The advancements in today's buckshot performance / lethality continue to be lost on the rule makers - even in the quest to make just about every other possible method legal.

It is amazing to see what is and is not considered a legal "method of take" for deer hunting.

Take Missouri for instance:

http://mdc.mo.gov/hunting-trap...ons/deer-regulations


"Methods allowed during all portions of the firearms deer season, except the alternative methods portion:

•Centerfire pistols, revolvers or rifles using expanding-type bullets. Legal ammunition includes lead bullets, copper bullets and bullets made of other material designed to expand.

•Shotguns (including .410) with slugs only

•Air-powered guns, .40 caliber or larger, charged only from an external high compression power source (external hand pump, air tank, or air compressor)

•Muzzleloading or cap-and-ball firearms, .40 caliber or larger and capable of firing only a single projectile at one discharge; in-lines and scopes are allowed.

•Multiple-barreled muzzleloading or cap-and-ball firearms and/or muzzleloading or cap-and-ball handguns, including revolvers, .40 caliber or larger, are allowed and may be carried in addition to a muzzleloading or cap-and-ball rifle.

•Longbows, compound bows or recurve bows of any draw weight; hand-held string releasing devices, illuminated sights, scopes and quickpoint sights are allowed.

•Crossbows

•Atlatls, which are defined as a rod or narrow board-like device used to launch, through a throwing motion of the arm, a dart 5 to 8 feet long.



Methods prohibited (in use or in possession)

•Self-loading firearms with capacity of more than 11 cartridges in magazine and chamber combined

•Ammunition propelling more than one projectile at a single discharge (such as buckshot)

•Full hard metal case projectiles

•Fully automatic firearms"

so my 24" 44 mag/45 colt/357 mag lever gun is illegal but my 44 mag/45 colt/357mag 20" bbl levergun is legal.
[magazine restriction]

Self-loading is an archaic term for semi-Automatic firearms.

The reason Buckshot is a NO-NO in Missouri is because of it's history to dog running and poaching.

Yes I shook my head this year when I looked at the new "Alternative" season and the weapons legal for use....why?

Buckshot is legal in many states were running deer with dogs is not legal.

Such as New Jersey, Michigan, Hawaii and Utah.

Even more strange, Pennsylvania allows buckshot in some of the state, but not all.

Ted is correct about why buckshot is banned in Mo. They have a long history of poaching with it over dogs. I personally like the new alternative weapons season. It allows me more time with my pistol and crossbow. But that is just an opinion. I can see the side that says I could just use them during rifle season, and I do. It is just about MORE opportunity.

So then it is "politically correct" to ban buckshot in some states?

That would be the only reason I can see. :-)

Looking for evidence of rational thought in hunting regulations always leads to trouble.
California recently legalized the use of air rifles on upland game including wild turkey. This opens a lot of areas in the urban/rural fringe for humane harvest and game management.
I copied the California regulations and sent them to biologists with the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife. The reply I got was that air guns are "too quiet" and would make "enforcement difficult." And yet, I can hunt these species in Oregon with an even quieter bow and arrow.

Bill, I agree. It is like the regulation in Kansas that you can not shoot the turkey in the tree, but the second he takes off, let the shooting begin. I just don't understand it.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:
so my 24" 44 mag/45 colt/357 mag lever gun is illegal but my 44 mag/45 colt/357mag 20" bbl levergun is legal.
[magazine restriction]

No one said rule makers are always smart or right.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:
so my 24" 44 mag/45 colt/357 mag lever gun is illegal but my 44 mag/45 colt/357mag 20" bbl levergun is legal.
[magazine restriction]

No one said rule makers are always smart or right.

The magazine capacity restriction appears to be on self-loading (semi-automatic) firearms.

Regarding "politically correct" buckshot:

Apparently Hornady has decided that coyotes are the "correct" target for their latest venture into the world of buckshot.

Hornady advertises this tight patterning new Versatite 00 buckshot round as suitable for targets as small as coyotes at 50 yards.

http://www.hornady.com/store/12-GA-H...ote-00-Buck-3/

http://www.hornady.com/store/Heavy-Magnum-Coyote-New

My take on the buckshot ban is that too many hunters don't know--or don't care--about the limits.

I live in deer dog country where buckshot is the norm. I've seen and heard hunters shoot at deer well beyond 40 yards, even up to 100 yards. I find dead deer after the season closes. I can only presume they were crippled by buckshot and later died.

Most all shots are at running deer, so i underastand the need for more than one projectile, but I'm disappointed by the lack of restraint. It seems like most of the deer doggers I've been around would rather shoot and hope than not shoot.

Buckshot rarely leaves an exit hole, which results in a poor blood trail. I've witnessed many hunters, too many, take a quick look for blood and then quit under the assumption they musta missed.

Frankly, I wish buckshot was banned in Virginia. Or at least I wish my fellow hunters would understand the limitations of buckshot.

I certainly agree that within the range limitations of the Shotgun/Choke/Load and the hunter's awareness of the limits of his equipment and abilities...buckshot will do the job.

As a hunter I have seen the results of both top notch performance and very poor performance with many types of firearms and loads...rifles, shotguns, muzzeloaders, and handguns. All are capable, within the limitations of the genre, of top field performance. All are subject to performance failures when stretched beyond design limitations.

This is an interesting video of a Florida buck taken from a tree stand with 20 gauge Federal #2B (18 pellet .27 caliber) . At 3.26 on the video, the pellet strike can be clearly seen. This video also shows the type of close cover that is normal for the coastal South.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvDMN4PlcZA


Here is another buckshot hunting video, this one from North Carolina. This buck was taken with 3" Federal Flite-Control 00B from a full choke 12 gauge Beretta. The wad was recovered next to the deer. This buck went down with all four hooves in the air. The shot takes place just after frame 3.54 and the FliteControl wad is recovered at 6.42:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhfZtytEYO8

Dropped in their tracks with buckshot:

Another video, this time in Virginia, where a doe and a buck are taken from the same blind in just a few minutes. A Remington Express shotgun was used with 3" Remington 00B. It is hard to judge the distance, but both deer dropped in their tracks. The hunter obviously waited until the deer were within range. See this at 2:00 and 4:27 in the video:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY1J1t-SoXk

From New Jersey with Buckshot.

The entire pattern impact can be seen at the 2.48 and 6.60 marks. This New Jersey hunt shows hunting over bait which is legal in that state.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmNOBAwOTn8

FWIW, Buckshot is illegal in WV for big game hunting and has been for a long time.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick R:
FWIW, Buckshot is illegal in WV for big game hunting and has been for a long time.

Could those regulations date back to the time when rifled slugs were barely accurate enough for 65 yard shots, buckshot was know for 5 foot patterns at 50 yards and handguns were unlawful for large game in virtually all the states?
----------------------------

Here is an example of how conventional small pellet buckshot ammo has advanced:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu148_5.htm

This report shows 14" to 16" patterns at 45 yards with Federal's latest Flite Control #1B load with TruLock extended Modified and X-Full chokes respectively.

After seeing the videos, what are your thoughts on the effectiveness of current conventional small pellet buckshot rounds (2B, 1B, 00B) for deer hunting?

What about in areas requiring limited range?

In Ohio, rifled slugs only in the shotgun season. Slugs kill fine especially the high tech ones in a rifled barrel.
I have used Buckshot when I lived in Alabama. Both #4 and OO effective on deer if you kept range in mind. I see no reason to ban buck, but I'm not a politician so I don't get to make the rules. I'd love to see rifle hunting return to Ohio!

I'm note sure

But I think buckshot isnt legal for any game in Missouri

Does any state that allows archery hunting during the gun deer season have any kind of valid reason for banning the use of Buckshot during that same season?

Positive or negative - let's hear it.

In Missouri it's simply viewed as a poachers load

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
In Missouri it's simply viewed as a poachers load

In some Northeastern states, buckshot is also associated with late 19th/early 20th century market hunting. Both are unfortunate cultural baggage - codified in law. Not much different than the negative immage associated with firearms sound suppressors.

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
In Missouri it's simply viewed as a poachers load

By whom? Why would a poacher prefer buckshot over a centerfire rifle?

The same thing has been said about crossbows, but there is no evidence poachers use crossbows any more than any other weapon.

quote:

By whom? Why would a poacher prefer buckshot over a centerfire rifle?

By the Missouri Department of Conservation. The buckshot was used rather than the centerfire because it did not need to be as precise. 9 pellets could give you spray and pray on a running animal. At least that is the thought.

I believe buckshot IS legal for coyotes, at least to the warden I talked to. It is just not legal for deer and turkey. They default to federal regulations for waterfowl.

Mo. Legal Hunting Methods

quote:

Originally posted by RMc:
Regarding "politically correct" buckshot:

Apparently Hornady has decided that coyotes are the "correct" target for their latest venture into the world of buckshot.

Hornady advertises this tight patterning new Versatite 00 buckshot round as suitable for targets as small as coyotes at 50 yards.

http://www.hornady.com/store/12-GA-H...ote-00-Buck-3/

http://www.hornady.com/store/Heavy-Magnum-Coyote-New

--------------------------------------
Interesting information:

Hornady does not use buffer material in its shotshell line. Depending instead on the VersaTite wad, high antimony shot and in some lines nickel plating to resist pellet setback deformation.

I hunt several of the military bases here in VA. If I want to hunt in the firearm season I have to use buckshot. Some of the bases allow muzzleloaders, but not all of them. So, when I go, I'm shooting a 12 Ga loaded with 00 Buck.

Last season, the guys I hunt with and myself took right around 24 deer with buckshot. It works pretty well as long and the range isn't over 40 yards. I usually try for the head it the deer is standing still and the chest if it is moving. Most of the deer we take go down at the shot but every once in a while we have one travel some.

I'd rather use slugs or a rifle, but hunting the bases doesn't allow this. Below is a 7 pt I took off Cheatham Annex of the Yorktown Naval Weapons Station in VA.



You can see where the pellets hit him just above the 2x4. And there is a doe laying to his left that you can just see the edge of the chest cavity. Both these came off a single morning hunt by 4 of us. We took 3 more does later that day but I don't have pics of them. 5 deer in one day and all fell to 00 Buck.

quote:

Most of the deer we take go down at the shot but every once in a while we have one travel some.

Pirate's Life

-----------------------------------



Your report is consistent with my experiences and with the results reported by other deer hunters.

As buckshot is increasingly used in heavy cover stand hunting and limited danger range venues by hunters who actually test their gun/choke/load combinations, a paradigm shift in effectiveness is emerging.

Most deer taken with buckshot go down with the shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:
so my 24" 44 mag/45 colt/357 mag lever gun is illegal but my 44 mag/45 colt/357mag 20" bbl levergun is legal.
[magazine restriction]

It's not particularly difficult to remove the magazine tube and install a temporary "plug" in the magazine similarly to the way 5round shotgun magazines can be "plugged" to make them legal "Water foul" shotguns

How about this for stupid rules: in Pennsylvania, a .25-20 is legal for deer and black bears, but not legal for small game.

Same in Alabama.

When it comes to inane rules for hunting wildlife Pennsylvania has everyother state beat.It is my home state and I've been blessed to hunt all over the world but far an away Penna. has the craziest regulations...and game management of any I've seen.

I'm with the other PA guys on this state's rules...there are 2 WMU's in the state that the game commission says shotgun only (that I'm aware of, there may be more). However, in those 2 areas, it's slug only, no buckshot. I believe in all the other WMUs, you can use a rifle, revolver, or shotgun, and buckshot is permitted. I'm sure that it has something to do with a spray and pray mentality, but if it's legal in all the other WMUs except those two, what's the difference? I've never hunted with buckshot, but I have to imagine that it will do the job fine on whitetails within it's reasonable effective range, like any other hunting implement.

I also agree with the above posters that say trying to understand some game laws isn't worth it. So, I play by the rules and don't let it bother me!

Reminds me of my son,s mother. Once I got it through my head that logic and rational thought were not the driving forces behind the decision making, life became much simpler..

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
Bill, I agree. It is like the regulation in Kansas that you can not shoot the turkey in the tree, but the second he takes off, let the shooting begin. I just don't understand it.

But when you shoot him in the tree and he falls out he's no longer in the tree so does that count?