Hi

If one was to take one of the older MS rifles - say a 1903 or 1910 which was in overall good to very good original condition - and have a set of claw mounts put on it with the front base sweated to the barrel and the rear base screwed to the side of the rear bridge (the only way of attachment as far as I know)how much would that detract from its collector value if at all?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

GG

Might get a better response down in the Gun Collecting Forum.

You have asked a very good question. Often I look at some fine old rifle and wish it was half way done so that I would not spoil its original look. There is such a rifle for sale right near me now.

I would wait until more members get online Monday here in the US. KurtC and others here are very expert at these old rifles.

I happen to have a 1950 MS with the original mounts somewhat modified. I suppose my collectors value is therefore not that high but the mount works and its as you describe it except that I think that the front factory mount also clamped around the barrel. I can't stand those side mounts that drilled holes into the left side of the receiver.

The topic I started with some pictures is HERE

I may look for the picture of that old MS thats for sale. Its a good expample, I think, of what your asking.

Here is a very old MS with mount bases of the period. Link



I am not sure how the front base is on or in there but I have seen some dovetailed in so deep that with the base out you can see the top locking lug on the bolt. I did not like that.

Here is an example. The rifle is not as old but it has no mounts. What to do? Link

I had a similar dilemna with my 280 Ross, and presently with a Winchester 54 I might buy. There are three approaches: leave it as it is, go "modern" and just put present day mounts and 'scope on it, put a contemporaneous, of the time, 'scope and mounts on it.

I favour the last. The problem is that whilst you might perhaps find the mounts, or a good gunsmith who can do an exact copy of them, you won't probably find the 'scope.

In Europe, in many cases, side mounts were the way a lot of these were done, or claw mounts. Or some other system removable in the field without tools. Very few of that period had the 'scope "permanently" mounted as per modern rifles in that a screwdriver or allen key was required to remove.

I think that if the job is done with parts of the period, or an exact copy of parts of the period then the value is only added to.

I had an adjustable rearsight, in the style of the time, fmade and itted to my Webley-Fosbery by an old Boss employee. You could not tell the difference between it an one done at the time. So its value was only affected positively.

I couldn't get it done with my Ross. Fabricating the mounts would not have been the issue, getting the optics was. So left it as was, it therefore wasn't a "practical" hill stalking rifle in these modern times that almost mandate a 'scope and so I sold it.

And that's the problem. Even if unused your 'scope will still be seventy-five years old optics. Now, if you could just take the 'scope tube and reglaze it, as it were, with new glass...that would be OK in my mind.

But 6.5 MS is a pretty anaemic cartridge anyway, so I probably would only now use it for close in, 50-100 yard, woodland stalking.

I'd also check the bore size and headspace on that MS if you haven't bought it. Some can be a little long in the tooth!

quote:

Originally posted by GG375:
Hi

If one was to take one of the older MS rifles - say a 1903 or 1910 which was in overall good to very good original condition - and have a set of claw mounts put on it with the front base sweated to the barrel and the rear base screwed to the side of the rear bridge (the only way of attachment as far as I know)how much would that detract from its collector value if at all?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

GG

to answer your question.
unless the mounts are of vintage or vintage replica design. it will destroy half of the rifles value.

You should contact Mark Cromwell at New England Custom Guns. His work is excellent . I had him make a set of mounts for my 1908 M-S in 8X56. Thanks...Bill.

Unless the rifle is stone mint, a high quality European scope mount, properly installed, will not detract from the value of the rifle. It won't really add to it either. It only makes it more or less appealing to individuals.

SEM (claw mounts) are fine for any period, but are the only acceptable style for pre-war models. Post-war can take advantage of the removeable side plate. Late models are factory drilled and tapped.

Stay away from the cheap aluminum mounts, made by Leupold, Pachmyar, Williams, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by KurtC:
Unless the rifle is stone mint, a high quality European scope mount, properly installed, will not detract from the value of the rifle. It won't really add to it either. It only makes it more or less appealing to individuals.

SEM (claw mounts) are fine for any period, but are the only acceptable style for pre-war models. Post-war can take advantage of the removeable side plate. Late models are factory drilled and tapped.

Stay away from the cheap aluminum mounts, made by Leupold, Pachmyar, Williams, etc.

stick With EAW if you are stone set on doing it.

If I do it I will use a proper claw mount sold by NECG - and have it properly installed by my gunsmith.

Model70man, any chance of a photo of your 1908 with this setup? What scope did you mount?

Cheers.

GG

quote:

Originally posted by GG375:
Hi

If one was to take one of the older MS rifles - say a 1903 or 1910 which was in overall good to very good original condition - and have a set of claw mounts put on it with the front base sweated to the barrel and the rear base screwed to the side of the rear bridge (the only way of attachment as far as I know)how much would that detract from its collector value if at all?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

GG

I believe it would all depend on who did the work. If you had it done by someone like New England Custom Guns, (or another highly reputable firm that is recognized as being qualified to do work like this on old Austrian and German sporting arms), I think it might actually enhance the value. (OOPS! I see Kurt has already commented. I believe that if anyone in the U.S. would know the answer, he is the person.......)

quote:

Originally posted by GG375:
Hi

If one was to take one of the older MS rifles - say a 1903 or 1910 which was in overall good to very good original condition - and have a set of claw mounts put on it with the front base sweated to the barrel and the rear base screwed to the side of the rear bridge (the only way of attachment as far as I know)how much would that detract from its collector value if at all?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

GG

As several here have already said, IF the new work is done well by a reputable shop, NECG is a good example, it should not impact the value of the M-S, and may improve the value. Just be sure that when the piece is sold, the appropriate set of scope mounts and rings are sold with the MS!! Otherwise, I would opt for an old Griffin & Howe side mount. They can still be found and will set you back about as far as the new NECG job, with the added benefit to Mannlicher purists that the G&H is an original mount. My scoped old model M-S rifles all carry G&H mounts.

LLS
Mannlicher Collector

Thanks sierra2

I don't think I've ever seen a G&H side mount. Would you mind showing a picture of one on one of your MS's please? Are these a 2nd hand only proposition or are they also available new?

Cheers.

GG

Here is foto of G&H sidemounts

http://www.griffinhowe.com/images/sidemount.jpg

Thanks igorrock - ugly things aren't they?

Cheers.

GG

I would also opt for a G&H side-mount.

IMHO the right modell of claw mount you find in NECG (RECKNAGEL) because all mounts which I have seen in older Mannlicher Schönauers are like Savage 99 picture.

You will find them in http://www.newenglandcustomgun.com/ and there "scope mounts"-->"German claw". The correct rear mount model is the bottom one.

Here is "the" link.

Click on mounts or swing mounts

http://mannlicherschoenauer.com/mannlicherfacts.htm

Nice photo igorrock. Sorry I didn't get back here sooner. Original G&H scopes are long out of production, but new ones can be found off and on at gun shows, Ebay, auctions, and so on. The quickest option is to go to NECG and buy one of their new versions of the G&H. This IS a heavy mount, but it locks up best and allows the use of your iron sights, something you loose if you install any other mount. The G&H is my numero uno for the older M-S.