I was talking with a friend this morning who finally drew his coveted Arizona antelope tag. He's an experienced hunter, has superior optics, and hopes to kill a mid-80s buck. He has stated he wants to take a rifle that will do the job out to 500 yards (5-in. group). I'd like your informed advice---

His current arsenal: 6mm, 30/06, 7mm Rem.Mag., 300 Win.Mag.
NOTE: He's thinking of getting a Rem. 300 UltraMag. in time for this hunt.

I realize he already has rifles that will do the job. Of what he NOW owns, what is his best choice, and what bullet weight and bullet type?

Next question: how about the 300 Ultra for his antelope? Bullet weight and bullet type?

That's as much info I've got to give you; I hope you can give me the scoop ...

P.S. He'll also be returning every year or two to Alaska and big bear country.

Thanks! --- Lv2hnt

[This message has been edited by Lv2hnt (edited 07-19-2001).]

He's got all he needs now with the .300 Mag if the rifle is capable of the accuracy he needs...use 1565gr Nosler and he's good-to-go. What does he plan on hunting in Alaska. Sheep, caribou, moose, goat, black bear he can handle with his current battery but if he plans on going for griz or brown bear on a regular basis I would step up to a .338 at a minimum and better yet a .375 H&H.

His basic problem is he has three of the same rifles...the 30/06, 7mm and 300 mags are all so close there isn't a lot of real difference between them in the field...a much better threesome would be...6mm, 300 mag and .375 mag.

DB BILL:

I agree with you about his current holdings, but that's water gone under the bridge for right now. For Alaska, I think the big bears will be the main issue. I'd like to hear from more of you ...

Like DB BILL stated he has the rifles he needs already. The question then is how well will the 7mm Rem Mag using 150 gr bullets or the 300 Win Mag using 165 gr bullets group at max velocity. Both rifles can shoot those bullets at over 3000 fps. This is plenty. He should shoot the bullet that is most accurate in his chosen rifle. I would check out the Hornady 152 gr .284 SPBT for the 7 mm Rem Mag or the Sierra or Hornady 165 gr SPBT for the 300 Win. The bullet would be around 2000 fps at 500 yards and these bullets will get the job done.

Steve

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Every man dies, but not every man really lives!!

OK, I'll weigh in here too. Heck any of them will work. It's more a question of which ones he can hit with, and which are accurate. If he flinches with the 7 or 300 mag, then the '06, or hell even the 6mm would work (which 6mm I wonder?). If I had a 300 WM, I sure wouldn't feel it neccesary to buy a 300 Ultra. Not much difference between them except hype. The antelope won't be any more dead with the Ultra over the WM. All it takes is knowing your trajectory (easy), and knowing your distance (less easy). But then, what fun would we have if we didn't keep trying new guns?

Ah, sh*t, bears, too? Oh my! I wouldn't hunt antelope with the same gun I hunt bears with (maybe I read your second post wrong?). For the big bears, at least a 338 with heavy for cal bullets. More than likely a 375H&H or 416 Rigby. I know, here we go again on the bear thing, (rolling my eyes!).

[This message has been edited by BigBores (edited 07-19-2001).]

MY 300 ULTRA shoots the 150 sierra sbt at 3611 fps into less than 2 inches at 300 yards.never 3 inches high or low to 360 yards.if that is hype then so be it. with a 300 zero it is never 3 inches high and 18 low at 500.that aint hype that is fact.

Lv2hnt,

What I want to know is who died or who did he have to pay to get that tag? Just kidding! Heartiest congratulations!

Now, I agree with all the others, he has what he needs to hunt this antelope. If he wants to get a new rifle, that's a different story. But if I am reading your posts correctly, he or you wants to tie this into bear hunting in Alaska.

My opinion is first he should hunt the antelope with what he shoots best and with the most accuracy in his existing battery. Antelope are a small target at 500 yards good optics or not. For the bears in Alaska I would definitely go with the .375 H&H.

If he is of a mind to have a new rifle for antelope I would suggest a custom or semi-custom 6.5-284 since most of the 1000 yard shooters are pretty much locked in with this cartridge. Because of this there has been an enormous amount of reloading work done for him and great barrels are readily available. Hunting bullets are also well built and available. With this cartridge there would be less felt and perceived recoil as opposed to the .300 Ultra Mag. yet it has the velocity and accuracy necessary for a long range once in a life time shot.

You wanted more opinions...

Bill

Eric,

Well I should have known someone would get their feelings dented. Here are some more facts for you.

Remington factory Ultra Swift Sirocco 150gr have a muzzle vel of 3450fps. The published trajectory is: yards-drop
100-1.7 200-0 300-2.6 400-11.2 500-25.3

Remington factory WinMag CorLokt 150gr have a muzzle vel of 3290fps. The published trajectory is: yards-drop
100-1.3 200-0 300-6.3 400-18.9 500-39.5

OK, now for some more facts.

When I stay at the SAME VEL and substitute Nosler ballistic tips for the CorLokts (which have a much poorer BC).

100-2.9 200-3.5 300-0 400-8.4 500-22.5

Notice the 300yd zero. Remington used 200yd zero. The new trajectory is from the JBM Trajectory website, using the BC of the Nosler BT (.435).

Compare that to your faster than factory Ultra load and look at the amazing similarity in drops. I didn't even have to hot rod the load.

LIKE I SAID, THE MAIN DIFFERENCE IS THE HYPE. The antelope won't be any more dead with your Ultra over ANYONE'S WinMag. You'll just have to live with it. Like I said, if I had a 300 anything magnum, I wouldn't buy an Ultra. Sorry to break it too you lad.

300 yds into 2 inches sounds good, congrats.

Eric really sounds bent out of shape, but you know those 300 ultranextbestcartridgeof theday guys... always out to prove something, dont worry eric I am sure one day a cartridge will come about that will sooth all your worrys away... maybe even someone will pick it out for you, then you wont have to worry about making the wrong decision.

Lv2hnt... what unit is he going to be hunting in? Did you get drawn for anything? I only got drawn in 36C atl whitetail.

Hello

The 6mm is more susceptible to wind, the 30-06 is a little short on point-blank range. The 7mm Remington with 140-grain bullets is a little better than either of the two in a practical situation involving wind and distance. Nothing wrong with 30-caliber magnums if he shoots them well and minds the ballistic tables.

Having said that, the bottom line is, which gun does he shoot the best? The longer I hunt antelope, the shorter the shots get; for the most part, I can get an antelope with a 250-yard shot if I have a couple of days to work on the proposition.

Tom

[This message has been edited by TomP (edited 07-19-2001).]

i aint bent nowhere. just stating the facts. my load aint hotrodded either,it is straight from the hornady manual.96 gr. RL 22 fed 210 gold match primers,with the 150 sierra gameking,it goes across my chrony at an avg of 3611 with an s.d. of 9fps.that is point blank to 360.and i would say a 220 nosler at 3000 would work on a bear in a pinch.i own a 6mm,25-06,308,300 win mag,270,and have owned a 30-06,7mag,and others but if you asked about a 500 yard shot on an antelope i would want the ultra.even with the factory load numbers bigbore supplied the ultra is almost 15 inches flatter at 500 than the win mag.

SmallFry:

It's just not the same without getting those pink slips in the mail. I blanked completely this year, so I'll be putting in for one of the left-over whitetail tags. And I'll be doing the calling for an archery elk hunt up on the Rim.
My friend's antelope tag is for Unit 7 (he had 8 bonus points). It's such a huge unit that scouting really is the key. We're both Arizona natives (I've hunted antelope before), and, although we're hoping to find a big buck we can really put the sneak on, we expect most shot opportunities to be 200-350 yards. But what if ...?

[This message has been edited by Lv2hnt (edited 07-19-2001).]

I don't know if it's legal in Arizona but if were building a rifle for just one shot on antelope and that shot had to be at long range...here's what I would build.

Gunsmith.....Darrell Holland
Action.......Rem 700 (short adl)
Trigger......Jewell set at 1.5 lbs
Barrel.......Pac-Nor (1"-8") 26" long with
Light-varmint contour
Stock.........McMillan A-2
Scope.........Lightforce 5-15X
Caliber.......22/284
Bullet........Trophy Bonded BearClaw

Here come 'da Judge!

OK, complete lack of sense on my part, here we go:

ERIK, LOOK AT THE BOTTOM DROP CHART. That is WinMag trajectory. 22 inches at 500yds. Yours is 18. Where do you get the 15 inch difference from? I simply unplugged the sorry excuse for a bullet that the CorLokt is (sorry bad personal experience with that one) and put in a proper bullet, Nosler BT.

Also the factory charts are zero'd at 200yds. It makes a difference. This is my last attempt at beating a dead horse. I'm just trying to make sure you understand the point I was making.

DB Bill:

That WOULD be sweet! You front me the moola and I'll get it done ...

DB BILL I would like to bump up the setup to a 25x284. I had e-mailed you not long ago about your 257 cartridge. How close can you get to a 25x284 with it??

i see what you did now. there is 15 inches difference in the factory loads.i ran the 150 B.T. with the win mag and the ultra through my oehler balistic explorer. the win mag at 3300 and the ultra at 3600 both zeroed to never be over 3 inches high.the win mag is -10.0 at 400 and -24.5 at 500,the ultra is -6.5 at 400 and -18 at 500.the win mag is zeroed at 285 and point blank to 330 with a 6 inch kill zone.the ultra is zeroed at 305 and point blank to 360 with the same 6 inch kill zone.i never put the win mag down it is one hell of a gun the ultra is just a little more of the same idea.BTW the longest shot i ever made on a big game animal was a lazered 465 yards on a small Tn. whitetail. the load 100 nosler balistic tip with 57 gr. 4831 for 3350 fps. i am not some magnum nut the ultra and the win mag is the only 2 i own,but i got enough sense to know the ultra does outperform almost anything else when the ranges get long.the 30-378 would do it as would a 6.5 stw.i thought the thread started with 6mm,30/06,7 mag,300 win mag or 300 ultra which one for a 500 yard shot on an antelope.of those 5 calibers at 500 i will take the ultra no matter how much hype it has .

Ah, what the heck, a good argument might be fun for a change! (or, I must be nuts getting in on this thread )

If he is getting a new rifle, and he is intending on going bear hunting in Alaska, IMHO, the .338 UM would be a better rifle given his present battery than a 300 UM. It would be a better bear rifle for sure.

Antelope aren't hard to kill, but at long range, they could be difficult to hit since they really aren't a very big target (regardless of how big they look in a scope due to their markings). The 338 has plenty of speed and the .338 bullets have a little better BC to handle the longer ranges. Wish I had my ballistic program here, but I would bet the .338/185 or 200Gr ballistic tips would outshoot the .300 BT's. That leaves a great case to build a bear rifle load on for the bear hunts in the future, maybe with some 250 Gr. A-frames or Partitions. Just my .02 cent's worth- Sheister

a 338 ultra with a 180 bt at 3500 zeroed at 295 will never be over 3 inches high and would be 21 low at 500.and would surely be a better bear rifle.i was thinking of a sendero 338 RUM as my next purchase.a 250 matchking at 3000 is bound to be an awesome long range plinker.

Support the classics... get a 375 H&H.
BTW my 250 sav. makes a wonderful pronghorn rifle... at least in NM and wy.

Even if you have the technical skill to make a 500-yard shot, why?

Firstly I would not even contemplate a shot
at those ranges but if thats what he wants to do I'd say he'd be wise to invest in a
laser range finder and spend a lot of time shooting at those distances. As to rifles,
I'll let others more knowlegdable debate that.

Lv2hnt

www.LongRangeHunting.com would be another good place for your discussion

An interesting thread, gentlemen.

I usually am able to take two or three antelope each year. Wyoming's herds are in pretty good shape and the area I hunt receives little pressure due to it's geography.

All my goats are taken with a pre-64 M70 in .375 H&H. The rifle is fitted with a scope, Zeiss 1.5 x 6, for the antelope hunts. I've never shot one past 225 metres. In all fairness, I am a meat hunter and not in search of the trophy which certainly has a bearing on one's tactics.

If we fall victim to the gun scribes, then it is obvious none of the gentlemen's current rifles are good enough. Additionally, whatever he purchases new to achieve the leading edge of long distance lethality will also be obsolete when the next armchair expert, (expert: a former drip under pressure), pens an article to announce the latest all-ready-been-done-a-dozen-times cartridge that features 5% additional velocity in exchange for an additional 20% powder charge.

My antelope hunts come up in September. If I were to purchase a new rifle/cartridge for the hunt, there is no way in hell I would have the time to become properly acquainted with them to be confident hunting.... especially at 500 metres.

I think the best advice given in this thread is to use what he currently owns and is skilful with. And, my suggestion would be to reduce the distance to 300 metres.

If one wants to play with animals at 500 metres, save it for the prairie rats.

Regards,

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~Holmes

"Those who appease a tiger do so in the hope that the tiger will eat them last."
-Winston Churchill

Holmes you know it. Lv2hnt... I am not ripping on you with this post.

There are alot of hero(s)on these posts... plenty that want to "kilt them a deer at 500 yards" and what not. Here in the southwest I am always bumping into people with their 300 somethingorotherbestmagnumofthemonth... with there HUGE 40mm 24X powered star gazers. Kinda silly stuff... the realy sad part is that many INTENTIONALY want to make a long shot... who intentionaly sets out on a hunt to make a long shot? I have often wondered if they get disappointed when they "bump" into a white tail at only 125 yards... maybe they back up another 600 and take a shot.
2 years ago I went on a cous white tail hunt (a small desert deer) that you are "suppose to" shoot at 600 yards... I came prepaired I had a 375H&H with 300grn round noses, and after spotting one 400 yards out I cut the distance in half...

I started this thread to garner some input from gun enthusiasts like you who know a whole lot more about ballistics than I do. It has elicited quite a varity of responses, some of which contained a bit of skepticism which I accept with no problem.

My friend and I are known to be safe, ethical, and responsible hunters. We both use laser rangefinders for bowhunting and longer-range shooting. I can't vouch for my friend, but I can't remember ever taking a shot at big game longer than 400 yards (17-in. antelope standing broadside); most were 200-300 yards. We don't own anything close to one of the newer 600-yard cannons.

I stated right from the beginning that I knew the rifles already owned would do the trick. My intent was to acquire some 3rd-party information I could give my friend apart from what I might tell him. He doesn't even know I'm doing this.

We won't be out there purposely to kill his antelope at 500 yards. In a post above I stated we hoped to sneak in on a good-sized "goat." But my friend told me he wanted a rifle capable of that long of a shot if needed (you have to understand how hard it is to draw a rifle antelope tag here in Arizona; and a chance at a mid- to upper-80s buck rarely presents itself).

My personal feeling is that adding a 300 UltraMag is just one step up from what my friend already owns, several of which will readily take out a distant antelope. Looking at what he's already got, he should consider moving up to a 338 Win.Mag., a 375 H&H, or a new 338 UltraMag (he's big enough to handle all of them), and skip the 300 Ultra altogether.

That's where all of your input comes in. It's going to get interesting watching him read through all this, and note what his eventual decision will be.

Feel free to continue this discussion. I don't plan on depositing all of this on his doorstep for several more days. You guys show a lot of knowledge; thanks a lot for helping out!

Lv2hnt

[This message has been edited by Lv2hnt (edited 07-20-2001).]

I kinda like my .25-06.

HOWEVER, My last two antelope were taken at less than 50 yards!

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Ignorance is curable, but stupidity is terminal.

Hey now I think that you guys are forgetting the all time classic pronghorn calibers. .257 Roberts and .264 Win mag. Neither are 500 yard cartridges but then again how many of us are 500 yard shooters. Very few I imagine. Let 'em get a wee bit closer.

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JR

Ahh.... the .257 Roberts.

A Ruger #1 with a medium weight 28" barrel and a crisp 3lb trigger.

One of the cartridges I have never had and is on my wish list.

Soon.... very soon....

Regards,

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~Holmes

"Those who appease a tiger do so in the hope that the tiger will eat them last."
-Winston Churchill

My 2 cents I'd have him rebarrel the 6mm or the 30-06 in either 6.5-284 or 25-06.Then for the big boys do the same with either the 7mm or 300Wm into a 338 WM.The cost would be close to the purchase price of the 300 RUM and he would have two new toys instead of one.

ROB1SG:

Now that's some creative thinking ...

Lv2hnt

And I would throw a nice Harris bipod on the 7 mag, practice, practice, practice and go speed goat hunting. Screw the paper ballistics Boys. Go out and shoot, learn where it hits at the longer ranges and GO HUNTING.

FN

Didn't have my morning coffee yet.....sorry!

Frank, coffee or no, you've hit the nail squarely on the head as per usual. It's the "nut behind the butt" not the cartridge that makes long shooting possible. Even then you've got to dope wind. In my meager experience I've found that more difficult than compensating for drop regardless of the rifle's chambering. Still, all my shots on goats have been inside 250 yards.

PS... Frank, did you make the Bozeman show? I worked the entire weekend so couldn't go... drat! One of these days we've got to hook-up. I'll be building a house all fall so I may even miss the hunting this fall... I can't believe I'm even saying that. Still, hopefully, I'll draw my usual goat tag and get one for the freezer... put in for a cow tag down in Paradise too... hopefuly I can grass a cow for the freezer as well... no mountain climbing for a bull this year probably!

Regards,

Brad

Brad,

I worked too, that "Protect and Serve" stuff is getting old. I will make Missoula's Show on August 12th and thats about it for me and gun shows for the summer.
Lets plan on the December Show!!! 12/8-9. I will need to attend anyway so that the B&C guys can measure that big 350"+ bull I am going to shoot during bow season!

I am building and painting too so I can relate to a "Lost Summer" as well.
FN

Hello Brad

That's where the rubber meets the road; estimation of range, and windage. Neither one is trivial under field conditions, and those are probably the two variables that cause most of the wounded or missed game.

We ran across a couple of guys in Wyoming last year with nice McMillan rifles, who'd failed to make the kill at 600 yards and then walked themselves clear out of familiar territory into middle-of-nowhere following the elk and then getting back to a phone. When we saw them, they had five miles to go in late afternoon and did not even have warm jackets, let alone something that would enable them to stay overnight ( which they almost had to do ). They'd have been better off with 30-06s and a little sense.

Tom

My last two pronghorn antelope were shot with a 6x45MM with 75 gr. Barnes X bullets and it worked fine...

I think an ideal antelope rifle is the 25-06 or 270 and the 300 are fine to I suppose, but I don't get to excited about the stinkys..Never thought they were much of a challange...rate real low on my hunt list.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray,

I think part of the excitement (at least for me) is that it's so damn hard to draw an antelope tag here. I've been trying for 10 years. It gives you too much time to armchair hunt or think about it than when the day actually arrives. I've known Montana'ns and Wyoming'ns to consider them more of a nuisance up there since they're so plentiful, and they also don't get as worked up about it as we do.

There are a lot of great long range cartridges out there. But I would take my 6.5 X 284 with the 27" barrel and never look back. Have never shot antelope with it but I have shot it out to exteme range, you get magnum performance without the recoil. Even with a muzzle brake. Just my humble opinion.
Shoot Safe, Shoot Straight.....RiverRat

Hello Ray

I am hoping to finally get one this year with 6X45mm, a rebored Savage 24V with 2-7 Weaver. The idea was a combination antelope/sage grouse gun, and it might work out yet...

Tom

Im no 'lope expert but it seem's that the ones ive shot, and seen shot, have been either 300yrds or closer. Or 600 yrds and farther.

Someone who had never stalked the speedgoats in the praries of the west would probably never believe that the "supposedly flat" prairie is so "perfect" for stalking closer. I almost bought a .257 Weatherby just for goats, so much do I love stalking them.

But at least for this year I will stick to an 3006. Im going to make one change ; Im moveing up to 165 grn SPBT's instead of 150's. Its the wind you know, I just like the heavier bullets in the wind.

I have a few boxes of scirroco's that Im really going to give some time to. Last years experiments with the 180grn scirroco's showed great promise. If they dont shoot I'll move back to the Gamekings for deer and 'lopes.

But I must be frank ; I'd dearly love a .257 Weatherby for antelope.....good shooting......10