<img src="https://forums.accuratereloading.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif" alt="Smiler" width="15" height="15"><!--graemlin::)--><BR><BR>Please vote again as this poll needs to be changed because it left out THE most important category that is practical and realistic: B)Using a serious 3 shot group, what would you consider your choice on a 1 rifle hunting battery shooting deer, elk and moose anywhere from 50 - 400 yards?A) 0.25" - 0.5" @ 100 yardsB) 0.5" - 0.75"C) 0.75" - 1.0"D) 1.0" - 1.5"E) 1.5" +

Having trouble deciding between a Savage and building my own Howa 1500 action/barrel on a JRS stock.

http://www.boydsgunstocks.com/...ngaurd-Howa-s/32.htm

These stocks are $119.00 !! and the action is $390.00

0.5 - 1.0 is good enough.

.5 to 1.0 works for me, although I alway's hope for better. We don't have a lot of wind where I'm hunting in Alabama, and we don't get a lot of shots over 250 yds.
I would think you could kill any of the critters listed out to 400 with .5 to 1.0 with a good rest.

Let us know what you decide to build!

the smaller the group the better, obviously. realisticly, 1-1.5 for a hunting gun is plenty good enough to justify good hunting accuracy. just about any decently built rifle with even an economy barrel and good handloads will/ should deliver that.
i know this forum is all about the advancement and preservation of quality in a rifle, but not everyone can afford to have a 2-3 thousand dollar .5moa hunting rifle.

My last Stevens 200 7mm shot .4moa @ $310.00

There are so many other variables that come into play, especially at 300 yards and beyond, that an extra half inch of benchrest accuracy (comforting though it is) is lost almost immediately when shooting in the field, from improvised positions, under time pressure. Unless your deer, elk, or moose are really, really small a rifle that will shoot into 1-1.5 inches is more than enough IF it has an excellent trigger and is a good fit to the shooter.

quote:

Originally posted by nordrseta:
There are so many other variables that come into play, especially at 300 yards and beyond, that an extra half inch of benchrest accuracy (comforting though it is) is lost almost immediately when shooting in the field, from improvised positions, under time pressure. Unless your deer, elk, or moose are really, really small a rifle that will shoot into 1-1.5 inches is more than enough IF it has an excellent trigger and is a good fit to the shooter.

Plus remember, wha tth erifle will do w/ a target greade bullet & a hunting grade bullet. I'll give up 1/2moa of accuracy for better terminal performance.

I don't think you see too many of those .25-.50" hunting rifles except in cyberspace. Even if you're only shooting 3 shots.

Since the rules change: You want to have the most accurate rifle possible but if I've a rifle that carries well, has that indefinable "feel good" about it that gives me an honest 1-1.25" consistantly, day in day out, cold barrel, hot barrel, sea level, 10,000 feet, I'm certainly not gonna send it down the road.

I'm still waiting to meet the guy who can hold inside 1 MOA at 400 yds under actual hunting conditions. There have not been many big game animals killed with .5 MOA rifles that would have not been killed just as dead with a 1.5 MOA rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by merlinron:
the smaller the group the better, obviously. realisticly, 1-1.5 for a hunting gun is plenty good enough to justify good hunting accuracy. just about any decently built rifle with even an economy barrel and good handloads will/ should deliver that.
i know this forum is all about the advancement and preservation of quality in a rifle, but not everyone can afford to have a 2-3 thousand dollar .5moa hunting rifle.

X2 roger

forrestB,
well said!.....i was gonna say something about the shooters' ability to hit an MOA., but decided to leave it alone and comment on the rifle only.
i too, am sick of hearing about .5 hunting guns....most guys can't hold that off a good benchrest even if the gun can and most "hunting" power scopes don't have the accuity needed.
about the only thing a 1.5" gun might not hit at 400 yrds is a ground hog!

You know a .25, .50, or 1.0 moa may not be necessary for many big game applications, but it sure goes a long way in giving a shooter confidence in his gun. I believe that confidence makes a big difference on shot placement. It may be mostly psychological, but in the end it plays a big role.

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:
I don't think you see too many of those .25-.50" hunting rifles except in cyberspace. Even if you're only shooting 3 shots.

Oh so very true!!

- mike

In forty years of hunting I've never owned a big-game (not varmint) rifle that I could consistently shoot under 1" groups with. I can't recall a miss that I can blame on the rifle either.

I personally dont care to hunt with a rig that wont do 3/4MOA. I zero for either 200 or 225 with hunting rigs, find the trajectories at further ranges and limit my shots depending on the conditions, IE 400-450 when calm and prone, much less in diff conditions.

A rifle that will consistently produce 1.5moa is plenty good for nearly all practical hunting needs, but a rig that does much better gives one more confidence.

Shooting from field conditions is the eye opener many fail to realize. A tiny group at long range is nice from the bench, but off of sticks or prone on a pack can really make one come to reality.

Have a Good One,

Reloader

I have always worked on ...if you AND your rifle can hold all groups under 4" at 100 from sticks or leaning on a tree, you and your rig are good enough for all african hunting. Sniping and target shooting are different stories, so is shooting from a semi bench rest on a tree stand. But I would say 75% of 'hunters' coming to Africa cannot meet that standard....

I would want the best accuracy possible.

ddj

In some varmint rigs I've seen my groups get down occasionally in the .3-.5" range but with hunting rifles I've had them from .5-2.0" with the 2.0" grouper taking a lot of deer and elk.

It is a lot more comforting if you are shooting at those longer distances to have a shooter that you know if you miss it's because you didn't get the wind or distance correctly doped or your trigger control was lousy, instead of thinking that all was right with the shot but it flat out didn't happen.

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:
I don't think you see too many of those .25-.50" hunting rifles except in cyberspace. Even if you're only shooting 3 shots.

I have one, but it wasn't cheap and it took me two years to sort out. It'll shoot .4 or even less with factory Federal 160 TSX's in 7mm Rem.

I would take a 400 yard shot, but the conditions would have to be perfect. I consider 300/325 to be about my personal max range.

if your going to carry the rifle any distance, i'd avoid the heavy barrel. standard barrel contour will suffice.

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:
I don't think you see too many of those .25-.50" hunting rifles except in cyberspace. Even if you're only shooting 3 shots.

Really!
I beg to differ.
Modern rifles and optics never cease to amaze me with what accuracy they are capable of. I have in my posession several rifles right now that are capable of .25 to .5 three shot groups and not just in "cyber-space". These aren't full blown customs either just good rifles that I've taylored a load for and a couple of these rifles are bone stock and will shoot factory loads like that.

For a hunting rifle, you don't need anything better than a MOA rifle. My buddy has two rifles that are probably 2 MOA rifles and he still kills just about everything he shoots at.

Snellstrom...........

You are absolutely right about rifles that are capable of .25 MOA and up. Since I have been shooting some long range competition, I have come across plenty of guys that have rifles that fit this description. I even have a couple that are .5 MOA rigs. Factory with a good load.

When I first joined the forum Vapodog (is he still around? Haven't seen any evidence for some time) said that there are very few .5 MOA rifles except on the internet.

I have buddies with Creedmoors that shoot in the same hole at 100. I have a factory .223 A-Bolt with a boss that with no real work will shoot one big hole with 5 shots at 100.....Glad he is wrong.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rcamuglia:
For a hunting rifle,When I first joined the forum Vapodog (is he still around? Haven't seen any evidence for some time) said that there are very few .5 MOA rifles except on the internet.QUOTE]
I'm not sure who said what. and Vapo Dog doesn't really need me to stand up for him. He is capable to defend himself. Fact is I have a fair quantity of rifles and non is capable of delivering .5 MOA consistently, NON. I have range buddies that are better shots than I and few of what they have can deliver anything much better. We are talking more than 100 rifles closer to 200 non of which are devoted to bench rest competition of which Hunting Accuracy plays NO PART. Hunter + rifle in the field, consistantly .5 MOA. **** In your dreams. roger

Okay I erased the poll votes because I made a mistake and asked the wrong questions.

This poll is much better worded now and actually realistic and attainable with category B) using hunting rifles.

Go vote again and don't complain to me about taking 5 seconds of your life to vote again.

A Rockchuck is about 6" wide. A 1.5moa rifle will miss more often than not at 400 yards. I got four or five Savages that will shoot 3" or less for 5-shot groups at that distance. The accu-trigger is a big part of that.

Rich

I re-read the question and re-voted.

If I had a "choice" of rifle accuracy, of course I would take the .25 MOA rifle.

I originally thought the question was "What kind of accuracy is really needed in a rifle to kill elk, deer, " etc....

In that case my first vote of 1 to 1.5 MOA stands


Is Vapodog still around?

Deer and elk at 400 yds? Some people are one whole lot better at shooting than I am. In my neck of the woods, 100 yds is long and 200 is extreme. What do you do if the animal moves at the shot, starts running and you are not quite sure if it was a hit? Open up on a runner at 400 yds?

If you can squeeze off shots safely at this distance under hunting conditions, then congratulations, your skills outclass mine by divisions, and by all means, go on with your practice. The last 3 deer I took were all inside 20 yds, so for me, a minute and a half of angle will do nicely. Reasonable stock fit and low scope mounts will be more important to me.

Every deer, elk, or moose I ever saw was large enough to hit with a 1.5 MOA rifle at reasonable ranges. Some of you may fire on unwounded game at 400 yards, but my personal limit is somewhere this side of 300. $0.02

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
A Rockchuck is about 6" wide. A 1.5moa rifle will miss more often than not at 400 yards. I got four or five Savages that will shoot 3" or less for 5-shot groups at that distance.

The accuracy requirements for a big game rifle that will also be used on varmints a quarter mile off calls for another poll question altogether.

One could say that modern hunting rifle accuracy is like that of Mechanical wristwatch movements, ... you dont necessarily NEED one that holds the most precision time just to get to work on time, but folks certainly find particular high appreciation in ones that are made to function with fine accuracy.
Many go Ohh & Ahh in appreciation when they see a custom rifle thats been superbly inletted, but many lesser rifles shoot, handle and carry just as well without such ultra fine pleasing to the eye wood to metal fit.
People appreciate grouping precision in the same way people appreciate stock inlet precision.
So yeh, a finely inletted, .5-.75" grouping mauser, is my cup of tea..

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

Is Vapodog still around?

He's still above ground working on his shed and doing a lot of hunting. roger

When I was younger and did not worry about group size, but if what I was shooting at died, I was much happier. An accurate gun does inspire a little confidence.On the distance you are shooting, it really depends upon where you hunt. Where I hunt, a 200-300 yard shot is not uncommon. The blind is high in the midst of a pasture surrounded by fields. For me wind is the X factor where my shots start getting shorter.

To Snellstrom and others that took exception to my post that .25 hunting rifles are (usually) only found in cyberspace. When you take into consideration the thousands and thousands of hunting rifles out there, your examples of one don't really compute.
Anyone that regularly shoots from a bench with a hunting rifle will tell you that shooting a .25" group, even if it's only 3 shots , isn't easy.

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:

To Snellstrom and others that took exception to my post that .25 hunting rifles are (usually) only found in cyberspace. When you take into consideration the thousands and thousands of hunting rifles out there, your examples of one don't really compute.

True, but those thousands and thousands of people and their rifles are no where near this forum.

Please understand this is an accuracy reloading forum with seperate "optics" and "gunsmithing" categories. This is not a generic Kmart or Walmart sporting goods forum.

I would expect many people are "broke perfectionist tweakers" like me so talking about 0.5" , 0.75" or even 0.25" groups does not surprise me. When your broke your usually forced to do the work yourself and that can make the difference in actually achieving these groups because the knowledge is now available for free!

These are all hunting rifles right. I think for a hunting rifle Thats real good.

We can only speak from our own experiences and in my hunting lifetime I've owned exactly four rifles out of a couple hundred that would/will shoot three shots under an inch first time-every time.

One is a Sauer 200 in two calibers. I call that one rifle. It was not cheap, though.

Two was a Krieger-rebarreled Savage 110 in 220 Swift. By the time I was done with the mods it was not exactly a bargain rifle either. It is a heavy varmint rifle so it barely qualifies as a hunting rig.
It actually shoots under .75 MOA every time and usually .5 MOA. That is five shot groups, too.

The third and surprising one (to me) is a skinny-barreled Wally World 700 ADL in 243 Win that I bought for the action. I picked up a box of green and yellow Remington 100 gr rounds and it plunked three into an inch or less repeatedly. I went back and bought all the boxes of that lot number they had.

#4 will open the group to 1.25 to 1.5 every time, however.

The fourth was a Colt Delta Elite 5.56 NATO AR-15. I worked up a service load of 25.5 gr of VV 135 with the sierra #1410 52 gr BTHP. That rifle never shot over an inch in the 9 years I owned it unless I pulled the shot. Period.

But I voted 1-1.5 because (a) it's all you need and (b) easy enough to find one.

I have changed my vote since the .5 to .75 category is available.

My reason is, I do some shooting house hunting throughout the deer season, and do have many occasions for 200 plus shots. Some of them are out to 375. I also have a shooting house window to rig up a rest on, and take a good rest. If i'm taking that kind of shot. I don't need those little wiggles to throw me off a foot as opposed to 6". Not that we wiggle that much, but most of you know where i'm comming from.

All that being said. I have several hunting rifles that aren't shooting better than 1" But if I'm going to have one rifle period.. It is darn sure going to be a shooter that I'm in love with. and I will know where it shoots, and it will group 3 shots at or better than .75 @ 100 yards. I think that is the most important consideration of this question. "A one rifle hunting battery".

What if you had an Antelope at 550 and knew your bullet would perform at that distance and velocity? Need a pretty accurate rifle to make those shots consistently and with confidence.

Besides, .75" or better is very much within reason. Why not dial it in and get the most out of it?

Settle and sqeeze! Fill the freezer

stillbeeman and tigertate***** roger

quote:

Originally posted by tc98:

Besides, .75" or better is very much within reason. Why not dial it in and get the most out of it?

Settle and sqeeze! Fill the freezer

+1