High Energy Loads

01 March 2002, 16:33

elmo

High Energy Loads

These loads,(Hornady Lite Mags, Fed. High Energy, etc.) have been around for a few years now. How do they get that extra velocity with out the pressure going through the roof. I've heard a few theories but few facts. And how have they managed to keep a secret for so long now? My favorite theory I've heard (but don't quite believe)consists of a two stage compressed load, with a slow burning powder near the primer to get the bullet moving without a high peak pressure, and then a faster powder to keep the pressure high as the bullet move down the barrel. I also think this would blow off my fingers and puncture my eyeballs if I tried this at home. Well boys, how do they do it? VooDoo?

[This message has been edited by elmo (edited 03-01-2002).]

02 March 2002, 06:37

Stonecreek

My understanding is that the high energy loads generally use compressed charges of relatively slow-burning powders. This accomplishes two things: The first is that they can load to a higher average pressure without having individual rounds exceed a SAAMI maximum pressure because full cases of slow burning powder give more consistent pressures than partially filled cases of faster-burning powder. The second is that compressed loads of slower-burning powders contain more total energy than a smaller load of faster-burning powder, therefore if enough powder can be "crammed" in the case to bring the chamber pressure up to a working maximum, the bullet velocity will be higher.

The real secret to "high energy" loads is the loading process which allows a more heavily compressed load without deforming the case or physically altering the powder. There are certain powders with which this process will work, and the factories have the facilities to determine how to put these loads together.

Incidentally, standard factory ammunition usually uses a fast-for-caliber powder. Since it takes less of it to reach a desired velocity, it is less expensive to produce and therefore price margins are greater. Don't believe me? Pick up a factory load and shake it -- there's alot of space left in that case.

02 March 2002, 07:31

Bill in NE

FWIW, I heard in a local gunshop that the factories are somehow able to load the cartridges in a vaccuum or some such thing.
Supposed to help them get in more powder.
I don't know if that even makes sense, but thats the rumor around here.

Regards,
Bill in NE

02 March 2002, 08:13

<T/Jazz>

My brother in law and I did buy and shoot some of the Federal Hi Engergy loads in two diffferent calibers. The accuracy results were not good at all. We got 3&1/4 inch groups out of my 30-06 and 3&1/2 groups out his 300 mag. The results using Hornady was better by 3/4 inch average. This was done with scoped rifles and sitting at the bench from a 100 yards out on a 60 degree day.

02 March 2002, 10:54

<Rockhammer>

It is my understanding that thise higher velocity ammo is the result of powder research performed in the late 80s and early 90s for the military. They were somewhat successful and so load selected cal.s with this non canister powder that increases velocity with acceptable pressure. It also recoups some of the research and development investment they have made. I have only used the Hor. 165 gr .308 Win Lite Magnum round and found the accuracy acceptable. Nothing to brag about but 1 1/2" at 100 yds. (1 1/2 MOA). Which works for me. My handloads will consistantly group into <1MOA in this rifle though.

[This message has been edited by Rockhammer (edited 03-02-2002).]

02 March 2002, 11:08

<Don Martin29>

I agree with Stonecreeks assesment. I have not really studied this much but long ago we used drop tubes to get more powder in.

You could do this now by just selecting a powder a tiny bit too slow for your bullet and getting in all that you can. Of course you need a chrongraph and to work up the load.

I did this for a while to get rid of all the surplus 4831 by shooting it out of the 30-06. The loads gave good velocity and accuracy.

02 March 2002, 11:57

elmo

If anyone has any of these loads lying around,could you pull one of the bullets and decribe what the powder looks like. If cramming more powder into the case is the answer, why doesn't some smart guy invent a vibrating case loading block so the powder will settle and compact itself before bullet seating? Smaller granule size would help also. DonMartin, I developed a '06 load using 57grns IMR 4831 under a 180 grn Partition that performs very well in my Mdl 70 @ 2700 fps @ 50 degrees F. Nosler got 2800 fps in their test barrel with that load and it was the fastest listed in their load manual.

02 March 2002, 13:42

<Don Martin29>

elmo,

That load sounds just fine. I have experimented with hot loads and now I just use a bigger gun when more velocity is wanted. However IMR shows 59 grs of imr 4831 as a compressed load to be max and the Speer book confirms that.

A "drop tube" is a long piece of tubing. I have made some from 1/4" and other sizes of copper tubing and they are about a foot long. You hold one end in the neck of the case and put the powder funnel on the other end and dribble the powder in. Quite a bit more will go in this way.

If you look in the Nosler book #3 you will find a compressed load of RL22 giving 2,870 fps with the 180 gr bullet.

It's sort of a WSM!

02 March 2002, 13:59

John S

All of these so-called "High Energy" loads utilize a non-canister propellant that is not and likely will not be offered to the reloading public. DO NOT try to duplicate these loads with canister grade powders! That powder is extremely slow burning and is highly compressed.

02 March 2002, 14:23

RMK

When federal first came out with high energy loads,they stated that the powder used was specially made and loaded under a vacum process. I've taken rounds apart and you can't fit it all back into the case.

You would think,that one of the other powder manufacturers would introduce a similar powder to the public,since they could easily find out the chemical make up of the powder and duplicate it. Evidently the powder has a copyright. Then again,even if the powder were available to the public you couldn't load enough of it in a case with conventional reloading practices to benefit.

02 March 2002, 14:43

<Caveman>

Listen to Stonecreek!

He knows his SH_T!

Corey

04 March 2002, 23:56

1894

What is the muzzle flash like with these loads?

05 March 2002, 04:01

rick3foxes

quote:
Originally posted by Don Martin29:

A "drop tube" is a long piece of tubing. I have made some from 1/4" and other sizes of copper tubing and they are about a foot long. You hold one end in the neck of the case and put the powder funnel on the other end and dribble the powder in. Quite a bit more will go in this way.

Don, I never have been able to get an answer on this one....

I'm having a problem understanding how a long drop tube helps. It "seeeeeems" to me that a granular substance, like smokeless powder, would simply bounce around in the case when it hits bottom, regardles of how far it fell.

When someone says that a case vibrator will allow more powder to pack into it, I can understand that.

What's up with the long tube? is the length of fall causing the powder to fragment when it hits? I doubt it - that would change the burn rate.

Can you help me out here?

Rick.

05 March 2002, 04:27

<Wapi-T>

Two more cents to throw in...

Hornady describes their light magnum powder as a "cool burning" powder. I don't know if this is precisely analagous to slow burning powder, or what it has to do with the pressure curves. Maybe someone can elucidate.

So what does everyone think? Will Hornady and Federal eventually produce a high-energy load for the 300 WSM? Will it actually compete with the high-energy loads for the .300 Win Mag?

Oh, yeah, the Federal High Energy 250 grain Nosler Partition load for my .338 Win Mag has produced 100 yard groups as small as .64 inch. I don't have a chrony, so I don't know what velocity it is actually achieving, but it is very accurate in this particular rifle.

05 March 2002, 06:26

Stonecreek

Rick3foxes: I can't tell you the exact physical process by which a drop tube works, but I can tell you that it definately DOES work. The old-timers discovered this lord-knows how long ago in attempting to compress black powder loads.

Loads using coarse tubular powders benefit the most from the drop tube method, but I have found that even ball powders can be compacted enough to add an additional 3 to 4% or so to a case that would otherwise be "full" when powder is dispensed from a conventional measure or hand-poured through a funnel.

I made my drop tube by gluing a 14" piece of quarter-inch aluminum tubing (I think it came from an old-fasioned automobile radio antenna) to a plastic powder funnel. I just place it between the cartridge and the powder drop.

Wapi-t: In commenting on your question about high energy loads for the WSM line, I expect that if those cartridges are doing anything like claimed, they are already being loaded through the "high energy" method. It also helps that the cartridges are brand new, therefore the ammo companies will load them closer to SAMMI maximum pressures. As a cartridge gains some age, ammunition companies begin to back off on their standard pressures (out of cautiousness over aging/rechambered guns). I think this is silly, myself, but that doesn't change the fact that they regularly do it. Just check out some thirty year-old 7mm Remington ammunition velocities versus what you buy over-the-counter today if you don't believe it.

[This message has been edited by Stonecreek (edited 03-04-2002).]

06 March 2002, 12:36

<T/Jazz>

I shot some Hi Energy Federal loads today in my new 338 Bar. You surely can tell the difference in recoil between them and the regular factory loads. I had them all in a 2 inch circle at 50 yards standing. So I guess that is Ok.

07 March 2002, 03:16

<P H Barker>

quote:
Originally posted by rick3foxes:
Don, I never have been able to get an answer on this one....
I'm having a problem understanding how a long drop tube helps. It "seeeeeems" to me that a granular substance, like smokeless powder, would simply bounce around in the case when it hits bottom, regardles of how far it fell.
When someone says that a case vibrator will allow more powder to pack into it, I can understand that.
What's up with the long tube? is the length of fall causing the powder to fragment when it hits? I doubt it - that would change the burn rate.
Can you help me out here?
Rick.

Rick, a drop tube does work. I first tried the plastic ones that you buy at the store, but the powder seemed to stick, or, not flow good thru the plastic. I made a good one from the aluminum primer tube that came with my RCBS press.