This last spring I heard that the Dept of Natural Resources had approved a cartridge design for a centerfire rifle. For years handguns over .357 could be used but no rifles. Well someone, I don't know who, took it apon
themselves to puss for a rifle. The following are the simple specs for the case. The case is to be no shorter than 1.160 or longer than 1.625. The caliber is to be no smaller than .357 in diameter for the projectile. Well off the drawing boards came a WSSM necked up to 35 cal. There are several ways to go with this but I want to stop here and ask if this news has been posted before? No need for me to rewrite what is already known. If not I would like to proceed with my story. Please update me on this.

Samm

Please proceed with your story.

I am from Indiana originally and a buddy of mine up there had a gunsmith in Peru build one of these. Unfortunately, my buddy isn't really a gun guy so he was not able to tell me a lot about it and I'm curious as to what it really is.

Ummm, I'm sorry, but I have to ask:

What was the point of Indiana's cartridge limitation in the first place? I'm guessing that it had more to do with over-penetration, maximum range and human population density.

IF that's the case then wouldn't such a 35 WSSM completely defeat the hunting regs?

Hey Steve, If you get a copy of the Rules and Regs, I "believe" it is limited to Straight Wall Cartridges normally used in Revolvers - or words to that effect.

It has dried up the normal supply of Marlin Lever Actions in 357Mag and 44Mag in KY.

I do not have a copy of the Rules & Regs in front of me. Perhaps one of the Hoosiers will hop in and spell it out clearly.

Best of luck to you.

I am so glad you ask.
I live east of Peru on the Wabash County line
just south of the Wabash River, I will try to post some pictures of the project. The cartridge is called a 358 Indiana Express by the CH Tool & Die Co. They are located in Mt.Veron, OH 43050. Ph# 740-397-7214. Their dies are expensive @ $117.00 for a 2 die set but are the best. The rifle is a Win mod 70 and I bought the 7mm WSM for the longer magazine. The WSSM magazine in the Winchester will work just a well. I wanted the extra lenght encase I changed the cartridge design. I took off the 7mm barrel and sent the action to Douglas for a 35 cal #3 sporter barrel. Ben Graber, a local machinist, did the chambering. The barrel lenght is 24".
I will give details of the chamber diameters
a little later. The rifle is finished at this point. To make the ammo I used 25 WSSM cases made by Winchester. These cases are thick in the neck but the chamber reamer cut the neck large enough to keep from having to ream or neck turn the case. I suggest very strongly to anneal the necks before expanding the case. It is important that you DON'T let the heat travel to the base of the case and soften it also. This will result in blown primers. The case is short and I stood mine in water so 1/2 inch of the neck was exposed and heated with a propane
torch in a darkened room till they were a dull red. Quenching isn't necessary but won't hurt. Now I am a retired tool & die maker so over the years I have made a lot of tools to aid in my reloading. To expand these cases I have what looks like a resizing die with a long tapered expander button. I made a set of these expanders over the years to do just this. This one runs from .25 to .375 in diameter. The lenght of the taper is 1.75. You set the travel of the case so it stops at about .34 dia on the mouth of the case. I lube the inside of the case to help reduce the friction and force needed to do this first step. I have a RCBS Rockchucker press and it doesn't take much effort to expand the case. I then use the resizing die from my 358 Indiana Express die set to finish the expansion and resizing of the case. The beauty of all this is the case needs very little fire forming. By buying the dies you don't have to cobble up a set of WSSM dies and buy differend expander balls. These dies also have a crimper in them which will be needed when we get to reloading for top performance. I will post this for now but I know there will be more needed

Steven

Lets see if I can answer several questions at one time.
1 The limit on case size is for the reasons you have stated. If you compare what they will allow you see that it is almost the same as a 50 S & W. There have been several rifles made from pistol cases but this is a rimless case which works better in a turnbolt instead of a singleshot or lever gun. I don't know the range
limits yet but feel it is a good 200 yd rifle.
For me it will be a lot more accurate than a handgun.
2. I have infront of me a letter from Linnea Petercheff, the Operations Staff Specialist with the Division of Fish and Game of the Department of Natural Resources which says the following. "The cartridge that you reference that is a .358 cal (a 25 WSSM case necked up to .358 cal) with a case lenght of 1.615 inches IS legal to use during this years deer firearms season" end quote. A drawing was sent for inspection of the cartridge along with the request of its legal statis and the reply is what we received in return.

Steve

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Steven R Gierke:
I live east of Peru on the Wabash County line
just south of the Wabash River, Steven

My buddy's name is Mike Rees, he would live near you as he lives in the western part of Wabash County near the county line, you may know him.

Thanks for the info on the cartridge also.

Cheers,
Andy

Complete Indiana regs are available online..

http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/3188.htm

Here's the general info....

http://www.in.gov/dnr/files/fw-hg_generalinfo.pdf

And the applicable part that pertains to this topic...

quote:

Deer Hunting Equipment

Legal Firearms

Rifles with pistol cartridges that fire a
bullet of .357-inch diameter or larger; have
a minimum case length of 1.16 inches; and
have a maximum case length of 1.625 inches
are legal to use only during the deer firearms
season. Some cartridges legal for deer hunting
include the 357 Magnum, 38-40
Winchester, 41 Magnum, 41 Special,
44 Magnum, 44 Special, 44-40
Winchester, 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 458
SOCOM, 475 Linebaugh, 480 Ruger,
50 Action Express, and 500 S&W.

Mike Rees is the fellow who stopped in one evening with his 358 IE and asked if we could make it go faster. Its all history now. He lives next door. The reply by 'wrongtarget' lists "some' of the cartridges. I don't think
the person who generated the list was aware of the 358 IE. If I learn I am in error I will post as soon as I can.

Not stating fact here, but to me it reads "pistol cartridges", cutting a rifle cartridge down doesn't seem to me to qualify, but that's just opinion based on the limited criteria they list.

quote:

Rifles with pistol cartridges that fire a
bullet of .357-inch diameter or larger;

Mike Bellm out here is originally from Illinois and they have the same thing...

Mike for those that know him does a lot of work with Encores and Contenders..

He has been developing and chambering a few cartridges that meet specs in Illinois, for Encores and T/Cs... for those of you that shoot those firearms, check out his web site..

quote:

Originally posted by Steven R Gierke:
Mike Rees is the fellow who stopped in one evening with his 358 IE and asked if we could make it go faster. Its all history now. He lives next door.

That's Mike. Just tell him the harder you pull the trigger the faster the bullet will go

quote:

Originally posted by Steven R Gierke:
...I have infront of me a letter from Linnea Petercheff, the Operations Staff Specialist with the Division of Fish and Game of the Department of Natural Resources which says the following. "The cartridge that you reference that is a .358 cal (a 25 WSSM case necked up to .358 cal) with a case lenght of 1.615 inches IS legal to use during this years deer firearms season" end quote. ...

Looks like you are ready to go with that letter.

How does it shoot? What Bullet will you be using?

It would seem that the .358 (9) x41 and the .375 X 41 would be great for meeting the law and having adequate deer killing power. roger

A fellow hunter has a Contender that is set-up for this cartridge. I don't know where he got
the barrel. He has neck thickness problems with his set-up. We talked with the makers of the Contender and they have run tests with this cartridge and WON'T chamber for it. They said it is a good round BUT it works at to high a presure for them to apply their lifetime warrantee.
We are just beginning load data test. At the moment it looks like the medium fast powders will be the ones that work best. More in a few weeks I hope. So far we have been able to achive 2700 FPS at the muzzle with about 2" groups at 100 yds with a 200 gr bullet.

The owner of the HANDLOADING FOR HUNTING web site solved that problem with a marlin guide gun in 45-70. He trimmed the brass to the proper length and IIRC, worked up a load using 300 gr. bullets. I think he said that he checked with a game warden in his area and the warden said he would allow it. Just another option I guess.
Paul B.

Steven good talking to you again

rnovi If they come up with stuip regs some one well always develop somethin to get around them.

I forget what wildcater marked his 224 barrels 230 to get around the limits on 224 cal rifles.

This souunds like a problem we have in our state. Up until this year the minimum caliber for some seasons was 38 (.380). This allowed the 38-55 but not the 375 Win. The rules changed this year to allow 35 caliber and up. I can't wait until someone realizes that the 9mm Luger and 38 Special is now legal.