How many of you know how to predict the accuarcy of your rifle between cleaning sessions?
This picture tells a story.
A barrel behaves a certain way depending on the number of rounds through it.
Here we see that after cleaning the rifle took three shots to settle before it was able to group at 100yds.The three shot behind the tape were the foulers and the three shot group in the bullseye,behind the tape was the sighting in group off the bench.
I then shot offhand and the rifle did OK for about 20 shots before it became clogged with copper and started to drop the shots and open them up.
Sorry for the large offhand group.The cold weather froze my hand up and trigger control became almost impossible.
I am not showing the 6 or so shots that dropped just not to make the target look all that bad.
[URL= ]100yds offhand[/URL]
I have learned long ago that after 30 shots of molly coated 308 it is cleaning time or else I get shots spraying.

Why do you bring this on yourself?

because he's a retard...

what's wrong with paying attention to your rifle?

i have one rifle that's well over 500 rounds now and one that is over 300.
and a levergun that hasn't had the barell cleaned in 15 years with zero loss or gain of accuracy.

quote:

I then shot offhand and the rifle did OK for about 20 shots before it became clogged with copper and started to drop the shots and open them up. I started flinching like a blind, head shy dog

Fixed it for you.

That target gives me no useable information whatsoever. P.S. I've never seen a rifle that took 3 fouling shots.

Let me correct myself -- useful information -- you are stringing horizontally on offhand. Don't know why.

But it ain't copper fouling.

Don't know why, but this has my interest as only a serious problem can.

I disagree with Surestrike -- I don't think this is flinching - except perhaps for the high fliers. But flinches usually go low right. I think this is a stance issue.

The most frequent stringing problem I've experienced on offhand is vertical. If I have a horizontal stringing problem, it is usually in not getting a good natural point of aim. (Your feet are set wrong).

To cure this, aim at the target and once you are on, close your eyes for 10 seconds. When you open your eyes are you still on the target, or are you to the right or left. If you are off, adjust your feet and try again. Only once you get to a "natural point of aim" will you shoot well.

Just my 2 cents.

What's wrong with that target? roger

I think to learn about how your rifle behaves you need to remove as many variables as you can. That means benching it for most of us.

I agree that some rifles take longer to settle between shots than others. You can see the difference on a chronograph too, so in most rifles this makes a difference. If someone has never owned a rifle that took 3 shots they should be greatful. And bear in mind that sometimes if you get the barrel "too clean" it can take longer to settle. That said, I try to clean as best I can.

I suggest getting a cleaning regimen that works for you and stick to it and learn to know it.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Let me correct myself -- useful information -- you are stringing horizontally on offhand. Don't know why.

It was a windy day.Perhaps that.I am also out of copper brushes and could not give the bore a more better cleaning for a tighter and longer lasting accuracy.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
That target gives me no useable information whatsoever. P.S. I've never seen a rifle that took 3 fouling shots.

I am shooting moly coated bullets.It sometimes takes more depending if I cleaned the bore down to the metal or not.

That target looks normal for a Ruger Mini-14.

That grouping can tell me nothing that I can interpret other than you are shooting offhand and maybe tired.

There are some great books on high power rifle shooting, sling use etc.

Cheers,

Matt

Wind could be the culprit, but if so, it is because it is blowing you, not so much the bullet in flight. I still say cleaning is NOT the issue. I almost never use bronze brushes on a barrel. (I almost said never, but never is too absolute).

You guys are just feeding his self importance. He's obviously and idiot and doesn't have a FN clue...................................

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
because he's a retard...

It makes me wonder why someone would post a picture of a target like that?

He has never admitted to having even fired a .22 LR. He shoots like he started with a 458...


Perhaps he should benchrest that rifle for 30 rounds and see if the shots start "dropping".

In the mean time the laughter will continue.

Here is a good exercise for you. Do the same but do it all from the bench.

Put a target out and fire 3 "foulers"

Put a new target over it and fire 3 more

Put another target over them and fire 3 more

Do this for 21 shots.

The individual targets track progress

The bottom target is what size 21 shot groups you and your rifle shoot.

I should have another target for you tomorrow.I got my cases trimmed and resized.The weather looks good for tomorrow-hope to shoot well!

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Wind could be the culprit, but if so, it is because it is blowing you, not so much the bullet in flight. I still say cleaning is NOT the issue. I almost never use bronze brushes on a barrel. (I almost said never, but never is too absolute).

Yes the wind was moving me and not the bullets. Yes cleaning will make a world of a difference even at 100yds when many bullets are fired.I am going to buy a brush at the range and clean again just before I shoot.I am sure you will see the difference on the target.Stay tuned my shooting friends!

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Perhaps he should benchrest that rifle for 30 rounds and see if the shots start "dropping".

that would be the right test.

I did that many times years ago.When the barrel clogs up with copper that is what will happen-along with extremely large groups.I have it down to 30 rounds of 308 if I remember correctly.I would then take out my cleaning rod and JB compound and restore one hole grouping instantly.Like they say-been there done that long time ago! I do not know how long you would be able to go with uncoated bullets as I have never shot them in 308.I heard or read that you could not go that long.

I have an elderly friend that hunts with a Merkel 470 regularly in Africa and Aus top end and also shoots often at home (he lives on a sizeable property). This particular rifle has fired thousands of rounds and shoots very well.
The barrels only gets a proper solvent cleaned when I see him which is about once a year.

I think Muzzle jump due to fore-end holding pressure is more apart of your problem there.

To be fair on this topic I have not seen my Lott degrade in accuracy from copper fouling the way I have with my 308 or 270 or 300 with many rounds fired through it.The Lott was not consistant in its accuracy like the 308 was but there was no extreme deterioration at 100yds after an X number of rounds where fired through it.At 200yds however I noticed that only a super clean bore would be reliable for accurate shooting with the Lott.I honestly cannot tell when or if a big bore will lose its accuracy at 50 or 100yds.I know that the tightest groups will occur just after cleaning but that may be due to the barrel being coldest then.I have never fired thousands of rds through a big bore without cleaning after each 50rd session.I know that after a couple of thousand of rds there will be almost no rifling left to stablize the bullet and the diameter of the muzzle will be too large for any accuracy.Was thatcaused by cleaning? Some say yes some say no.On the other hand when shooting a 300WM you could forget about going 30 rds before all goes to hell at 100yds.

I have seldom shot that many rounds without a cleaning, but each of my rifles will go a varying number of shots before groups start to open up a bit, and in each case the amount of copper buildup is obvious when cleaning. But, what I have noticed is that as the barrel gets more fouled, pressures increase and velocities too....I don't notice bullets "dropping".

"Dropping" looks more like getting tired and/or anticipating recoil with your fore (left) hand.

shootaway

Try this. No matter what you clean your barrel with, clean it good.

Then after you are done, put a couple of wet patches of Prolix down the barrel. Then dry the chamber and the barrel out and shoot it.

I have discovered, that if I follow up a cleaning, with Prolix, my first round out, followed by the next rounds out, all hit the same place...

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:
I have seldom shot that many rounds without a cleaning, but each of my rifles will go a varying number of shots before groups start to open up a bit, and in each case the amount of copper buildup is obvious when cleaning. But, what I have noticed is that as the barrel gets more fouled, pressures increase and velocities too....I don't notice bullets "dropping".

"Dropping" looks more like getting tired and/or anticipating recoil with your fore (left) hand.

The bullets dropping are more noticeable out to further distances like 100 or two hundred and three hundred yards.This also occurs when a barrel becomes worn and has difficulty in stableizing bullets.I very often see shots off the bench strike a foot low at two hundred yards and then return to hitting bullseye after a good cleaning with JB or a strong copper solvent.If one puts hundreds of rounds of 308 through the barrel and is only removing very little of the copper when cleaning it will clog up and drop bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
shootaway

Try this. No matter what you clean your barrel with, clean it good.

Then after you are done, put a couple of wet patches of Prolix down the barrel. Then dry the chamber and the barrel out and shoot it.

I have discovered, that if I follow up a cleaning, with Prolix, my first round out, followed by the next rounds out, all hit the same place...

I do not know if you are reffering to shooting with moly coated bullets.There could be as little as just a couple or many more required to foul a barrel before it groups when shooting molly.This depends on how clean you get it to start off with and the way that particular barrel behaves.This is described by many top level competitive shooters and is easily observed by people shooting moly bullets with the 308.

Here are the targets from yesterdays shooting.Unfortunately I did not get to shoot in peace this time.There were too many shooters and it was past closing so when I did get to shoot I shot really quick snap shots.The snow mound I was on was not frozen but soft and I could net get good support from one of my legs.Still I thought I would post.I did not have time to properly adjust the zero off the bench.I screwed it up by raising the front sight too high.
Here is the sighting in target.
The shots are just starting to settle and group above the bottom right square after six or seven foulers.Never had I had a barrel that required so many.
I tried to move the sight up a bit and to the left and fired a shot to test but could not see where it hit and then moved the sight up further and started to shoot offhand.
[URL= ]off the bench-100yds[/URL]
Here is the 100yd offhand target.
[URL= ]100yds offhand[/URL]
You can see that after cleaning with a brush the shots grouped in such a way that they did not drop.They would have grouped tighter if conditions-time etc where better.
Here is a picture of the previous days target with the shots dropping because of copper fouling.
[URL= ]shots that dropped.[/URL]

You might want to invest in steel toes boots and tall ones too.

This is going nowhere fast because it is BS.

Matt

We seem to be working a 2' x 3' piece of paper rather thoroughly. Two things I'm sure of: 1) It's not a cleaning issue; and 2) I can't be of help.

From the look of your 100 yd. offhand target I think you should go back to shooting a 22 offhand until those groups improve. Your groups are so large it is impossible to analyze the problem.

You need to find the Inaccuratereloading Forum!!

...now that's funny!

Shootaway, please let me know if you ever come out to my country to do a spot of hunting, I'll ask our chamois and tahr to kindly puff out their chests as much as possible then you might just manage to get one of your shots into the killing zone

Shootaway--

Thanks for the fouler/post fouling bench demo. Like so many things, I understand it is for your rifle and load.......

Good shooting comes with practice.....I appreciate your willingness to do it and to post the reality that results.

I think you're getting blasted here by a lot of guys that aren't posting their offhand targets

Good Shooting,

Dan

Thanks Dan. I am going to try and shoot again today and post another target with all the settling-in or fouling shots.