Re: Well well! How about that!

08 October 2004, 18:44

B17G

The Deer probably died from laughing too hard that anyone would shoot at him at 700 yards with a 30/30.

That is as believable as the old Mexicano hitting him at 700 yds.

Of course don't discount devine intervention!

Cheers and Good ( lucky ) shooting
seafire

08 October 2004, 14:18

AnotherAZWriter

Quote:

"With open sights no less? Estimated range with the naked eye? No wind?"

OK Years ago I killed a cardinal at 175yards with a .22 magnum and a 4 power scope. What's your point?

Here is my point, and I suppose I risk being a blowhard by talking about it so much, but I happen to shoot at that exact distance (700 yards) at least weekly. Believe me, you can't even see my target unless you know where it is. A one mph wind blows a .300 RUM bullet about 3 inches. You have to add a few clicks winter to summer just for the difference in air density.

As for energy, allow me this example: a RUM makes about a 3 inch bullet splash on the rocks I shoot at at 700 yards. At 850 yards (where it has signficantly more energy than a .30-30 bullet) the bullet splashes are hardly bigger than the bullet diameter - bullet energy is way down.

If the old timer had that thutty thutty sighted in at 100 yards (hell, it shoots flat enough many think) he would have had to hold nearly 39 feet high to hit that buck - how you can even see the buck then is a good question.

But let's say the old guy does that - he is pretty good. He better also be a pretty good judge of range (don't all these old timers with thutty thutties have the latest laser rangefinders?), because his bullet is dropping 2 inches per YARD at 700 yards. That means if he thought the deer was 700 and he was really at 710 the bullet would be 20 inches low.

But let's assume he is that good. Care to guess how much even a 1 mph wind (a fairy princess farts harder than that) drifts that bullet? 14 inches. So even if the wind was 1/2 mph and he guessed 1 mph, he gut shoots that deer. But hey, he is superman, and he can do all of this.

The final nail in the coffin is time of flight - the bullet takes over 1.75 seconds to travel that far - enough time for that deer to jump if said fairy princess is nearby and farts.

08 October 2004, 14:28

spurrit

That shot smelled like..........BULLSHIT!

08 October 2004, 13:55

Oldsarge

Quote:

Excellent points about expansion and wind drift. I wasn't meaning to discount those factors, just commenting about how we do seem to get overwhelmed by velocity and energy figures. In my opinion, there are five factors that, in the right combinations, will achieve adequate bullet performance on game:
(1) bullet placement
(2) bullet construction (toughness, expansion, retained weight)
(3) bullet weight
(4) bullet diameter
(5) impact velocity

In the right combinations, these factors determine if the bullet will penetrate deep enough to reach the vitals and beyond, and cause sufficient tissue destruction in the process. The implication being that many mundane cartridges are adequate farther out than we might be led to believe, given all the current magnum mania.

My shoulder sure likes the mundane ones!

Close, IMO, but . . .
1. bullet placement
2. sectional density
3. penetration (see above)
4. bullet weight (see #2)
5. proper expansion

The great "miracle" cartridges of the past, the "ones that kill better'n they oughter" all look the same in their factory loadings. The 30/40 Krag, 7x57, 6.5 Mannlicher, etc, etc. were all loaded with very long-for-caliber bullets of conventional desigh and were driven at moderate velocities. They entered the animal's vitals without blowing up, expanded back about 1/4-1/3 of the way and slashed through the engine room in a straight line because of the long tail. After making a total hash of its organs, they exited the other side leaving a serious blood trail, just in case one was needed. The only thing they lacked was a stretched string trajecory for those who just couldn't either get close enough or weren't patient enough to stalk to within 225 yards. Besides, steady working stiffs don't make for good reading in the gee-whiz columns in the gun mags.

Another working stiff,

05 October 2004, 11:17

skl1

Dogger,

I've often had the same thought; folks are in Africa killing dangerous game with .454's and less, which are grossly "underpowered" even next to mild rifle cartridges routinely listed as unsuitable for the task.

You should edit the title so people know what the thread's about. Of course, it's ultimately doomed to turn into an argument on the adequacy of the .45-70 for dangerous game.

05 October 2004, 11:00

Doc

I watched a guy kill a Coues whitetail in southern Arizona in 1994 with a 30-30 at 297 yards. Hit it right behind the shoulder and it never moved exept for straight down.

I couldn't believe it.

I do not remember the bullet wt.

06 October 2004, 02:51

Savage99

In addition, you have to ask "will that bullet exand at all at 1500 FPS?". I don't know, but to use that energy at all, at least a little expansion is required.

Flat nosed bullets are quite effective at less than 1500 fps. That range is too far however for that load. The wind drift alone must be measured in feet!

06 October 2004, 02:31

<eldeguello>

Quote:

You've still got to put the bullet in the right spot ! Energy figures dont mean a hell of a lot unless you're talking about the same cartridge with different bullets.

In addition, you have to ask "will that bullet exand at all at 1500 FPS?". I don't know, but to use that energy at all, at least a little expansion is required.