter(s) an unfair advantage over the game. Everyone has their own beliefs and limits of when they consider the hunter to have too much of an upper hand.

06 February 2002, 16:54

<leo>

SCI does apparently allow animals from high fenced ranches. In the SCI rules......#4 reads, It must not have been taken while closely confined, nor near a place of close confinement. The key words being "close confinement." There are some whitetails in the book from "The Sanctuary." Introduced species(non-native) have a separate record.