Guys.

Used to be fit with much more muscle mass on the legs.

Couple decades later and walking on steep hills causes increasing pain (jumpers knee??)esp during the descents.

What can I do to minimise this - or can I look forward to curtailing my activities as the years progress?

Any training suggestions?

Rgds Ian

Knee pain can be caused by a few things, and I'm no expert.

There's meniscus pain, the cartilage between the bones has detriorated, and the frayed (sp?) ends get pinched between the bones, causing pain (that's how a therapist explained it long ago). They do heal, but very very slowly. I had problems on the rear, and that took about two years to go away. They are still sensitive, but the pain is less. No training cure there, only surgery if the pain is realy bad.

Then there are the ligaments, meant to keep the joints stable. They can stretch and rip and cause mucho pain.

I THINK that there is also the ends of the leg muscles, where they attach to the joint. E.g. there is one that runs on the outside of the joint, from the hip down, that attached to the lower leg. I seem to have a problem with that one.

I can climb for a few hours without problems, but as fatigue sets in so does the pain. To the extent that getting down is a real torture. You can laugh but yesterday I actually did the last descent back to the truck (steep down some 200 feet) walking backwards!!

I hope to get these muscles and attaching tendons stronger by cycling. I've been doing one-hour trips, I'll try to get longer trips in, and maybe also a few more where I concentrate on steeper sections repeatedly.

In another thread, Canuck and I discuss how orthotic inserts can help support your feet, and from that alleviate any pressures in the knee joint. That was another issue that I recently discovered. The insoles keep my achilles straight, and the knees actually do feel better. However, it may take a few months or more for all the symptoms to dissappear, if they ever will. I hope the dilligent training will help. I will definetly get me an exercise bike for indoors to help me over the winter months.

F.

Keeping your joints strong from the get go is what I shoot for. Hence I do alot of technical hiking and hard trail running throughout the year. I also am very dedicated to a weight training regiment for my entire body. Lunges are my favorite leg exercise because they literally work every last muscle in your legs. You don't even need to use weights do do them, rather concentrating on proper form and higher repitition.

But since you already are experiencing some pain/discomfort I would first examine your shoe or boot fit. This is often overlooked as a cause of joint pain but can have a major influence on having or not having it and is critical for backcountry mobility. A good pair or custom orthotic insoles also may help you. My dad started using a pair a few years ago and they completely alleviated all foot and knee pain that he was having. A pair or trkking poles or walking staff may help as well.

Lastly I would supplement with a glucosamine and chondroitin formula to help keep your cartilage, ligaments, and tendons nourished and able to regenerate.

I weight train as well, but the glucosamine and chondroiton supplements really changed the pain in my knee. Years of athletics almost made hunting too painful, but now I'm better than ten years ago.

Trekking poles will minimize/eliminate the knee pain you are describing. Get a pair, and you'll never hike without them again

I think the first thing to do,is go see your doctor to determine what the problem is - cartilage damage, arthritis, muscle strain etc.

Providing exercise will not add to the damage, I think, based on annecdotal information, excercise to build the leg & knee muscles would help. Swimming is, I think one of the best because it does not put too much load on the joints, nor 'shock' like jogging on hard surfaces, and is very good for the cardio - vascular system.

Coupled with this, a diet to loose any extra pounds you may have. This will take the load off your knees.

Athletic supports - the ribbed bandages you see rugby forwards wearing would also help. I believe "Seven Seas" castor oil (?) capusules help with the aching joints. I think the packaging has a picture of a deep sea fisherman on the front. But I could be confusing this with Fisherman's Friend - the cough / sore throat lozenge.

In addition to the good advice above, if indeed "jumpers" or "runners" knee...I wonder if a brace would provide any relief? I have seen it written by some that they wear a brace on their knees when hiking and/or packing heavy loads.

http://www.return2fitness.co.uk/Supports_And_Braces/Kne...orts/mcdavid419-knee

Agree it would be a good idea to have it checked out, preferably by sports injury specialist/therapist, to determine what exactly the cause is.

Purchase the book entitled

The Slow Burn Fitness Revolution by Hahn

Read it a few times so you understand it, and then follow it.

As a supplement to help your joints sustain themelves, the use of chondroitin/glucosamine is essential as you age. The best form I have found also contains Perna Canniliculus and MSM. It really makes a difference.

quote:

Couple decades later and walking on steep hills causes increasing pain (jumpers knee

Same problem here too. I have worked in steep and rugged terrian hiking miles a day and I grew up in the mountains too. I am 6'8" and 260 pounds so I carry a lot of weight on them too. Make sure you keep as much muscle as you can and keep them moving. I also use a product called TRAUMEEL® to help the joints and releive pain. It works for me, but I was a skeptic when my doctor recommended it.

These supplements, are they over-the-counter stuff or prescription? Any negative side-effects?

Frans

Hi guys
as a doctor,I can confirm that Traumeel is effective in removing inflamatory products from joints but,try this first and most often you can clear the cause.Berberis homaccord.It irons out kinks in the connective tissue,giving you the correct clearance in the joints.Good for kidneys and lower back pain too.Actually,it is most often not nessesary to use anything else.Give it time though,its not a painkiller,it gets to the cause``tappets too tight´´

Everything I`ve ever done in the last 43 years, I`ve hurt my right knee doing it. Football, bikes etc. I even cracked the knee cap straight across from like 8 o`clock to 4 o`clock. My knee hurts all time pretty much, here`s what I recommend. Suck it in. You have put up with it this long, keep doing that, sit around and it`1l get worse. Lose weight, this is the most important thing of all, this WILL lessen the pain. Watch one of those sickening medical documentaries where they do a knee reconstruction, I garrantee it`ll be 100% better after that, no worries at all..

quote:

Berberis homaccord

How is it used? Are there side effects from long term use?

Thanks.

crowrifle
Berberis homaccord has no side effects.It was designed to promote healthy kidney and adrenal function.Its positive effects on connective tissue ,hamstrings,calves and frontal headaches were so good,that now we use it for that.Its made by Heel and the dose is 10 drops 3 or 6 times per day depending on how bad you think you are
boet

Boet - many thanks for that - did I mention that I ruptured an achilles tendon a couple years back? Substancial scar tissue can be felt around the rupture/tear sight - though this does seem to be reducing as time passes.

Is there a probability that Berberis Homaccord could assist in repair of this injury - or am I looking at surgery as the only real way forward?

Rgds Ian

Ian
Berberis ha will certainly reduce tension on your tendon but I suggest you rub the area twice a day with Zeel T ointment.It will soften scar tissue and ganglions will almost disappear. Good stuff....even on sailors hands....wont hurt to rub it on your knees also
boet

My regime includes exercise: lunges,light squats,stretching(very important),upper body and abdominal work is important as well,cause the body is wholistic unit where one thing effects the other, so you need to deal with everything in a balanced way.
Maybe you have uneven muscle development and need to work on it. Knee pain can also come from tight hamstrings.
The glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM formulas are good. You need to make sure you have chondroitin in the formulas, because that is the protein building block of cartlidge. The glucosamine is more or less just an antinflamatory.
another very good antiinflamatory is fishoils. A very potent one is Blackmores LYPRINOL. a very high concentration extract from greenlip muscles. But If you go with the more std fishoils,they have additional cardiovascular benefits(omega3s'). There are also other good natural antinflamatories such as Devils Claw and Boswellia.
A cheaper option to Chondroitin(shark cartlidge) is simple gelatine(beef or chicken cartlidge).The good thing about thehealthshop formulas is that they(some) have minerals&enzymes for better absorbtion.
I agree with reducing excess weight,using treking poles & orthonics.
Any error in your feet, has the steeple effect,the problem becomes magnified as you go up the column of the body and we start twisting/tilting our hips shoulders,neck, to compensate, but the pain can show up anywhere(knees?) along the line.

FWIW, my mother (mid 60's) has various joint pains due an active lifestyle (shoulder, ancle, knees are all pretty screwed up), and has been using Glucosamine for some years with good effects. However, she recently started using Lyprinol, and after a month noticed a MAJOR differance. She has a few friends who have found the same thing with Lyprinol. So it's definately worth a try. But as with many things, you have to continue eating the stuff if you want the effects to keep lasting. So only a month or two with these pills aren't going to make a permanent change.

Knee pain sucks!!! I only walk uphill, walking down is hard on the old knees

Actually people with constant and severe joint pain should get tested for hemochromatosis. It's the most prevalent heritary disease in the population. It causes a build up of iron in the body and causes huge problems if not treated. Treatment is simple-bloodletting. Doctors rarely test for it, because it's so easy to blame the symptoms on other factors. Sooo if you have very "bad joints" get yerself tested.

the chef

About Twentyfive years ago I had orthoscopic knee surgery on my left knee. I did great for ten years or so then the hills and sports caught up with me and I was looking at another surgery which I really didn't want so I started walking in a olymic pool that was a little over waist deep. I walked foward down the pool and backward coming back. I would walk one hour a day. In about three months my knee pain was gone I keep walking for two years. My knee has been pain free since.

Dr B

Hi Ian. I use Glucosomine a lot, and find it helps a fair bit. Can't speak for the rest of these solutions, as I've never heard of them. I'm going to look around for them though, and give them a whirl (assuming my doc gives me the go ahead). Get Joe to carry all the heavy bits, that would help the knees a lot - dan

Here's the website for LYPRINOL btw.

I used two elastic knee braces. No metal stays. I wore them on a backpack dall sheep hunt in the NWTs. It stabilized my knees I thought which might have kept me from taking too bad a mis-step. It was the toughest hiking/climbing I ever did, but the knees felt fine.

Dan

Thats the problem - Joe is usually the load I'm carrying!!

Erik

Many thanks - will look further on that one as well.

Rgds Ian

I'm a Harley rider , and outdoorsmen , I purchased a DP Airgometor from Sears years ago to exercise my legs and knees as I have osteo arthritus , I get a bottle of Schiff Joint Care from Sams Club 200 per bottle only need 1 a day, I'm 64 works for me ! www.schiffvitamins.com Glucosamine Hydrochloride , MSM 1500mg each .

I'l give the berberis a shot.

College football, wrestling and baseball 30 years ago are catching up with me. Had cartiledge in my left knee removed 30 years ago, before they worried about things like ACL's (I have no outside ACL, or whatever you call it, in my left knee).

Should have worn a helmet!

I use a knee brace, elastic, that provides extra heat to the joint. That helps until you take it off. Motrin is great, and once in a while I go for the endocin prescription.

I didn't believe my friends that told me the warranty runs out at 50. I turned 50 this past January. And they were right!

I have arthritis in my feet, and to a lesser extent in my knees, especially the right knee. I strongly agree with those who tell you to see your doctor first to find out just what is causing the pain. With me, rather painful arthritis in my feet, and subsequent surgery on both, was causing me to walk on the outside edge of my feet more than God intended. This in turn caused my knees to torque in a way they weren't intended, causing the arthritic bone spurs I know have on my knee caps. Good (read "expensive") custom orthotic inserts for my shoes, and very stiff-soled hiking boots have helped greatly with the foot pain, which has also reduced the knee pain an awful lot.

I still end up pretty sore after a week of chasing elk around the mountains and have resigned my self to probably not being able to do a sheep hunt when I'm 70 (only 24 years off!) and there is at least some discomfort in my knees and feet all the time, but it is all manageable-- except maybe the no geriatric sheep hunting part. Good luck!

I found this in the back pages of a 'quality' broadsheet Sunday newspaper today.

I hope it may be of help, or some of our Australian cousins may have more information.

Product = Australian Doctors 'miracle' "Knee Strap"

From the advert:

Uses advanced sports therapy technology

Supports the patella and lessens strain on the knee cap while helping to relieve the pain and swelling associated with terrible knee pain.

Enjoy twalking again. Stop the agony of climbing stairs.

The UK marketting people / purchase site is

www.hss.uk.net

For what it is worth etc.

Glucosomine is wonderful !!

now if you could get your doctor to prescribe you some Nandrolene Decanate prior to your trip it would make all your joints feel fantastic....................like you where 20 years younger.

Well, I got the "Superfeet" inserts in the shoes now, which seem to have relieved some of the day-to-day agony. Poor arches apparently stressed the knees. That leaves the IT-band (says the therapist). Supposed to move freely over the thigh muscles, but kinda grown together in my case. Luckily he has all sorts of torture available to break it loose. At least sheep season is still far off.

In the mean time I find myself putting in some serious aerobic sessions. Since I don't run (meniscus) I sort-of shuffle uphill (trying to minimize impact of setting feet down), log some time on a stepper (my daughter wanted one, I doubt if the cheap thing will hold together for long), and try to bike whenever the ice is off the roads. So far no big issues with the knees.

I'm looking forward to this season!

Frans (off to SCI soon!)

Those compression knee wraps work great, my knee's are fine but I wear them anyways just in case.

IanF:

Hindu Squats---just a fancy name for good ole fashioned deep knee bends. This therapy (exercise) has completely eliminated my knee pain. Here is the exercise and regimen: feet shoulder width apart. Bend your knees and go all the way down, as far as you can, might have to lift up on your toes abit as you get all the way down, then raise up again. Keep your back relatively straight. Put your arms out in front of you as you go down, then down to your sides as you raise up. Try not to steady yourself by hanging on to anything.

Do these squats 3-5 times per week. Do as many as you can do in one sitting until your leg muscles are tired. Increase reps as you are able.

Also, although the goal is to be able to balance yourself going up and down. If you can't do this initially, you can steady yourself by placing a hand on a nearby wall or table.

My wife and I started doing these deep knee bends and within a few days it completely eliminated chronic knee pain for both of us.

Jordan

IanF,I don't know your situation(age,fitness,etc...)but if you are not in shape and just begun jogging,then your legs will hurt until your body adapts.If you are in shape and jog regularly for at least a year or two and your legs still hurt try dietting(if you are overweight) and if they still hurt then there might be a problem.

1. get in shape, lessening the amount of work (weight) put on the knees is imperative

2. take plenty of vitamins

3. eat motrin

4. rest when done walking/hiking ( ICE helps....I know you can't sometime use the "ice" component, but compression and at least elevation will reduce swelling.

P.S. when backpacking I usually eat a handload of pills in addition to my normal medications:
2 Vit C, 2 multi Bs, 1 E ( yeah I know not needed, but I like to jackoff a lot), 2 Motrin/ibuprofen, 2 Immodium in the AM and the same in the evening (+/- the Immodium)

Ian,

I damaged my cruciate ligament in a road traffic accident in 1985 the result being that I also experienced joint pain in my right knee. I put up with it for years until about four years ago when I went for a diagnosis with a consultant orthopaedic surgeon. Ten days later I had an arthroscopy performed. I can't say I'm absolutely 100% and back to normal but compared to how I was I feel like Steve Austen and stalking rarely presents a serious problem to me now.

I would recommend that you take similar advice and if you have a similar diagnosis I can whole heartedly recommend the op.

Regards,

Tim

quote:

Originally posted by robthom:

Coupled with this, a diet to loose any extra pounds you may have. This will take the load off your knees.

Take off the weight.... If you think it is not very important, pick up 25lb anything, and you can feel it in your knees right away. So get rid of 25 lb and you will feel better.

Yes, well, that is fine when you weigh 250 lbs to start with. I only weigh 135 lbs. There is not a lot to loose! ;-)

Frans

Yes that does tend to complicate matters, Sorry about that.

Terry

simple solution - helicopter