7x66 SE v. Hofe

24 June 2003, 04:21

NitroX

I'm trying to remember an article in a magazine (Hatari Times?) or on the web of a German hunter who used the 7 mm Super Express vom Hofe in Africa and around the world. He combined it with a big bore double I think which the writer examined for the article.

Its funny how the American rifle manufacturers keep re-inventing the wheel and claiming it as their own (even when inferior ).

7 mm Super Express vom Hofe vs 7mm Rem & Wby Mags

6.5x68 vs .264 Win Mag

8x68S vs 8mm Rem Mag

.318 WR, .333 Jeffrey (& 8x68S) vs .338 Win Mag

7x57 vs .284 Winchester

.404 vs .416 Rem Mag

Most with the addition of a magnum belt.

Probably a dozen others [Wink]

[ 06-23-2003, 19:22: Message edited by: NitroX ]

24 June 2003, 08:44

Orion 1

quote:
Originally posted by NitroX:
I'm trying to remember an article in a magazine (Hatari Times?) or on the web of a German hunter who used the 7 mm Super Express vom Hofe in Africa and around the world. He combined it with a big bore double I think which the writer examined for the article.

Its funny how the American rifle manufacturers keep re-inventing the wheel and claiming it as their own (even when inferior ).

7 mm Super Express vom Hofe vs 7mm Rem & Wby Mags

6.5x68 vs .264 Win Mag

8x68S vs 8mm Rem Mag

.318 WR, .333 Jeffrey (& 8x68S) vs .338 Win Mag

7x57 vs .284 Winchester

.404 vs .416 Rem Mag

Most with the addition of a magnum belt.

Probably a dozen others

They do so because european cartridges are almost impossible to find in America, and Americans prefer to buy American cartridges. American gun and ammo makers make more money, American shooters and hunters get lots of ammo to choose from, and most of it is readily available.

Try finding 333 Jeffrey in Alaska. You can find 338 Win Mag at just about any hardware store and bait shop there, though.

24 June 2003, 08:55

carcano91

quote:
Originally posted by ALF:
Overstated?? in what way?
It outruns any of the current the 7mm's including the Rem Mag, Weatherby and the STW.

Not.
I strongly suggest contrasting this opinion with the more sober and more realistic, experience-based assessment in the "blue" RWS/RUAG/DNAG handbook, page 238 (9th ed.). Just copmpare the data.

Carcano

[ 06-24-2003, 00:08: Message edited by: carcano91 ]

28 June 2003, 00:36

<Dutchgus>

According to the RWS-manual (mentioned above) it burns 10% more powder than the 7mm Rem for achieving the same maximum performance. You will never get 7mm Weth. performances with it.

28 June 2003, 03:53

dan belisle

If you're burning 10% more powder for only 7 Rem Mag velocities, I think you're using the wrong powder. If the case has more capacity, then the correct powder (and barrel, of course) will pretty much give you higher velocities, pressures being equal. Just a generality, but one that works. - Dan

28 June 2003, 04:09

carcano91

Dan:
The RWS manual may be impeded by its limited choice of powders, but the performance data from the DEVA manual are also quite unglamorous, as is the cartridge description (4th ed., p. 258).

Carcano

28 June 2003, 04:34

NitroX

quote:
Originally posted by Orion 1:
[QUOTE]They do so because european cartridges are almost impossible to find in America, and Americans prefer to buy American cartridges. American gun and ammo makers make more money, American shooters and hunters get lots of ammo to choose from, and most of it is readily available.

Try finding 333 Jeffrey in Alaska. You can find 338 Win Mag at just about any hardware store and bait shop there, though.

You miss the point.

The American cartridges mentioned all were "invented" after the European cartridges and were all new and often inferior.

Hey here's an idea, if I "invent" a cartridge being a belt-less .375 H&H but otherwise exactly the same, can I take credit for it?

Your comment Americans only want to shoot American cartridges is very sad. Why then do they use the .375 H&H Mag in such numbers [Confused]

28 June 2003, 04:55

snowman

The ballistics originally claimed for the Vom Hofe were apparently obtained with a 28 or 30 inch barrel (s). These ballistics were not attainable in 24 or 26 in barrels. This may be where the "overstated" comment comes from. It was also promoted by a gentleman who was a world champion rifle shooter. Any 7mm mag,Rem Wby Vom Hofe or any other is capable of some spectacular long range performance in the hands of "SKILLED MARKSMEN". In the hands of just an ordinary Joe who is not capable of the same marksmenship these 7mm mags become just ordinary cartridges.This could tarnish some of the comments made about these high performance calibres.

28 June 2003, 07:25

Orion 1

quote:
Originally posted by NitroX:

quote:
Originally posted by Orion 1:
[QUOTE]They do so because european cartridges are almost impossible to find in America, and Americans prefer to buy American cartridges. American gun and ammo makers make more money, American shooters and hunters get lots of ammo to choose from, and most of it is readily available.

Try finding 333 Jeffrey in Alaska. You can find 338 Win Mag at just about any hardware store and bait shop there, though.
You miss the point.

The American cartridges mentioned all were "invented" after the European cartridges and were all new and often inferior.

Hey here's an idea, if I "invent" a cartridge being a belt-less .375 H&H but otherwise exactly the same, can I take credit for it?

Your comment Americans only want to shoot American cartridges is very sad. Why then do they use the .375 H&H Mag in such numbers

The 375 H&H is NOT used in great numbers by Americans. It IS used by a majority of Americans in this forum, but that is a minuscule number of Americans. Don't know where you get your info.

Most American cartridges are newer than their Mauser predecessors. Inferior? Hardly. While find me a 7 or 8 mm Mauser cartrdige that can top the 270 Winchester, 30-06 Springfield, 308 Winchester, 300 Winchester Magnum, 338 Winchester Magnum, or 35 Whelen.

28 June 2003, 19:43

ALF

28 June 2003, 22:07

NitroX

quote:
Originally posted by Orion 1:
[QUOTE]The 375 H&H is NOT used in great numbers by Americans. It IS used by a majority of Americans in this forum, but that is a minuscule number of Americans. Don't know where you get your info.

So what cartridge in the 9.3 mm and larger category is the most use by American hunters ?

Like arguing with a pine post [Roll Eyes]

quote:
Most American cartridges are newer than their Mauser predecessors. Inferior? Hardly. While find me a 7 or 8 mm Mauser cartrdige that can top the 270 Winchester, 30-06 Springfield, 308 Winchester, 300 Winchester Magnum, 338 Winchester Magnum, or 35 Whelen.

Mmmmmmmm

.270 Winchester - 7 x 57 and 7 x 64 - a much wider range of bullets and weights are available and much more versatile cartridges. The .270 is larger an American calibre and is perhaps an "original" US design like the .30-06.

.308, .30-06 - try a 8x57 mm. The first of its type and comparable. The US army at the time was using a .45/70 [Big Grin]

. Funny how both of these use the same case head as the 8x57 and 7x57 with the 30/40 Krag's calibre [Confused]

If adding a 150 fps velocity makes it a wonderful new cartridge well ....

.338 Winchester Magnum - .333 Jeffrey and .318 Westley Richards - .338 WM is just a pale copy claiming to be "new" so Winchester could stick their name on it. My guess is the .318 WR has killed far more game than the .338 WM ever will.

.35 Whelen - 9.3 x 62 - far better round, wider range of bullets and bullet weights, has been used for the largest of game. As the 9.3 becomes more popular, the non-event .35 Whelen will die off.

.300 Win Mag - ever heard of the .300 H&H Magnum or even the .308 Norma Magnum? All Winchester did was take either round with a shorter neck and add a very small amount of case capacity.

28 June 2003, 22:14

NitroX

Orion 1 (BTW what is your other alias that you use?)

Q1. 7 mm Super Express vom Hofe - what additional benefit did Remington or Weatherby create by creating "new" cartridges with their slower "ultra fast magnum velocity" belted cartridges?

Q2. 8x68S - what additional benefit did Remington create by copying its ballistics for a "new" cartridge with the falied 8 mm Remington Magnum?

Q3. Same for the .333 Jeffrey and .318 Westley Richards vs the .338 Win Magnum?

Q4. Did Winchester add anything to the world of shooting by bringing out a cartridge with EXACTLY the same case capacity as the 6.5x68 ie their now defunct .264 Winchester Magnum?

To me it is so obvious many European manufacturers brought out ultra-velocity cartridges well before Winchester, Remington or Weatherby copied their ballistics with their "new" "creations".

28 June 2003, 23:01

carcano91

quote:
Originally posted by NitroX:
Q1. 7 mm Super Express vom Hofe - what additional benefit did Remington or Weatherby create by creating "new" cartridges with their slower "ultra fast magnum velocity" belted cartridges?

Either of the two is better designed and more practical than the German cartridge, sorry.

If you would seek a cartridge to praise, use the excellent 9,5 x 66 SE vom Hofe.

Carcano

28 June 2003, 23:08

carcano91

quote:
Originally posted by ALF:
So by this alone with all things being equal and going by case capacity alone you can get more powder into the 7X66 VHSE thus if we are working on a linear velocity per grain powder gain the 7mm VHSE wins not so?

Not so. I and two of the world's most knowledgeable reloading handbooks already told you. [Big Grin]

Just as hat size does not correspond to brain power via "capacity" and "linear thinking velocity" (ain't).

Carcano

29 June 2003, 12:05

ALF

29 June 2003, 20:07

carcano91

quote:
Originally posted by ALF:
The reloading books do not give max loads, nor all the powder options.

The first point is certainly correct, but equally so for all cartridges, that is for the 7 x 66 SEvH as well as for its competitors, such the 7 mm RemMag or the 7mm Weatherby, not to forget the old 7 x 61 Sharpe & Hart. And of course now the 7mm STW.
Besides, what a reloading book lists as a "maximum load" is not a load that will yield 4399 bar on a cold winter day with a generously cut chamber [Smile]

, but a load that will remain still within max allowable CIP presure specs even under adverse circumstances.

The second point is explicitly addressed in the sources, and is cited as the main drawback of the 7 x 66 SEvH. However, you could make an argument against that, if you'll state that newer slow powders would be giving us options that the previously available propellants did not offer. If so, please specify. There are surely slower powders around than R 905, but the DEVA folks were not too happy even with N 560 and N 165. If you know canister propellants which greatly increase the 7x66's usability beyond its present constrained borders, while staying safely withing the pressure limits (you do have a pressure barrel, I suppose ?), please feel free to drop them into the discussion. Many would be delighted to learn about these options.

quote:
it's linear untill you start getting into pressure problems and the yield suddenly rises

That is indeed what I am pointing at. Law of diminishing return. That is indeed what is generally described in German reloading literature as the "SEvH" problem [Smile]

quote:
You only need to take a peep at the old DWM catalogs to realize the europeans were way ahead in the caliber choice game.

Ewwww... that's my style of poking at US friends, you know ? [Wink]

Don't purloin it from me.

(Pssst, just among the two of us: DWM and Gehmann were also way ahead their competitors in strong advertisement and lofty claims: the Weatherby phenomenon, if one will...)

Best regards,
Carcano