He's got an 06, that he wants to open up to 338 and use a 250 grain bullet. Most of his shots are under 200 yards.
Given those conditions, and, using the rifle for general, all around game, as well as anti-bears, what would you guys suggest, and what are the benefits, or problems with each?
By the way, he has a 375 H&H, so, I guess he doesn't feel that's a good all around solution.
gs
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Because enquiring minds want to know...
I love 45
santilli@singleaction45.com
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In other words, cost of brass, and handloading is a major component of the equation. The person is going to use the gun for putting food on the table, in part, and general protection as well.
GS
[This message has been edited by Socrates (edited 04-02-2002).]
MM
I guess I'm wondering why he's after the 250 grain bullet, in 338, rather then the 35 Whelan?
He also has done extensive testing that indicates penetration is optimum in the 2200-2400 fps, and, I think he's after the heavier bullet in 338, yet likes the flat shooting to 200 yards??
In a light rifle, with little recoil?
Sort of makes sense. If he has a 375, and doesn't want to lug it around, the 338-06 gives him almost the same bullet diameter, and nearly the same weight, premium bullet,
as the 35, with better penetration, I suspect, at the velocitiy he likes to hunt with.
PDog: I guess this area of Wyoming has Griz well protected, and, he's finding LOTS more bears then before, and, they are both large, and territorial. As he put it, a serious bear problem exists, since, if you have to defend yourself, the Federal government is on the bears' side.
By the way, Tim Sundles had a similar experience with a wolf, shot it, prior to it killing his wife, and the government report was, shall we say, inaccurate...
Sundles managed to prove the report wrong, others might not be so lucky...
gs
.30-06 with 220 gr. "well constructed" bullets will do the job. I would be interested in how .30 220 gr. @ 2400 fps. compares with .338 250 gr. @ 2400 fps for penetration.
It is amazing how quickly the bears figure out they are protected and how agressive they become.
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Davis Chase
My 22" bbl'd 338-06 would do 2,550 with 250's and 2,700 fps with 225's... whack off 2 or 3" of barrel and you'd have 2,400 to 2,500 fps with 250's depending on your barrel.
I've generally used a 338 Win Mag here in Grizzly Country... 225's at 2,850 fps. That should do...
Brad
He probably figures he doesn't need to lug around a 375 for most of his hunting, but, if he happens to nail a deer, at under 200 yards, and has bear company, he wants something he won't feel undergunned with on the bear.
Perhaps have the last couple rounds in the mag be heavier slugs, like the 250's, and use lighter rounds for deer?
Anybody have a sling that really takes the weight off your shoulders for carrying a heavy rifle?
I can't get over how so little weight, about 3 pounds, from a 06 to a 375 Magnum can feel like so much when you are carrying it around.
Course I felt the same about a Walther PPKS
vs a lighter Detonics Mark 6...
Also since this guy is one of the better gunsmiths any where, converting the rifle is not going to cost him much. Probably got the parts free on a trade or something anyway.
Have to give him a call and see why he decided on that caliber...
Wonder how much a 375 would kick in a 7 pound rifle???
gs
gs
What kind of bullets did they use in this test?
Isn't the 338 a pretty well regarded hunting caliber, in general, when combined with premium bullets???
Sounds like my 06 will stay an 06...
Guess he wants the heavier 250 grain bullet,but, at 06 type velocities, the 35 must be a bit too wide to get the penetration he's after.
I kind of wonder about the 375 H&H not out penetrating them all.
Isn't that sort of the standard for penetration of dangerous game, when used with solids??
Need more info on this test..
gs
quote:
Originally posted by Rob1SG:
Fella's I have seen the results of tests done with all these. The 338-06 at 2500/250gr will out penetrate the 35 Wh/250gr, 338 WM/250gr and the 375 HH/300gr.I must add that during the same tests the 30-06 w/220gr did best the 338-06 by .2".These tests were done by Finn Aagaard in Handloader Mag.
That must be taken with the grain of salt that I have never heard of the 35 whelen or 375 H&H condemed for having insufficient penetration. Me thinks the 35 whelen is a better killer with 250 gr bullets, and the 338-06 is better matched to 210-225 gr bullets. Once you're getting consistant exits, you gain nothing by going with heavier bullets at lower muzzle velocity.
With all that said, just tell him to buy a 338 win mag, you can get a complete rifle for the price of a 338-06 barrel job, can download to 338-06 levels if desired, or load it up to levels the 338-06 is incapable of.
quote:
Originally posted by p dog shooter:
30 grs of bullet is not going to make a differants to any thing you shoot IE 220 vs 250 at the same vel.
On the face of it, it sounds good. That said, If you are getting consistant exits with a 180 gr bullet in your 30 caliber, do you believe going to a 220 gr will make it a better killer?
I am firmly convinced that the 35 whelen w/ 250 gr @ 2400 fps in the field is a vastly better round for large game (700#+) then the 30-06 220 gr @ 2400 fps.
Paul, as I said earlier, this guy knows more about guns, and smithing then I ever will, since that's his profession.
I know it won't cost a dime for him to change barrels, and he's just waiting for the dies.
I'm more intrested in WHY he wants to go to that caliber, rather then the 35 whelan, then making much of a suggestion to him.
I don't think cost is of any factor, and, I know he loves to hunt, and hasn't been able to do so for about 5 years, because of where he was living.
That said, he's taken a lot of game with a 45 pistol, and, I find it REAL intresting that he chooses the 338-06 for a hunting rifle.
I've always passed this caliber over, going for more caliber, but this guy invented handgun caliber, and if he's settled on a 338, then it must be one hell of a great round, and, a great compromise for his purposes, hunting, kicking around, and bear protection.
He did say he was after the 250 grain bullet, and felt that was worth the conversion alone, vs. the standard 30 caliber heavier 06 bullets.
He's also not a magnum guy. Believes if you can't get it done with under 30,000 cups, you should go up in caliber, not pressure.
i.e. if 44 isn't enough, go 45. If that's not enough, go 475, or 500.
I strongly suspect he's packing a 475 or 500 for a backwoods gun.
Paul said:
"I am firmly convinced that the 35 whelen w/ 250 gr @ 2400 fps in the field is a vastly better round for large game (700#+) then the 30-06 220 gr @ 2400 fps."
I think he's pretty much convinced that the 250 grain bullet is what makes the difference, and, the caliber helps. Bigger bullet, crosswise, means it opens up better, if it's got the mass to open up, and still penetrate.
Perhaps the attraction is this bullet rifle combination is sufficent, without the extra weight of a magnum action? In other words, it's more comfortable to carry a modified 06, then lug a magnum based action around???
gs
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
At the same velocities the 220 grain '06 bullet penetrates best due to it having the greatest sectional density of all those mentioned.
2 important points, 1, sectional density is a meaningless #, because it ignores bullet construction. A bullet with less sd can penetrate deeper then one with a higher sd due to construction.
2 and most important, if your 250 gr .35 cal bullet has sufficient penetration for the task at hand, which means consistant exits on broadside shots, then the smaller dia bullet that penetrates more, gains you nothing, because you have a smaller dia wound channel.
EXACTLY
gs
quote:
Originally posted by Paul H:
... sectional density is a meaningless #, because it ignores bullet construction. A bullet with less sd can penetrate deeper then one with a higher sd due to construction.
Your comparison is a misnomer (is this the word?)
It requires a standard bullet being compared to a premium bullet. In this case a premium lighter bullet may penatrate deeper, due to better weight retention.
Now, if you were to make the playing field fair, things may be different, and I tend to believe it will.
Example...
220 gr 30 cal Partition
225 gr 35 cal Partition
The 30 cal has a better density, and hense will penatrate deeper. You'd need testing media for this, since both may come out the other side of your test animal subject. ~~~Suluuq
Since the sectional density does not require bullet construction to calculate it, I stand by my statement that it is a meaningless #.
I get kinda tired of hearing how, such and such has a higher a sd, so will penetrate better. You have to look at the whole picture, which means how much penetration is enough, and what type of bullets are you shooting.
A number of well known gun guys have found that given similar bullets, usually LBT, very hard lead, penetration can be greater at SLOWER velocitiy.
Another variable to add to your 35 whelan, 338 mag comparision.
None the less, I agree that bullet construction, and the velocity that bullet is optimized for, are the most important in penetration.
gs
Here's his take. He's not going to rebarrel, but buy a Model 70, if which he has three already, the heaviest in 270 mag.
He's going to rechamber for 338-06OKH. The OKH is important, since it's his way of paying respect to Elmer Keith, and company.
I also got a lesson in bear ballistics.
Apparently he says you get pretty much one shot on a bear charge, period, and for that charge he wants a large caliber, heavy bullet, that will kill with the first shot.
He likes big, heavy bullets, and figures the
338 is the best of the bunch to go in a Model 70, without having to lug a 375 around.
So, he has 4 or more rifles, all the same design, in varying calibers, for hunting.
Figures he can pack a 338 model 70, and have the most avaliable when he runs into a bear.
Doesn't like the 35s' due to a lack of bullet selection.
gs
And, why would you want to mess up a perfectly good gun, even if you could?
I got a good look at my CZ 550 Magnum when it was in pieces, and there doesn't look like a lot I would want to cut off.
Sides, I suspect the 375 has been around a long time, and he'd sooner cut off his arm then start cutting on it.
gs
Hope you are right about the bears...
gs
. My solution, is a 7600 rem pump in Whelen with a 10 round magazine. As fast as anything, and she shot through my moose last year with 250 gr. Hot Cores.
Sure hope I never get to see that p.o.'d bear, that's all I can add to that. JMO, Dutch.
quote:
Originally posted by Paul H:
Suluuq,Since the sectional density does not require bullet construction to calculate it, I stand by my statement that it is a meaningless #.
I get kinda tired of hearing how, such and such has a higher a sd, so will penetrate better. You have to look at the whole picture, which means how much penetration is enough, and what type of bullets are you shooting.
Your thoughts on what is enough penatration is a valid one (if the bullet comes out the other side, then it's enough), but its not the point here. I'm not talking about animals, but the potential penatration factor of a given bullet.
Given a proper testing media, one can prove SD does make a difference.
A premium bullet is designed to retain weight, right? This retained weight, for their given diameter, allows for a certain degree of penatration. One that is heavier for it's diameter, goes deeper. This a fact neither of us can change.
All this has to do with weight retention by it's design, not the design itself. You can have a Partition made of wood, and one made of styro-foam. Both are "premium" by design, but only one will go deeper. More weight penatrates further. How its retained is secondary.
Somewhere within this penatration factor "chart" is your animal. Either a bullet will go through, stay in, or come out the other side. As the bullet goes through, your done with it. What you don't see is how much further it may have gone, had their been more animal to penatrate.
~~~Suluuq
[This message has been edited by Rusty Gunn (edited 04-05-2002).]
Grizzly? I think that would dew the trick. Probably Barnes X, at least with Saeed's success. If it will go through 5 feet of cape buffalo, it should do the trick on a lighter, 1500 pound, angry, grizzly.
This whole thing opens up a really good question: If you are hunting deer, in Wyoming, should you approach it like an Africa hunt, with a backup rifle? I think the answer is yes.
Front rifle, for deer.
Dad should have at least a 375 for backup.
I'm not sure that a 375, or 400 Whelan wouldn't do the dew, but, the 375 H&H will, for sure...
gs
Any wabbits by Mudd Lake these days?
Thanks
"GET TO THE HILL"
Dog
by the way ol Grizz does not get that big(1500#), even his big brother from the coast will rarely if ever hit that!
[This message has been edited by Mark R Dobrenski (edited 04-06-2002).]
For a factory gun he could look at the 9.3X62 with 286 grain bullets which has been use in Africa with great sucess.
Good luck.
Snapper