09 August 2004, 01:55
RangerBobRe: Moose Gun Decision
For the most part, I agree with you.
However, you kind of make my point also. If you shoot a .300RUM you have a very limited selection of bullets. The RUM is so fast that it turns most "soft" deer bullets into groundhog bullets. These cheaper bullets only work as designed on 400yd shots. To be safe on shots from 25 - 300yds, you have to use only the best (most expensive) bullets (partitions, fail safes, x-bullets, etc.). Some don't mind the expense. I like my gun to work well with cheap or expensive bullets. So, in a 30 caliber, I tend to favor a 30-06. The '06 will work with a Winchester PP or an x-bullet (because the manufacturers know that the majority of their .30 caliber bullets have to work in an '06).
The 338-06 is a little better in this regard. By shooting slower (rather than faster) it should be able to use the cheaper, softer, bullets. It should also be able to use the Partitions since the nose is so soft. However, the top grade bullets in .338 are designed to hold together at .338WM or .340WBY velocity. Since the .338-06 is a late arrival and holds nearly zero market share, the bullet manufacturers have no incentive to make sure their bullets work in that platform.
I have a friend who is working on loads for a 9.3x57. He is having problems getting good bullet performance at the low velocities produced by that cartidge. He was hoping to be able to use the cheap Speers. He may have to buy expensive European bullets (Norma?) in order to get what he wants. Just a similar case.
You may have had great performance in your .338-06 with every bullet type. That's great, please share your experience. But, you are right. There are a LOT of .338 bullets on the market and one can probably find some that work for nearly any purpose.
But I would favor the 9.3x62. Every bullet on the market is designed to be used in this cartridge at the velocity that it can produce.
If I wanted a .338, I would buy the .338 WM.
Just my opinion.
09 August 2004, 04:32
<allen day>If you pre-64 Model 70 is original, or at least has the original barrel and shoots well, I'd keep it as a .30-06.
If you convert the Mark X to 9.3X62, you'll still have a great, new, and capable cartridge to work with and enjoy, and you won't be sacrificing as valuable a rifle.
That's the route I'd take.........
AD
09 August 2004, 04:41
ChasseurIf its between the two: 9.3x62 no question. Great selection of bullets, great calibre. Out where you will go moose hunting the 338-06 will not be any more availible than a 9.3 so ammo availibility is a none issue. I also think the current American vague of bashing the 9.3s because they have a "rainbow" trajectory is overblown, actually look at the balistic tables and see how much drop they have and for the ranges you would use the calibre at its not a big deal. My favorite was this guy telling me a 9.3x74r so no good compared to a 375 because it would "drop like a stone after 150 yards". Come on its a double rifle how far are you going to shoot it?
As some of the earlier posters have said, moose don't take much to kill but they don't drop very fast either. A lot of moose in Alaska and Canada are dropped by locals who don't have "mega magnum, wildcat, short-magnum (or whatever the current hype in the magazines is about)": 303s, 30-06, 7mm mag etc. Generally moose get fatally hit and then wander arround for a minute or two and then drop no matter what they are hit with.
09 August 2004, 10:53
Ray, AlaskaI too agree with you when using softer bullets with fast guns at close range. In that case, I would use a "softer," but heavy-for-caliber bullet with the fast gun. For example, a 200 to 220-grain, relatively soft Partition bullet, does well even at close range, simply because of its additional bullet weight it won't travel as fast as a lightweight bullet.
A Nosler Partition is designed to work from close-up to relatively far distances. At close range it may expand a little sooner, and even shed some or most of its nose. However, the shank will plow through and still do its work. Now, if one wants a relatively soft bullet that retains more of its weight, then one could use a Partition Gold. One could also go from the Partition to a bonded bullet of the same weight, such as a Swift A-Frame, or to a TBBC. Nosler produces even harder bullets, such as the Partition that is designed to Lazzeroni's specifications, but the plain old Partition has killed most bears in Alaska from a few feet away to far distances, with both fast and slow guns.
Elk hunters do very well with the .338WM and .338-06 and the same bullet, the 210-grain Partition, but there is nothing wrong with using 250-grain Partition bullets and the .338-06 for closer ranges. The bullet travels slower, drops a little sooner, but it penetrates deep at those .338-06's ranges. In fact, there are a great number of "slow" cartridges that are famous for dropping game fast when heavy bullets are used, regardless of bullet toughness. Just read the stories about the .35 Whelen, .338-06, 9.3x62, .338 Sabi and others, killing game with those heavy bullets. All these cartridges use the same bullets used by faster ones.
You can use arelatively soft 300-grain Woodleigh with any of the .338's, and still do the job at close range, as well as a 275-grain A-Frame.
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Now, those of you who regularly hunt Alaska moose already know that the most popular cartridges up here are the .30-06, .300WM, and the .338WM. We Alaskans already know that.
The .30-06 with 180 to 220-grain Partition bullets will drop a moose fast, even Alaska moose. For maximum penetration, however, and for quartering or bone breaking, far and close shots, the .300's and .338's are kings up here.
I have killed moose as close as 100 yards, and as far as 300, most with 230-grain FS bullets, one with a 250-grain A-Frame, and another with a 250-grain Partition from Federal HE ammo. Of all the moose I have killed with my .338WM, two walked a few paces. The first one I killed, long ago and 300 yards away, I missed the vitals, and by pure accident I broke both leg bones above the knee. It still managed to walk a few paces by the time the far leg broke, then i finished with a shot on the head. Since then I have gotten much closer, and I have learned to kill moose fast with proper shot placement. The largest moose I have killed dropped about 25 yards from where I shot it. It was a quartering away shot that broke the far shoulder bone after destroying the lungs. The rest of my moose have dropped on the spot, or very close to it as follows:
1. Moose broadside, browsing, not aware of my presence, 200 yards away: I aimed the rifle to "just" miss the shoulder bone, low on the chest. However the 230-grain FS hit the shoulder bone braking it, clipped the top of the heart, broke the far shoulder bone, and exited. The bullet hit, and the moose jumped up a little, and almost instantly dropped on its belly.
2. Moose walking broaside to me through the forest, aware of my presence, 250-yards away, then steps in the clear by the trail. I fired my rifle, and the 250-grain NOS HE hits the moose halfway through the lungs. The moose pivots on its hind legs, and drops on the ground facing the direction it had come from, dead. The Partition put one hole in, and left two holes on its way out.
3. Moose browsing in the brush, aware of my presence initially, 150 yards away. Thirty minutes later it had gotten used or forgotten me, so it walks into a clearing, 100 yards away. I still can't see the low chest area, but I can see from the mid point on the lungs up. I hit it right through, as low as possible, with a 230-grain FS. The moose staggers, and drops on it's belly before I have reloaded the chamber for a followup shot, and I watch it die.
4. Last years moose: I can't see a moose anywhere in this large open field of low growth, but I decide to make a couple of moose grunts, then sit on a small chair under an Army poncho I had stretched overhead from the trees. A few minutes later, I am dozing as I watch the fog moving across my field of view. The vegetation reflects the sun rays in a myriad of rusty brown colors accented by the white birch trunks...my eyes close. All of the sudden I hear a loud scrape. The noise startles me, and I immediately realize what this noise is. I don't get up to look, but instead look first, then slowly stand up for a better view, and there, in the middle of the same field where I have killed several moose, a bull stands scraping the trees with its antlers, 200 yards away, facing away. All I can see is its rump followed by its long back, and the antlers trashing back and forth in a rage. I support my .338 on a branch, set the safety lever two positions forward to FIRE, and with my index finger along the top portion of the trigger guard, wait for a clear shot. The moose keeps its direction, but walks away about 50 yards, then turns broadside "just" slightly. I shoot it on its left rib cage with a 225-grain XLC. The angle is not good enough for a lethal quartering shot, however, and the bullet skips along the ribs scraping a few exiting by the brisket. The shock makes the moose jump to its left, broadside to me, and it stands there like a statue. I immediately send a 250-grain A-frame on its way, and the moose drops on its side, its spine along the low side of the mountain, right legs up in the air pointing towards the high ground.
I have seen moose shot with .30-06's, .375's, .300W's, .300Wby., and .338's, and can tell you stories about all of these. There are times when moose have taken several shots from the biggest guns I have mentioned, but I have seen the biggest moose ever being killed by one of my hunting partner with his "slow" .30-06 and three 180-grain Partition bullets.
Those moose that become aware of your presence and spook take the longest to kill, unless the first shot is very lethal. When the animal spooks, that's when most hunters take longer to shoot the right spot, and some of us even "spray lead around" in desperation.
By the way, you may see some the European mechanic's socket rifles around Canada, but not around here. I have seen a couple of .375 taylor rifles, at least one .338-300 (something like that). I have seen or heard of a few .35 Whelen rifles, and well as a few .338-06's.
I apologize for the long response, but I can't contain myself. Moose hunting is near. I didn't edit my stories, so I have probably made a few spelling errors.
08 August 2004, 18:48
Ray, AlaskaRangerBob: Some .338-caliber bullets are designed for the fast .338's, while there is a great selection of "softer" bullets one can use for the slower .338's. The list of bullets manufacturers is very long, and each one of them produces several bullets designed for specific conditions. Lets take a look at the 220-grain Partition for the .30-06: You can launch the same bullet out of a .300WM, .300RUM, .300 Weatherby, etc., and still kill just as dead. It's the same with all cartridges, including the .338's. If one was to say that most .338 bullets are designed for the fast .338's, not for the slow ones, then one could also say that most .30-caliber bullets are not designed for the slower .30-caliber guns. However we all know that the .308, .30-06, and a great number of slower .30's use the same bullets the fast .30's do.
In addition, those who still want to use Barnes-X series of bullets, Fail Safe, etc. in their "slower guns (regardles of caliber), can stil do so by selecting lightweight bullets. In this case, the reduction in bullet weight provides for additional speed.
