Predictable accuracy

14 March 2013, 19:28

SR4759

quote:
Originally posted by Dan H:
Shootaway--

Thanks for the fouler/post fouling bench demo. Like so many things, I understand it is for your rifle and load.......

Good shooting comes with practice.....I appreciate your willingness to do it and to post the reality that results.

I think you're getting blasted here by a lot of guys that aren't posting their offhand targets

Good Shooting,

Dan

He is getting blasted because he is blaming the vertical dispersion is due only to fouling.
All he would have to do to prove himself wrong is shoot to 30 round off a benchrest.
He could also evaluate his shooting without any "fouling drop" with a 22 LR but he doesnt. He keep preaching some sort of fouling voodoo.

14 March 2013, 19:59

shootaway

A 22 is a 22 and a 308 is a 308.To assume every cartridge will behave the same way is just inexperience.

14 March 2013, 23:45

SR4759

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
A 22 is a 22 and a 308 is a 308.To assume every cartridge will behave the same way is just inexperience.

Shootaway,
To assume shots are dropping due to fouling is silly. You are the only person on the planet with that goofy theory.
You are just wasting time, money, ammo and barrels using your poor off hand shooting as an analytical tool.

Do you really think every .308 drops shots due to fouling?
Do you really think that a .308 bench rest rifle drops shots due to fouling?
Let's see tell me if the following drop shots due to fouling
just copy and paste yes or no by each one.
.22 LR
.22 Hornet
.222 Rem
6X47 benchrest
6mm REm
.243
.25/06
6.5 Carcano
6.5 Dutch
6.5X55
6.5 Arisaka
.270 Win
7X57 Mauser
7mm Rem Mag
.30 Herrett
.30-30 bolt gun and lever gun
.30-06
.303 British
7.65 Mauser
8X57 Mauser
.338 Win Mag
.35 Rem
.358 Win
.375 Win
.375 h&H
38-55 Win

Just tell me how many of them drop shots low due to fouling.

15 March 2013, 01:44

Matt Moore

Listen,

I am going to be polite and firm here: No one shoots better offhand than they do off the bench. You are not an exception to the rule.

You perceive your equipment (fouling in this case) could be causing problems, and I disagree. There are so many variables at play here that I cannot mention them all.

Join a highpower shooting club and you will improve and your fouling issues will be reduced significantly. Surprisingly, the more you shoot, the less significant the fouling will become. Not because there is less fouling but because you are practicing.

Cheers,

Matt

15 March 2013, 03:24

shootaway

Here is the sighting in target from todays shooting.
The rifle needed only three shots to settle in(orange circle).It then shot a 4 shot group in the center(ignore the small bullet holes originally on the target).
The conditions were cold(minus 9 celsius)and windy both combined to make steadying the rifle very difficult-muscle coordination was affected.
[URL=

]100yd sighting in target[/URL]
Here is the offhand target.
There are no shots dropping because the the bore was cleaned to the metal before shooting.
Next time out I will shoot a group off the bench after all the shots are fired offhand to see what effect the fouling had on accuracy.
Since I am out of brushes again,you will see the drop in POI on the targets I will post next time caused by heavy fouling.
[URL=

]offhand[/URL]

15 March 2013, 09:02

lavaca

Alright, I'll get baited into this one more -- last -- time. All targets exhibit spraying and praying, in my opinion. But I do see a high "group" albeit 6" vertical and 30" horizontal. And an "low group" approximately the same size. That suggests you have two very distinct positions on the stock.

Still sounds hopeless.

15 March 2013, 09:49

Cross L

Just out of curiosity--how do we know you are shooting these at 100 yds?

15 March 2013, 09:54

Jefffive

You need a slightly tighter choke on that shotgun...

15 March 2013, 20:26

Michael Robinson

quote:
Originally posted by Jefffive:
You need a slightly tighter choke on that shotgun...

Exactly! Looks like a few rounds of double ought buckshot at 40 yards. Maybe a 10 gauge magnum?

16 March 2013, 04:34

Mike Brooks

I'd say that he's got a problem with the barrel crown. He needs to run a 7/16 drill up there a bit to correct this terrible shooting!

16 March 2013, 07:19

Canuck

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:

Since I am out of brushes again,you will see the drop in POI on the targets I will post next time caused by heavy fouling.

exactly how quickly do wear out your brushes?

i'm very interested in seeing how and where your rifle groups from the bench before and after the offhand shooting.

16 March 2013, 08:37

shootaway

quote:
Originally posted by Canuck:
quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:

Since I am out of brushes again,you will see the drop in POI on the targets I will post next time caused by heavy fouling.

exactly how quickly do wear out your brushes?

i'm very interested in seeing how and where your rifle groups from the bench before and after the offhand shooting.

I use one for every cleaning session.

16 March 2013, 09:59

airgun1

I posted earlier about assessing the rifle and your ability. Many "fliers" are not fliers at all, but the true group size.

You have to remove as many variables as you can to assess a problem. You need to shoot from a steady bench off of bags. I hate to break it to you but you do not shoot offhand well enough to assess anything.

Now I will tell you this. Many people have used and still use the 308 Win in NRA Highpower competition. This is an 88 shot course of fire with 80 record shots and 8 sighter shots, 2 from each position. The last string is slow-fire prone done at 600 yds or a reduced scale target simulating 600 yards. These shots must be 1-1/2 MOA to be competitive. The bores are plenty dirty and almost no one cleans their bores during the match.

Get a quality air rifle and practice offhand. International Air Rifle is shot @ 10 meters with the 10-ring being a half of a millimeter. To be competitive at even the local level, you have to be shooting in the mid 90's, 95% for example. That is to be competitive, the winners will be higher than that.

You are throwing away too many serviceable brushes. If you use them wet with a copper solvent, simply rinse them off very soon after use with mineral spirits or similar and blow them dry (or air dry).

Moly coating is another variable. Many competitors tried it and most abandoned it. They knew how a gilded jacket acted and how to maintain the bore for optimum accuracy. A few relearned everything and switched to moly, but the vast majority figured it wasn't worth it. Now I am not saying moly is voodoo like cyro turned out to be, but moly requires rethinking bore care. It isn't worth it to me.
Edited poor spelling!

17 March 2013, 04:23

eagle27

Moderator, surely it is time to move this post to the shotgunning section or maybe even the funny shooting section. It is extremely hard to concentrate on the serious and informative posts on this site when I can't stay on my chair in front of the screen

17 March 2013, 04:34

lavaca

Airgun is exactly right. Back when I shot competition, I never cleaned a rifle during a National Match Course. Cleaned it at night before the next round, but not during the match.

And, I used .308 in service rifle competition, not bolt guns.

17 March 2013, 04:41

Cross L

quote:
Originally posted by Cross L:
Just out of curiosity--how do we know you are shooting these at 100 yds?

17 March 2013, 19:30

shootaway

I will try and shoot again today.
The rifle has been cleaned but not down to the metal.
I will post a target of the first sighting in shots again and see if there was a POI shift with the last sighting in target.

18 March 2013, 03:53

shootaway

Here is the sighting in target.
I first shot off the bench to see where the rifle was shooting and if it kept its POI from last session.
The 3 highest shots on the target are the first shots fire.
The rifle then went on to shoot a 4 shot group just over the bottom left orange square.
I kept on shooting and it shot the horizontal group to the left of the center circle.
It shows that the rifle is just a little to the left of the last sighting in target.
I then moved the rear sight to the right to prepare for offhand shooting.
It turns out I moved it too much to the right.
Everything was done in less than a half an hour so there was no time for perfection.
The three shot group to the right of the target-the two shots on each side of the right bottom orange square and the single shot above them in the orange circle make the three shot group fired after the offhand session.
This group shows how fouling has opened the group size and dropped the shots.
[URL=

]100yd sighting in[/URL]
Here is the offhand target.
It shows how fouling has opened up group size and started to drop shots.
[URL=

]100yds offhand[/URL]

18 March 2013, 04:30

Heat

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
quote:
Originally posted by Canuck:
quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:

Since I am out of brushes again,you will see the drop in POI on the targets I will post next time caused by heavy fouling.

exactly how quickly do wear out your brushes?

i'm very interested in seeing how and where your rifle groups from the bench before and after the offhand shooting.

I use one for every cleaning session.

That isn't much better then your barrel life is it?

Ken....

18 March 2013, 04:38

Fury01

This is very painful to share in Sir. There are many folks here willing to help is your desire was for help.
Fouling has a very small chance of being the problem. Very small. If it is the problem, you can simply not prove it by shooting offhand, or in freezing weather or howling winds, you will only expose yourself to freezing and other negative things most people would not enjoy.
Good luck.

18 March 2013, 04:51

shootaway

shootaway is rocking!

18 March 2013, 06:19

Cross L

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
shootaway is rocking!

in an alternate dimension-----------------------

19 March 2013, 03:12

SR4759

Ooooops They are dropping
You need a new brush ....

--------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------

19 March 2013, 05:01

N E 450 No2

shootaway

I have used Moly bullets in 223 and 308 competition rifles, and I did not have any problems, switching between the two or wandering groups after cleaning.

I am going to sugggest the following.

Take thatrifle to the range on a calm nice day, with a clean dry barrel.

Shoot 5 shots on ONE target.

Let the barrel cool for several minutes, then again shoot 5 rounds on a new target...

Repeat this 5 times.

Let the barrel totally cool.

Then on a new target, shoot a 20 round group, keeping track of where each shot hits, as the barrel warms up.

You must do this from a solid shooting position, on a calm day.

I think there might be something wrong with something in your system, scope bedding, bad barrel etc.

19 March 2013, 05:05

N E 450 No2

Also I hae shot some rifles several hundred rounds in a single day, ie AR 15/M16's up to 1000 rounds in a single day, AK 47's up to 1000 rounds in a day, and 308 Sniper and semiautos up to 600 rounds in a single day, with out cleaning, and NEVER had any accuracy problems...

Not saying you do not have a bad barrel that fouls badly, and then shoots badly, but something "bad is happening badly" that is for sure...

19 March 2013, 07:35

Mike Brooks

It's interestig that shitispants deleted his smart arsed comment to Tony.

19 March 2013, 08:49

Jefffive

quote:
Originally posted by Mike Brooks:
It's interestig that shitispants deleted his smart arsed comment to Tony.

Perhaps he's not quite as stupid as he seems...

I still think he should try a modified choke tube to tighten things up.

19 March 2013, 09:33

Mike Brooks

I think he should call Daisy and see if there's a recall on his Red Ryder.

22 March 2013, 02:54

shootaway

Temperature warming up a little-minus 2 celsius today.Wish I had better ground to stand on.
[URL=

]100yd target[/URL]

22 March 2013, 05:20

Jefffive

quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
Temperature warming up a little-minus 2 celsius today.Wish I had better ground to stand on.
[URL= ]100yd target[/URL]

I've seen better shooting from a boat...

22 March 2013, 06:59

waterrat

quote:
Originally posted by Jefffive:
quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
Temperature warming up a little-minus 2 celsius today.Wish I had better ground to stand on.
[URL= ]100yd target[/URL]

I've seen better shooting from a boat...

This thread is way past the pathetic phase,

STWY why are posting targets that look like that and demand an answer??? Are you serious?

22 March 2013, 09:08

lavaca

quote:
shootaway is rocking!

shootaway is rocking!

he's had us all.

23 March 2013, 18:43

sputster

I can't believe I scrolled all the way through these posts and looked at pictures with no discernible pattern to their shooting. I thought this was about foul shots being unpredictable.

23 March 2013, 18:52

scubapro

I had the same pattern as well with my Remington 700 Titanium in .30-06: After about 20 Shots the accuracy dropped fast and after cleaning it VERY WELL - it was OK again, foul shoots after cleaning...

It costed me tons of amo and hours at the range to find out, WHY the rifle once did not shoot well anymore...

It is always essential to know Your rifle well!

24 March 2013, 10:13

shootaway

quote:
Originally posted by scubapro:
I had the same pattern as well with my Remington 700 Titanium in .30-06: After about 20 Shots the accuracy dropped fast and after cleaning it VERY WELL - it was OK again, foul shoots after cleaning...

It costed me tons of amo and hours at the range to find out, WHY the rifle once did not shoot well anymore...

It is always essential to know Your rifle well!

I agree.

24 March 2013, 12:03

SR4759

Maybe you should call Gary L Anderson.
He knew his rifle. I think he could shoot 10 rounds into 10 CM at 300 meters off hand....

24 March 2013, 13:18

N E 450 No2

quote:
Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
shootaway

I have used Moly bullets in 223 and 308 competition rifles, and I did not have any problems, switching between the two or wandering groups after cleaning.

I am going to sugggest the following.

Take thatrifle to the range on a calm nice day, with a clean dry barrel.

Shoot 5 shots on ONE target.

Let the barrel cool for several minutes, then again shoot 5 rounds on a new target...

Repeat this 5 times.

Let the barrel totally cool.

Then on a new target, shoot a 20 round group, keeping track of where each shot hits, as the barrel warms up.

You must do this from a solid shooting position, on a calm day.

I think there might be something wrong with something in your system, scope bedding, bad barrel etc.

Shootaway, Please try this, and post each target, so we can see how the different groups develop.

Also check your action screws after each group, are they loosening up as you shoot???

24 March 2013, 15:03

calgarychef1

You guys are falling for it again. Shootaway is engaging in the ages old canadian pastime of leg pulling. There's nothing a Canuck enjoys more that walking into a room full of people, saying something controversial and then sitting back and watching the fireworks! I've been watching his antics here for a long time and he's a master at it, my father in law used to be pretty good at it too. He'll never admit it but when I saw his post about wearing the helmet for shooting that's when I knew for sure what was going on.

24 March 2013, 17:11

SR4759

quote:
Originally posted by calgarychef1:
You guys are falling for it again. Shootaway is engaging in the ages old canadian pastime of leg pulling. There's nothing a Canuck enjoys more that walking into a room full of people, saying something controversial and then sitting back and watching the fireworks! I've been watching his antics here for a long time and he's a master at it, my father in law used to be pretty good at it too. He'll never admit it but when I saw his post about wearing the helmet for shooting that's when I knew for sure what was going on.

If his goal is to be considered mentally incompetent to own and use a firearm he has succeeded well.

25 March 2013, 01:06

wolfhunter 2

Accuracy for some is unatainable for others some rifles only shoot poor at best its all in what you are happy with like the guy who hasent cleaned his lever gun for 15 years maybe he only shoots elk at 40 yds in dark timber or maybe he has never got anythihg but his gun still shoots when my 22-250 started shooting 2" groups i had it re barreled this is the onlyone I have that is finikey20 rounds they start flying clean it tight groups there is only a select few who can test loads off hand.