44 rem.mag with 180gr.

14 February 2005, 01:18

mo.shooter

Why does it seem everybody tries to out the<BR>big bullets on . I load 23gr.of 2400<BR>and 180gr. jhp. seems to work much better<BR>drops deer in there tracks more speed bullet<BR>works well what do you guys think?Could this be just medo some think bigger is always betterless recoil more speed why notShoot 250gr. just to say you did

14 February 2005, 01:38

johnch

I get much better accurecy with Hornady 240 gr XTP bullets .
MV is not everything ,accurecy and penatration is very importan.
I like the results I get out to 100 yds.

14 February 2005, 02:01

Dan in Wa

Don't you have fairly big whitetails in No. Missouri? If so I think a heavier bullet would be the better choice. Can't always get the perfect broadside shot. 180's do not shoot that great in all guns either. Just my $.02 worth.
DAN

14 February 2005, 04:46

Greg K

The 200 gr Nosler is a good bullet too. Took my biggest deer with this bullet.

14 February 2005, 05:04

bfrshooter

The 180 is WAY too fragile. Sure, it kills good with perfect hits but can come apart on a bone and sure will not get deep enough with a quartering shot. The .44 does not come into its best until you get to 300 grs. and up. There is almost no difference in recoil with the heavier boolits. Accuracy also increases with the heavy boolits.
I have been disappointed even with the 240 XTP's as far as penetration goes and would not hunt with less then the 300 gr. XTP. It is just as accurate as the 240.
I switched to hard cast 320 LBT style boolits and will never go back. I do not trust the light weight bullets at all. Sort of like using a 110 gr. bullet in the 30-06 for deer when the 150 to 165 is ideal. It will kill like lightning, blow all the meat to mush, Make the deer bloodshot from head to tail, but it can also blow up on the surface and you can lose the deer to a lingering, terrible death. Either way, you don't have anything to eat.
You have to get realistic when hunting and use the proper bullets. Save those 180's for tin cans.
I can drop a deer in it's tracks with a .22, but would you hunt deer with one?

15 February 2005, 03:15

Taurus Bill

I too vote for the Hornady 240 XTP.

15 February 2005, 03:30

J_T_AMMONS

Always get my best accuracy with heavier bullets, so I shoot them almost exclusively. In my hunting handguns, my hunting, carry ,and "plinking" loads are often all the same load.
Jason

15 February 2005, 06:13

MS Hitman

I'm with bfrshooter on this. I recommend a minimum weight of 240 grains for the .44 mag loads. I have however, had better results from the XTPs than he has.

If you must shoot a 180 grain bullet, make it a .35 caliber and you should have a very adequate penetrator. Yes, I think it's just you.

15 February 2005, 16:53

wheelgun101

I like the 240 xtp but I also like the hard cast 325gr from cast performance.

15 February 2005, 21:44

Me_Plat

I may be wrong but didn't Lee Jurras of Super Vel use the 185 gr 44 Mag load to successfully take a lot of various size game?

Maybe he was wrong. Maybe the bullet was heavily constructed for a 185 gr.

If I am correct wonder how he did it?

16 February 2005, 00:11

Outback

Lee Jurras used a 180Gr. bullet that was constructed with a .035" thick jacket and a core of 5% antimony. The meplat was .190 with .040 lead exposed. This bullet was designed to penetrate and expanded very little.

This data was taken from a 1978 .44 Mag magazine.

16 February 2005, 02:58

Swede44mag

quote:
I too vote for the Hornady 240 XTP.

The 240 XTP works for me also.

16 February 2005, 03:18

Greg K

quote:
Originally posted by bfrshooter:
The 180 is WAY too fragile. Sure, it kills good with perfect hits but can come apart on a bone and sure will not get deep enough with a quartering shot. The .44 does not come into its best until you get to 300 grs. and up. There is almost no difference in recoil with the heavier boolits. Accuracy also increases with the heavy boolits.
I have been disappointed even with the 240 XTP's as far as penetration goes and would not hunt with less then the 300 gr. XTP. It is just as accurate as the 240.
I switched to hard cast 320 LBT style boolits and will never go back. I do not trust the light weight bullets at all. Sort of like using a 110 gr. bullet in the 30-06 for deer when the 150 to 165 is ideal. It will kill like lightning, blow all the meat to mush, Make the deer bloodshot from head to tail, but it can also blow up on the surface and you can lose the deer to a lingering, terrible death. Either way, you don't have anything to eat.
You have to get realistic when hunting and use the proper bullets. Save those 180's for tin cans.
I can drop a deer in it's tracks with a .22, but would you hunt deer with one?

The deer I hunt aren't wearing body armour so the 200-240 gr 44 cal bullets work just fine, even on quartering shots. Of course I don't take "Texas Heart Shots".

16 February 2005, 03:20

TBEAR99

I'm with bfrshooter on this. I recommend a minimum weight of 240 grains for the .44 mag.I use garret 330 hardcast with awesome success i carry this in bear country although never shot a bear as to date.when hunting near home on the farm i use 250gr bullets. my 2 cents

16 February 2005, 22:23

buckeyeshooter

In my early youth I used the Federal 180gr on a Whitetail. Shot him at (no kidding) 10 feet away through the rib cage. The darn thing ran 75 yards and layed down. When I approached, he got up and ran again. When I came out of the woods into the corn field, I was just in time to see a nice Amish fellow loading him into his wagon. From that day on ---- I use 240 grain XTP's or better yet my slug gun (10ga Sp-10). You can kill them with 180's but you can't drop them with 180's. In my area a deer that runs 200 yards will be tagged by somebody else.

17 February 2005, 22:57

RJM

I've only killed one deer with a .44 Magnum and used a 180 grain Sierra with 31 grains of H110 in a Ruger Redhawk 7.5". Deer was a 6 point buck walking in on me at 30'....one shot and he was down. Bullet took him right in the chest and came out behind the last rib. Turned the heart to Jello.....

Bob

18 February 2005, 02:35

bfrshooter

I am not saying the 180 will not kill deer, but when I read of someone only killing one deer with it I have to wonder about the experience of the hunter. I use nothing but revolvers for deer and have taken a great deal of them with all sorts of bullets. I use .44's, .45's 45-70 and .475 Linebaugh. My experience says to use heavy bullets and get complete penetration no matter what is hit or the angle of the shot. I do not take Texas heart shots but am confident the boolit will go all the way through. Makes too much of a mess though. Yes, you can kill deer with any handgun from 9mm up. They can drop with any of them but after helping to find many deer for neighbors using 7mm and 300 mag rifles (many were not recovered after miles of tracking) I think none of you know how really tough deer can be. I remember a small doe shot with 11 shots from 12 gauge shotgun slugs before she gave up when I lived in ohio. The guy had mangled hamburger. If it wasn't for snow she would have died somewhere from the first shot. We recovered a buck shot in the ham with a 7mm mag that had a hole through it so big you could stick your head through the back of him. He went over a mile and quit bleeding in 100 yd's.
A survay was taken some years ago of handgun hunters using .357 and .44 mag revolvers. It was found that 50% of the deer hit with the .357 were lost.(good hits in the chest cavity) The .44 had a 100% recovery. It is a good killer but using those light bullets will eventually cost you deer. Maybe the buck of a lifetime.
If you are afraid of recoil and just HAVE to use those light bullets, get a rifle and leave the revolver at home. I won't argue with anyone, they will find out the hard way.
Talking about recoil, the .44 is nothing even with the heaviest boolits. My friend wanted to shoot my .475 and he held it like he does his .44. He split his forehead open and gave himself a terrible black eye. He didn't like my 45-70 either.
I have over 200,000 heavy loads through various .44's and when I hear someone say it kicks, what do you think my response will be?

18 February 2005, 03:03

Flippy

quote:
Originally posted by bfrshooter:
I am not saying the 180 will not kill deer, but when I read of someone only killing one deer with it I have to wonder about the experience of the hunter. I use nothing but revolvers for deer and have taken a great deal of them with all sorts of bullets. I use .44's, .45's 45-70 and .475 Linebaugh. My experience says to use heavy bullets and get complete penetration no matter what is hit or the angle of the shot. I do not take Texas heart shots but am confident the boolit will go all the way through. Makes too much of a mess though. Yes, you can kill deer with any handgun from 9mm up. They can drop with any of them but after helping to find many deer for neighbors using 7mm and 300 mag rifles (many were not recovered after miles of tracking) I think none of you know how really tough deer can be. I remember a small doe shot with 11 shots from 12 gauge shotgun slugs before she gave up when I lived in ohio. The guy had mangled hamburger. If it wasn't for snow she would have died somewhere from the first shot. We recovered a buck shot in the ham with a 7mm mag that had a hole through it so big you could stick your head through the back of him. He went over a mile and quit bleeding in 100 yd's.
A survay was taken some years ago of handgun hunters using .357 and .44 mag revolvers. It was found that 50% of the deer hit with the .357 were lost.(good hits in the chest cavity) The .44 had a 100% recovery. It is a good killer but using those light bullets will eventually cost you deer. Maybe the buck of a lifetime.
If you are afraid of recoil and just HAVE to use those light bullets, get a rifle and leave the revolver at home. I won't argue with anyone, they will find out the hard way.
Talking about recoil, the .44 is nothing even with the heaviest boolits. My friend wanted to shoot my .475 and he held it like he does his .44. He split his forehead open and gave himself a terrible black eye. He didn't like my 45-70 either.
I have over 200,000 heavy loads through various .44's and when I hear someone say it kicks, what do you think my response will be?

Yep. If you are recoil sensitive, buy a smaller cartridge. 240g is the lightest bullet I would hunt with in my 44mag, 300g is better.

A wise old hunter once told me:

"There's all kinds of wounded, but only ONE kind of dead."

18 February 2005, 07:56

skid2964

The Sierra 240 JHC works great but I still prefer the Hornady 300 XTP ...

I shot one deer with a 180gr load a long time ago, in the back of the head. I expected the face to be gone. You could not even tell it had been shot other than the fact it was dead! it was hard to even find the bullet hole. Since then, I use 240+ bullets ...

18 February 2005, 23:15

Flippy

quote:
Originally posted by skid2964:
The Sierra 240 JHC works great but I still prefer the Hornady 300 XTP ...

I shot one deer with a 180gr load a long time ago, in the back of the head. I expected the face to be gone. You could not even tell it had been shot other than the fact it was dead! it was hard to even find the bullet hole. Since then, I use 240+ bullets ...

Yep. 300g XTP, good choice.

26 February 2005, 07:04

MrHawg

For those of you shooting 320 gr LBT's... What kind of powder charge are you using? After seeing what a 320 grain Cast Performance bullet does to a bison out of a 444 marlin, I kind of want to try them in my 44.

26 February 2005, 23:25

bfrshooter

mrhawg, 21.5 grs. of 296 and a standard Fed 150 primer is the most accurate. I get groups at 50 yds of 1" or less from every Ruger I have tried it in.
The strange thing is the standard primer. I tried magnum primers many times and the groups always triple in size with the .44 and .45 Colt. I have worked thousands of loads with them with the same results. I now shoot a .480-.475 Linebaugh and it has to have magnum primers. The .357 also likes the magnum primer. I have never figured this out so I stay with standard primers in the .44 and .45.
I use Hornady dies and have a very tight boolit pull along with a decent crimp. I can see the grease grooves through the brass so the primer is not blowing the boolit out of the case before the burn starts. One of those strange things I can't explain. Try both and get back to me.
21.5 is not a max load but shoots the tightest.

28 February 2005, 18:39

skid2964

quote:
Originally posted by MrHawg:
For those of you shooting 320 gr LBT's... What kind of powder charge are you using? After seeing what a 320 grain Cast Performance bullet does to a bison out of a 444 marlin, I kind of want to try them in my 44.

17.0gr of No.9 is accurate in everything I've tested it in.

01 March 2005, 18:39

jro45

I think the 180gr bullet is all you need to kill a deer and yes some people use the 22 cal. to hunt and kill deer. I don't know how accuracy
is beyond 50 yds. That all I've shot them to. Will have to see what it is at 100 yds.

01 March 2005, 22:48

Flippy

quote:
Originally posted by jro45:
I think the 180gr bullet is all you need to kill a deer and yes some people use the 22 cal. to hunt and kill deer. I don't know how accuracy
is beyond 50 yds. That all I've shot them to. Will have to see what it is at 100 yds.

I know a person who has killed MANY ELK with a 22LR pistol at close range. He is Native American and on the reservation, it is legal. For the rest of my state, it is not.

I am sure most if not all species on the planet have been taken with below minimum cartidges. However, a wise old hunter told me, and I have said many times on these forums:
"There's ALL kinds of wounded, but only ONE kind of dead."

I know when it comes to bullet weight alone, with all other variables being equal, bigger IS better.

Granted, alot depends on the construction of the bullet, almost as much as the weight. I am not saying a RNL bullet of 300 grains pushed to 850 fps will kill better than a QUALITY 180 HPJ hunting bullet pushed to 1400 fps.

However, if you push a 300 grain XTP (or a new Barnes XPB 225g for that matter) to the limit, the same shot at the same animal WILL net a better result. It has to.

Otherwise all the big bore 500's and like cartriges would be replaced with one of the new wizz-bang, sub-35 caliber, small-short-fast magnums.

Right?

01 March 2005, 23:10

Flippy

quote:
Originally posted by jro45:
I think the 180gr bullet is all you need to kill a deer and yes some people use the 22 cal. to hunt and kill deer. I don't know how accuracy
is beyond 50 yds. That all I've shot them to. Will have to see what it is at 100 yds.

P.S. I know it can be done.

My dad killed a blacktail doe while she was jumpiung across a road with a 357mag loaded with Winchester Supreme 180g handgun hunting loads at 15 paces, broadside.

The bullet penetrated both lungs and exited out the far side. The exit wound was 10" in diameter. This is to be expected at 50 feet.

This was a Dan Wesson 357, not a 44 mag. If you need to shoot 180g bullets at short distance, you don't need a 44. If you don't like recoil, buy a 22.

02 March 2005, 23:26

bfrshooter

Flippy, what you don't understand is that the 180 gr. .357 bullet is very heavy and tough in that caliber and is comparable to the 300 or heavier bullet in the .44. You are comparing apples to oranges.
Bullet construction and the purpose it was made for is the important thing here, not the actual weight. A very tough 180 gr. .44 bullet will be good, but most are not made for big game and open too fast.
The very important solution to this discussion is not what will kill big game, but what will do it every time with no failures. I am sure I can kill a deer with a perfect shot with a ball from a slingshot, if I actually do this, would you use a slingshot for all of your hunting? Or will you use your common sense in picking a firearm and the proper bullet?
My friend has made tests on the head of a deer with his pellet gun. He found the pellet will penetrate into the brain at close range, even through tough bone areas. Do you think he will hunt deer with his pellet gun? Will I use one? Will you? I don't think so, so what is the problem with using a heavy bullet rather then some fragile one? I don't care what caliber you use from .22 to .460, the bullet must be right for the velocity and the type of game being hunted.

03 March 2005, 01:15

jro45

I was hunting deer with my 20ga shotgun shooting buckshot. I got one one pellet went threw the lungs and killed that deer after 50 yds. You can't tell me that a 180gr. bullet from a 44 cal handgun can't kill deer if the bullet is shot for the lungs evertime.

03 March 2005, 09:13

bfrshooter

jro, nowhere did I say it would not kill deer, or larger game. I have been saying it is not the best choice. If all of your shots are perfect it will work, but you are telling me you can place every shot perfect and all deer will be standing perfect and you will never hit a big bone and will pass up a quartering shot on the buck of a lifetime. My hat is off to you.
The boolits I prefer to use will go through a 6" tree and the deer, or vise versa. Or end to end on a cape buffalo. I have no fear of a little extra recoil.

03 March 2005, 16:59

wheelgun101

I agree with bfrshooter 100%.A buddy of mine shot a hog at 30 FEET away with his 44 mag ruger.The hog dropped in his tracks for about 5 seconds then got up and ran off.I walked up to him asked where the hog was " I don't know".We tracked it for a ways found it standing in a clearing about 50 yards from us I shot it with my 44 with 325 gr lbt bullet.It dropped for good.We looked at where his bullet hit it looked like it had splattered on his shoulder.I asked what ammo he had"some stuff I bought at Wal-Mart".He now shoots ammo I load for hunting game.

03 March 2005, 21:42

Flippy

quote:
Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Flippy, what you don't understand is that the 180 gr. .357 bullet is very heavy and tough in that caliber and is comparable to the 300 or heavier bullet in the .44. You are comparing apples to oranges.
Bullet construction and the purpose it was made for is the important thing here, not the actual weight. A very tough 180 gr. .44 bullet will be good, but most are not made for big game and open too fast.
The very important solution to this discussion is not what will kill big game, but what will do it every time with no failures. I am sure I can kill a deer with a perfect shot with a ball from a slingshot, if I actually do this, would you use a slingshot for all of your hunting? Or will you use your common sense in picking a firearm and the proper bullet?
My friend has made tests on the head of a deer with his pellet gun. He found the pellet will penetrate into the brain at close range, even through tough bone areas. Do you think he will hunt deer with his pellet gun? Will I use one? Will you? I don't think so, so what is the problem with using a heavy bullet rather then some fragile one? I don't care what caliber you use from .22 to .460, the bullet must be right for the velocity and the type of game being hunted.

bfrshooter, I DO understand the relative "toughness" bullet companies engineer into different bullets for different cartridges, in MOST cases. Other wise it would be unsafe to hunt dangerous game with a big bore, the bullets would fly apart. I was trying to illustrate a point. If mo.shooter wants to shoot 180g bullets, he should buy a 357.

Most bullet manufactures make their "hunting bullets" as tough as practical for caliber. â€œToo toughâ€ won't expand at cartridge specific velocities (unless that is the idea-e.g. solids) and "too light" will fly apart (unless that is the idea-e.g. varmint bullets).

Most bullets for the 44 magnum will be designed tougher than most 357 for same bullet weight. The cartridge generates more power.

The only reason I can see for using 180g bullets in a 44 magnum would be target practice. That negates "practicing with what you hunt with," IF you only practice with 180g bullets. When hunting, most people are not even aware of recoil until some time after the shot. Sometimes they are not aware until the bruise shows up!

If you and your â€œfriendâ€ want to practice with your pellet gun on deer, so be it.

quote:
The very important solution to this discussion is not what will kill big game, but what will do it every time with no failures.

There is no bullet or cartrige that will kill everytime with no failures. Period. The best we can do is stack the odds in our favor. That's why I use 300g bullets.

I ALSO understand:
IF YOU CAN'T STAND THE RECOIL, GET OUT OF THE CARTRIDGE.

03 March 2005, 23:04

mo.shooter

I us the 180gr. becouse a little more speed
maybe im wrong but but have had great I guess
luck shoot a nice buck one time with a 240gr
jsp thru both lungs I got him after 80yrds.
not much expansion thats why I tryed the 180gr
lets face it a 44mag is not a real fast shooter
any way I have never had the 180gr. come apart
this has been what I have found even one that
went thru both sholder blades I found that bullet I the snow just passed the deer.

04 March 2005, 00:07

fredj338

I've shot hundreds of the 180gr.....on jackrabbits. I want more penetration on deer size game, it's the any angle thing.

I like 240grjhp or 250-300grSLWC or LFP.

04 March 2005, 03:46

jro45

All I said was that it will kill deer. I didn't say it the best way to kill deer, Thats up to the hunter. Some people you can talk til you're are blue in the face and they still do what they want. AMERICA is Great!

04 March 2005, 04:29

bfrshooter

I have to give up here. It seems as if we are all on the same page and really think alike. It has been a great discussion and I enjoyed it. After taking a great many deer with handguns of all types and settling on revolvers only as being more effective then the 7mm's and 30's from single shot pistols, I feel at home with all of you. I know I will never use a rifle again and have not even had to take my muzzle loaders out the last few seasons because I get enough deer with the bow and handguns.
Now, what subject can we run through the ringer next?

12 March 2005, 00:13

Mr Jim Beagles

I've been using 180's on deer in Iowa for several years now. I find them to be very good. I use the Remington 180 JHP with 25gr 2400 behind and it does very well. I wasn't really happy with heavier bullets. I get 2" groups at 50 yards with a rest. I have a 7 1/2" Ruger Super Blackhawk with a 2x Tasco scope. Works for me.

17 March 2005, 04:02

Greg K

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Jim Beagles:
I've been using 180's on deer in Iowa for several years now. I find them to be very good. I use the Remington 180 JHP with 25gr 2400 behind and it does very well. I wasn't really happy with heavier bullets. I get 2" groups at 50 yards with a rest. I have a 7 1/2" Ruger Super Blackhawk with a 2x Tasco scope. Works for me.

And they'll work just fine for anyone who tries them at any reasonable shot.

19 March 2005, 05:57

MS Hitman

So will a .22 rimfire, but I wouldn't recommend it.

25 March 2005, 04:59

Greg K

quote:
Originally posted by MS Hitman:
So will a .22 rimfire, but I wouldn't recommend it.

Are you equating using a 22 rimfire with a 180 gr JHP 44 Mag??????? Let's get real ok?

How many deer have you failed to kill with a 180/200 gr 44 Mag load? Have you tried the lighter bullets or are you just convinced in you own mind that they won't work?

02 April 2005, 17:50

MS Hitman

Well, I must admit I've killed more deer with a .22 rimfire than I have with lightweight bullets in a .44 magnum.

Now speaking from my experinces based on hunts I have made on two continents, I will stand by my opinion that slower heavier bullets perform much better than the lighter faster ones.

So I would say I am real, why don't you join me?