Unusual 9.3

18 July 2003, 15:48

mbogo375

Unusual 9.3

Since 9.3 calibers have been a hot topic on the forum lately I thought that I would post photos of an uncommon 9.3. This is a 9.3x80R double with nitro proofs by Collath that has an unusual action. To open the underlever is swung to the left causing the barrels to move forward before they tip up. The locking system consists of an extension to the rear from the barrel lump that fits a recess under the standing breech. Additional locking is via raised lugs on the breech that fit into the recessed chambers (they are rim diameter, and naturally have a central hole for the firing pin).

Also of interest is the wing type safety. It provides a visual confirmation of being on safe, as it obscures the sights until it is turned to the fire position (an ingenious, if somewhat cumbersome safety feature). Quality wise it is of a high order, with Germanic game scene engraving, set triggers, and claw bases (unfortunately I don't have the rings or scope). After owning it for over 25 years I am finally going to do some serious load development work with it [Big Grin]

.

Jim

[ 07-18-2003, 06:49: Message edited by: mbogo375 ]

18 July 2003, 15:55

Atkinson

Thats a very interresting and nice old gun....thanks for sharing that one with us...

19 July 2003, 09:08

The german scope mounts on the rifle are called SEM (Suhler Einhak-Montage). Parts would be easy to obtain over here. Fitting is somewhat tricky compared to modern mounts, but any german gunsmith with some expierience on SEM could easily put a new scope on it if you want.

18 July 2003, 23:32

<'Trapper'>

Any info on the original load specs for this caliber? I think the rounds look like some of the old Sharps black powder rounds but you said it was Nitro proofed? Very interesting indeed, and I second the thanks for sharing it with us. BTW, where do you go to shoot it? Would like to show up and watch if you shoot in the Atlanta area.
Best regards,

19 July 2003, 01:00

D Humbarger

Thanks Mbobo, Very interesting to say the least.

19 July 2003, 03:00

mehulkamdar

Mbogo375,

Beautiful old rifle - you are lucky to own such a rare piece. [Smile]

On the other hand, I guess that it is a sad comment on our times that this kind of experimentation with gun designs etc has all but come to an end.

Makes you all the luckier, Mbogo!

Good shooting!

19 July 2003, 06:02

<JOHAN>

mbogo375

Very nice rifle. It's good to see that it's in such good condition and that the owner cares about it.

Is this camberd for the 360 Collath? In which condition is the bores.

When is is made and by whom?

The locking system reminds me of the old Husqvarna shotguns. Tressure such rifle..

/ JOHAN

19 July 2003, 09:46

Judson

You know old guns like that are trouble I will be a nice guy and take it of your hands so it does not trouble you any more!!!
Since we know that is bull I will get to my point. There is a book Cartridge conversions it should have some loading info in it I will check tomorrow also call Afco Ammunition he will in all probability be able to supply brass, loading info and anythiny else you might need. Talk to Tony, nice guy. 1-715-229-2516.
Old rifles like yours are really nice, too bad they can not talk ant tell us their history.
I have never seen one like that, you going to hunt with it?

19 July 2003, 12:18

mbogo375

Thank you gentlemen for the kind comments. In answer to your questions:

Trapper,
Unfortunately there does not seem to be a lot of information available about the 9.3x80.
I don't shoot in the Atlanta area, but I would be happy to have you come down to the Vidalia area for a little shooting and general hot air session [Big Grin]

. Drop me an email if this would be of interest.

Johan,
The maker was W. Collath & Sohne - Frankfurt. As to a date, it is not marked, but the proof marks are consistent with the 1912 to 1939 period.

Barrels are marked TESCO (a Collath marking from the 30's ?), and GM in an oval, as well as Krupp for the steel. The standard proof marks are also present. Proof load is listed as steel jacketed 12.7 gram bullet (no powder listed as would have been there with the earlier proof law).

Caliber is listed as 9.3x80 on the barrel lug, but as 8.7mm/80 on the barrels themselves. The actual groove measurement of the barrels is .3655", and condition is excellent. I suspect that this was a Collath variant of the 9.3x80 since the chambers measure .442" at the base rather than .427 to .430 like the 9.3x72 based cartridges. This is a problem since the only cases available here for reforming are the Bertram 9.3x82R basic cases, and they measure only about .427 at the head. This means that there will be a significant amount of expansion above the web on firing, but I am considering neck sizing with 9.3x62 dies backed off an appropriate amount to prevent overworking the brass. Do you know of any .440" or so brass that is available now?

Judson,
Thanks for the suggestion. I have checked Cartridges of the World and Donnelly's Handloader's Manual Of Cartridge Conversions, plus Quickload has some information on capacity and maximum pressure. The accuracy of any of these sources on such an obscure cartridge needs to be carefully considered before basing any handloads on it though.

Incidentally, the brass that comes closest of the US calibers is the 220 Swift. It actually chambers in this rifle as is, so I may have to try to find someone who can draw this case to 80 mm's. Maybe I will have to talk to Buffalo Arms, but I don't know if they will do a special order such as this in a small enough quantity to make it feasible.

I am still looking for sources of 9.3 bullets in the 190 to 200 grain range. I know that they are listed by Old Western Scrounger and Hawk, but I was hoping for some less expensive options.

Jim

[ 07-20-2003, 01:22: Message edited by: mbogo375 ]

19 July 2003, 12:45

Judson

Try Afsco and my customers have had dismal bullet failure with Hawk bullets. One guy was told that the .358 diameter would hold up under .358 Alaskin velosity, he had jacket seperation with a .35 Whalan on a Elan with two bullets. You might try Woodly for bullits but I am not sure.

19 July 2003, 12:47

CoonDawg

Mbogo 375 check with quality cartridge.com they do quite a few new and old/exotic stuff! Since they make it themselves might just be what you are looking for.

Hope this helps in your quest. BTW you"re a lucky man to have such a nice rifle.

20 July 2003, 07:38

<JOHAN>

mbogo375

THe only one who could have brass for you is Horneber or some custom maker in USA. The easiets way to determin the caliber would be to make an cast of the cambers and compare it with the reamer blue prints.

Nice rifle
/ JOHAN

20 July 2003, 09:16

<eldeguello>

I agree with Atkinson. Thanks.

21 May 2006, 02:56

tera

quote:
Originally posted by mbogo375:
Thank you gentlemen for the kind comments. In answer to your questions: Trapper, Unfortunately there does not seem to be a lot of information available about the 9.3x80. I don't shoot in the Atlanta area, but I would be happy to have you come down to the Vidalia area for a little shooting and general hot air session <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Drop me an email if this would be of interest. Johan, The maker was W. Collath & Sohne - Frankfurt. As to a date, it is not marked, but the proof marks are consistent with the 1912 to 1939 period. Barrels are marked TESCO (a Collath marking from the 30's ?), and GM in an oval, as well as Krupp for the steel. The standard proof marks are also present. Proof load is listed as steel jacketed 12.7 gram bullet (no powder listed as would have been there with the earlier proof law). Caliber is listed as 9.3x80 on the barrel lug, but as 8.7mm/80 on the barrels themselves. The actual groove measurement of the barrels is .3655", and condition is excellent. I suspect that this was a Collath variant of the 9.3x80 since the chambers measure .442" at the base rather than .427 to .430 like the 9.3x72 based cartridges. This is a problem since the only cases available here for reforming are the Bertram 9.3x82R basic cases, and they measure only about .427 at the head. This means that there will be a significant amount of expansion above the web on firing, but I am considering neck sizing with 9.3x62 dies backed off an appropriate amount to prevent overworking the brass. Do you know of any .440" or so brass that is available now? Judson, Thanks for the suggestion. I have checked Cartridges of the World and Donnelly's Handloader's Manual Of Cartridge Conversions, plus Quickload has some information on capacity and maximum pressure. The accuracy of any of these sources on such an obscure cartridge needs to be carefully considered before basing any handloads on it though. Incidentally, the brass that comes closest of the US calibers is the 220 Swift. It actually chambers in this rifle as is, so I may have to try to find someone who can draw this case to 80 mm's. Maybe I will have to talk to Buffalo Arms, but I don't know if they will do a special order such as this in a small enough quantity to make it feasible. I am still looking for sources of 9.3 bullets in the 190 to 200 grain range. I know that they are listed by Old Western Scrounger and Hawk, but I was hoping for some less expensive options. Jim [ 07-20-2003, 01:22: Message edited by: mbogo375 ]

For case 9.3 x 80 mm can tone to form it has leave one other case has 9.3 x by 82 mm R

Mercie