They are just a standard bullet, so one cannot logically expect them to perform like a premium bullet.

My call is they are OK on deer, and some have had success with the 250 gr. 338 on elk.,but I'll play it safe and use the Nosler as the difference of whatever per bullet is of no concern to me....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Check out this one he recovered:

http://www.rifleshooter.com/images/DavesPictures/recovered300wsmbullte.jpg

Speer and Sierra boat tails have no bond between lead and jacket. Cut one open, and the lead falls out. So the chance for separation on impact is pretty good.

Hornady boat tails have a crimp in the copper jacket to help hold the lead slug in place. Speer flat base Hot-Cor bullets are made by pouring molten lead into the jacket. That forms a bond between the lead and the copper. Speer flat bases and Hornady boat tails have very close to the same BC. Both seem to offer an improvement in retention.

My conclusion, based on a lot less experience than Ray's, is that Sierras are good for target shooting, Speers are good for deer and "everyday", and that Partitions are for elk. Partitions are harder to mushroom, so are well matched to big beasts with tough hides. A box of 50 is $22.50, and will last me the rest of my life, since a two-shot season is more than I expect. After all, I only get one tag, and why would you shoot twice at anything as big as an elk? ;-)

I suspect that some of the horror stories you hear are from using tartget or varmint bullets on big game.

Welcome to the forum.

As mentioned by our friend Ray above, these bullets, like all "standard" soft or hollow points, will work some of the time and will fail on others.

A long time ago I used some factory ammo loaded with standard SP bullets. Their performance was very erratic, so I promised to never use anything but premium bullets for my hunting.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

To say that Sierras are good for target and Speers are good for some game is wrong.

I have found that in the calibers that I shoot that the Sierras and the Nosler Partitions shoot to the same point of aim at 100 yards! This means that I can practice with Sierras and hunt with Partitions.

Even a premium bullet can fail. I shot a 165 gr Barnes X into water filled 1/2 gal. milk cartons at short range out off my .300 Win mag. The bullet lost ALL of it's petals! 100%! The shank of the "bullet" looked like something out of a 32 auto and it weighed 80 grains.

I won many rifle matches shooting Sierra's. I have a lot of confidence in that product. I recall a friend of mine shooting next to me in a match. He was shooting a 22-250 at 200 yds and was really hot. By the end of the match his bullets were keyholing and he fell apart in the aiming because of the delay in finding his shots in the target. It seems the Hornady's were fouling the bbl. Now that was due of course to a hot load that was not match proved.

Just don't make up stuff on Sierra's. The are a outstanding product.

The Remington Core lokts' in bulk are a good deal too. They shoot 1 MOA for me.

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tash
www.baitshopboys.com

According to my "read" on the subject, Speer Hot-Cor's mushroom more easily than Partitions, making them better matched to deer sized game. So why are you criticizing my statement that they make a good all around + deer hunting bullet?

Most of us won't shoot enough deer and elk in a lifetime to get a good statistical sample of bullet failure rates... Ray might have... Saeed might... but the dozen or two elk that most of might see put down don't constitute a big enough sample to establish the real bullet failure rate for even one brand, let alone three or four. The best we can do is study carefully and try to match our bullet to the situation.

For me, those choices are:

Partitions for elk. They hold together well, and mushroom slowly, making them well suited to elk. The extra cost is insignificant, given that one box of 50 will last many seasons, even if you share with your friends.

Sierras for target shooting at the range.

Speer Hot-Cor's for deer, plinking, and target shooting. Their faster expansion rate is well suited to deer and pronghorn, they have a mechanism for keeping core and jacket together for better weight retention, and they carry their weight more forward than Hornady, giving just a little more room in the case. Their "standard" bullet price makes them attractive for most uses.

I have shot a number of deer with Sierras. Most of them were the flat base. All of the deer died fast. But I practice a lot and use calibers that are large for the game. ie .358 Win and 30-06 on deer.

I don't really hunt deer with Nosler Partitions. I just load them for big game.

I have seen the best accuracy in my rifles over the years with Sierra bullets.

The 180 gr .358 Speer bullet out of the .358 Win. is a outstanding bomb for whitetails out to at least 250 yds.

My objection is that you inferred that Sierras are only for target.

Sierra for targets only? Maybe in fantasyland. I like to hunt with a bullet that shoots well on the range, and expands reliably and penetrates well into the vital cavity. The Sierra does that.

The bit about cutting the bullet in half and having the core fall out is a joke, as far as what it is trying to imply. Do you have any idea of the heat and pressure generated when the bullet is fired? That process creates a fusing of its own, so the core is not going to "fall out" of the jacket.

Check Sierra's website and send them an email regarding their specific bullet you'd like to to use. They will tell you what its recommended use is. For example, the .308 200 SBt and the 7mm 175 SBT have a 3% antimony core which retains weight better than a pure lead core, meaning more penetration.

Does the Sierra retain the same percentage of weight as a so-called "super-premium" high-$$$ bullet? No they don't. They also don't burn a hole straight through the game with little or no expansion or shocking power as the super-premium garbage bullets often so. I'd rather expend bullet power in the animal than on the far side to blast down trees and crack rocks.

If you wanna use a little calibre to shoot a big animal, maybe the super-penetrators are the only way to do it. For 98% of my hunting, I'll take a normal expanding bullet of good accuracy, in an appropriate cartridge.

quote:

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Originally posted by denton:
... Speer and Sierra boat tails have no bond between lead and jacket. Cut one open, and the lead falls out. So the chance for separation on impact is pretty good.

---

Wow. Let me say that backwards. Wow. (I still had to capitalize the first letter, eh?) That explains a lot. Thank you, Denton. I went back to the drawing board long ago, but now I know why.

The next question is whether Kuduking is right about in-bore internal bullet bonding. That kind of metallurgy expertise is beyond me. But I've seen some separations in my Speer .270-150 gr boattails that cost me.

Denton's post makes common sense even if there's a technical "can't happen" argument against it. Isn't it the hummingbird that "can't fly" technically?

Cheers, gents.

[This message has been edited by BBBruce (edited 10-29-2001).]

Standard grade bullets that are formed by forcing a cold lead slug into a copper jacket, without the benefit of something like a crimp or a metal alloy bond have a reputation for occasional core-jacket separation. If you want to say that is nonesense, that's your privilege. If you want to believe that a slug-jacket bond or a crimp do absolutely nothing to improve the chances of core and jacket holding together, that's your privilege, too.

All I've said is, given what I've read, the bullets I've cut open, and the experiences I've had, I prefer Sierras for target shooting, and think that other types have an edge in other applications. Why should that bother you?

quote:

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Originally posted by North of 60:
BBBruce. I for one don't believe that the heat of friction bonds the lead to the copper jacket. To make a bonded bullet you need some sort of a flux or solder (Corbin sells one called corebond or something close to that)

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Makes sense. A couple of years ago I shot a moose (smaller Kootenays version) with .308 cal. 180 grain Speer SP bullets trade named "Hot Cor," or some such. They held together just fine and did a good job penetrating. I've also shot .308-200 grain Barnes X and am impressed - the petals form sharp edges and cut their way through. One went end to end on a black bear at 150 yards and gained 2 grains weight enroute.

[This message has been edited by BBBruce (edited 10-30-2001).]

Elk, Moose and Eland, Zebra, Wildebeest can be a different story but even the Speer and Sierra will normally work on them...A Nosler, Woodleigh, Northfork or GS will ALWAYS work on them, why risk a $10,000 Safari or $5000. hunt on a lesser bullet, that is the cheapest investment of success you have...Your call, your hunt.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

quote:

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Originally posted by denton:
I prefer Sierras for target shooting, and think that other types have an edge in other applications. Why should that bother you?

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Denton -

It doesn't bother me in the least. America is a great country, shoot whatever you like. It's your right! It's even your right to try to persuade others to buy into the "super-premium" fantasy. It's also my right to say it's a bunch of silly nonsense.

Try to stay off the hootch when posting a reply though. Nowhere in my reply, I mean NOWHERE, did I state anything about "heat and pressure of IMPACT" (emphasis added). I think most readers realized I was referring to those factors inside the barrel and chamber when I used the work "FIRING".

What test did I conduct? I caught the bullet with my bare hands when it flew out the barrel and then cut it open while still nice and hot. Which would be about as relevant as you cutting open an unfired bullet and then making claims that your experiment has relevance to how a bullet performs after being subjected to 58,000 psi and several hundred degrees of flash temperature, forced down a barrel and swaged in the process, given an initial rotation in excess of 13,000 rpm, and impacting at two to three thousand fps.

This whole topic of jacket and core is so much hogwash. A bullet that penetrates well into the chest cavity and fragments into vital organs kills faster than any pseudo-solid. Those are the facts of medical wound ballistics, which unfortunately most folks don't know a whole helluva lot about. So instead they look in advertising brochures for little "mushrooms", or weigh bullets, or demand an "exit wound". The "exit" isn't much of a wound, its just wasted energy once the virtal organs have been penetrated.

Now for all those who are gonna write replies about charging buffalo and dangerous polar bears, that is not this topic. The great majority of hunting is not about kill or be killed. And even it it was, the same shot i described kills faster. Questions about breaking through heavy bones and armored hide, and "stopping power", is another topic.

Accuracy is the bottom line in hunting, and selling people on wonder bullets is the wrong approach. Nearly all of the major bullet manufacturers make products that work, they wouldn't be in business for as long as they have nor recommending them otherwise.

The original poster referred to Sierra .224 bullets and asked about "big game", specifically elk. Would anyone here recommend a .22 CF rifle for elk? Not me. But any Sierra bullet recommended by them in a caliber suitable for big game will work fine.

So will a Partition, X or whatever $$$$ or basement bullet someone is using. But I'd rather use a more accurate bullet like the Sierra or Hornady all the time, and I've yet to see consistent accuracy in more than 2 dozen rifles from the so-called "super-premiums".

You want experiments? Read the testimonials from hunters who've used them for years with success. And here's a Sierra bullet I recovered from a dead Wildebeest. The jacket and core didn't separate. Maybe I should cut it in half and it will then fall out?

May be we should bear in mind that Sierra bullets, as well as what we classify as normal SP, will work most of the time on game animals, especially ones shot broadside.

In hunting places like Africa, where one seldon gets a chance at a broadside shot at an animal through some thick bush, the failures of these bullets tends to get amplified, and a wounded animal might be the result.

What happens then is a whole day of wasted tracking a wounded animals. He will awalys run downwind, will see or hear you before you are able to see him. If you get lucky, you will get another chance to finish him off.

This does not happen when you use a premium bullet.

Penetrating bullets like the Barnes X tend to spoil us sometimes, as we can shoot an animal from just about any angle, knowing full well the bullet will make it to teh chest cavity to cause some serious damage.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

However, for elk and moose I prefer Noslers as extra insurance on those pricier hunts.

For elk, I have often used the Sierra 250 .338, but the bullet is softer than I would prefer, although it is great for long shots. Better go with the Nosler or another premium bullet for heavy game.

If you are using the likes of a .243 or .257, better limit the Sierras to varmints and stick to noslers for deer.

READ BEFORE YOU ARGUE!!! At least answer the guys question.

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"A school of Tuna led by a Shark can beat a school of Sharks led by a Tuna"

Most divorces are based on disagreements over small matters, so are most murders.

I think the question was how SIERRA BULLETS perform on elk sized game, not how Sierra .224 bullets perform on elk sized game. Such a question would be silly beyond imagination.

Why do you object to the related comments that forumites choose to offer?

There is no reason to get all wrapped around the axle.

Sorry, I was mearly putting 2 & 2 together. Here is one of nine of hunter1's previous posts.

"If you wanted an elk, black bear, and deer rifle for shots 200-yards and closer, what caliber would you choose?
I have a 45-70 still, but I sold alot of my extra calibers if you will and would like to build 1-rifle for varmints , plinking and one for bigg game. Just curious what you all will suggest. I hand load, so not an issue on ammo.
Thanks For the Advice! "

I lived through a decade of failing bullets, and that decade brought about the premium bullets we have today, we hunters demanded better bullet, we created the premium market out of a need, and to say the regular bullets are as good as the premiums is just so much hogwash that comes from a lack of experience...read early O'Connor, Keith, and the older gunwriters, even Agaard, they were constantly referring to bullet failure.

It happened, end of story.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Happy hunting

What was left weighted 80 grains!!!

Go ahead Barnes. Tell me it's not so!

What's far more effective is to use enough gun. Whats even more effective is to aim and hit well.

"at what time in the death of the jug of water did the barnes x bullet fail"?

In all reality even with out the pedals, barnes x bullets can be extremely fatal. There are bullet manufacturers right now making flat faced bullets that are not intended to expand that do one heck of a job of killing BIG animals at relatively slow speeds. ONe such is the garret bullet in a 45-70.

Ive use sierra--hornady, nosler, x bullets, you name it--just know what you are going to use them for and why and your won't have trouble.

Did that bullet kill the jug?

Seriously though, on many of the Barnes X bulets that I have recovered, the petals, some or all of them, seem to have come off.

But, that did not stop the bullet keeping a high percentage of its weight, and penetrating enough to do its job.

On the new Barnes X, they have changed the design so that the cavity is wider, but not as deep. What this means the bullet retaines more weight, even if it looses its petals.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

My father shot a 120 pound blacktail about a month ago with this load.Range was about 100 yards.He hit the buck in the center of the shoulder.The buck literaly dropped in his tracks.Most of the jacket was just under the hide on the opposite shoulder,with a tiny piece of lead left.I have it here in front of me.Picture perfect mushroom?No,it didn't even retain 40% of it's weight,BUT it killed that buck deader than a doornail and quite cleanly.

I don't think I'd use this bullet on big elk,but for deer sized game it certainly works fine.

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"Only accurate rifles are interesting"

quote:

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Originally posted by Atkinson:
read early O'Connor, Keith, and the older gunwriters, even Agaard, they were constantly referring to bullet failure.

It happened, end of story.

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In fact, I believe Aagaard's first published article was "Match the Bullet to the Game", written in response to another writer who'd advocated the use of solids for everything.

John

I have also seen the 308 165 Gameking blow up like a frag grenade on a small deer doe from a 30-06.

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"Certified Rifle Crank!"

"accuracy is the bottom line in hunting" -- that's baloney. I'll take a 3" gun with premium bullets over a .5" inch gun with conventional bullets everytime. Every time.

Secondly, what's with the 200 grain bullet in a WSM? I can get more energy, velocity, and thus less drop and LESS DRIFT, with a good 150 or 165 bullet. Try shooting any Sierra into anything at 3100 fps or so, and see what happens. Then try it with an X or GS.

With conventional bullets you are ALWAYS limited in the speeds you can use. Hey, I shoot 250 gr. Hot Cores out of my Whelen. At 2500 fps, through and through on a moose. Does that mean I should use one in my 7mag at 3200 fps? Tried that once, what a mess! JMO, Dutch.