44 mag bullets for grizzly

11 July 2001, 01:43

penrod72

What weight hard cast bullets would you load for grizzly bear protection?

11 July 2001, 04:51

Paul H

I really can't in good conscience recomend a handgun for grizzly protection, it is a marginal round for hunting them, and in defensive situations, you want even more power.

That said, I carry a 44 much more then a rifle, due to handiness, and use a 320 gr hardcast over a max charge of H110. Corbon makes a few similar loads. So long as you understand the limitations of the revolver, it is definately a step up from packing air.

11 July 2001, 18:20

<Mark C. Kimmell>

I don"t know persnally if it will stop a charging grizzly,but I load a 320gr.WFNGC LBT from Cast Performance with 21.0grs. of WW 296 with a CCI 350 mag. primer and Fed. cases. This load travels 1300fps. with an extreme spread of 14fps. out of my 7-1/2" Ruger Super Redhawk 44mag. This load is heavy with stout recoil with no pressure signs in my gun. I intend to use this load for black bear and elk in Wa. state this year along with my 15" T/C Encore 35 Whelen handgun. Mark

12 July 2001, 00:09

Tom F

Having plugged a charging black bear with a 44 mag, I'd not reccomend it for any sort of grizzly, given the marginally effective results obtained.

TF

12 July 2001, 06:35

<Carl>

If you value your health and Live you should pack a good Rifle in a decent caliber like a 338 Winchester Mag. with a 250 grain soft nose Bullet. This will flip a 9 ft. charging Grizzly on his Back if shot at point blank range and give you a chance for soconds an thirds. I know becouse I have tracked woundet Grizzlys for over 20 years and I am still arround and had only one land on me before expiring.

Sorry Folks, but if you trust your life to a 44 Mag. I am afraid eventually you will regrett it. Karl

12 July 2001, 15:15

p dog shooter

There have been many documented cases where hand have saved the life of a person carrying them and killed the grizzly bear. Just a year or so ago a bow hunter shot and kill a sow at 12 feet. broke her neck. A hand gun might not be ideal put sure beats playing dead or a rock and sharp stick. If that is what you have to carry buy all means carry it instead of nothing. Not all bears that attack are 500lb plus many are on the small size an a haund gund is more then enough to get the job done. Don't belive the old saying save a bullet for your self keep on fighting and give the bear the last shot. A lot of this a hand gun well not work is put out by anti gunners who don't want you defending your selfs nor to they want you to carry a gun or kill something.

12 July 2001, 18:12

<Fuzz>

I wouldn't go lighter than 300grs. My weapon of choice would be a 12ga.shotgun,16" barrel shooting Brenake Rotwell Rifled slugs.The good thing about a handgun is that you would have it on you were a rifle would be somewhere else say if you were fishing.
Fuzz

14 July 2001, 07:30

<BigBores>

All,

I have to agree with Paul, Tom, etc. There is no way in HELL a pistol is a good bear stopper. If you are talking PROTECTION from bears, that implies that the bear is already agitated (adrenaline does unbelievable things to bears!). This is not a docile, just woken up from a nice nap, happy bear. This is a pissed off I'm gonna tear your face off 'cause I think you'd look better that way, kind of bear. THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO!

If you are hunting bears, or big game in bear areas, then your RIFLE is your protection. If you are fishing, then have a short barrelled shotgun loaded with slugs slung over your shoulder, or a big caliber rifle. A slug gun isn't that heavy, and we are talking up close kissy kissy ranges anyway.

If you use a handgun, you will likely get the crap mauled out of you before you can stop the bear. Remember, game wardens have lost ALL sense of humor about poeple shooting bears. You had better be DAMN sure that bear was gonna maul you, and NOT JUST WANTING THE FISH IN YOUR BASKET, OR YOUR DEER! This means ranges will be very short, and you will not have much time to get off very many QUALITY shots. That also means the first thing you do is seperate yourself from the food (fish, downed big game, camp food, etc.). Killing a bear to save your food or fish or kill will get you a very nice fine and maybe even some quality time in a state run hotel.

I'm sorry for "shouting", but I feel the extra emphasis was necessary to get through to some poeple. Yes I do carry a handgun, but I also have either a shotgun or large rifle ALWAYS no farther than arms length away.

15 July 2001, 05:13

p dog shooter

To Bigbores There are times where carrying a long gun with you is more trouble then it is worth or justs gets in the way so much that you can't . You are forgetting the fact that a lot of people have saved themselfs form being mauled by shooting and killing the bear with a hand gun no it is not the first choice but it sure beats the heck out of beating them with your walking stick. Try carrying a 60 pound pack for two weeks and then adding a 7 to 8 lbs gun on top of it you well soon wish you had left it at home and were carrying a handgun. The long guns just get in the way unless the trip is a hunting one. Having a handgun is a lot better defensive weapon then not having a firearm at all.

15 July 2001, 06:50

smallfry

wow... Having lived in the heart of brown bear country I would have to say I felt very nervous carrying a handgun only. That is not to say that I didnt stop doing it. For the most part I carried rifles.

Pdog... I know what you mean... I have known lots of people who had carried no protection at all, all there life. I also had known of a few people who had died with their rifles by them. When your turn comes, survival starts with personal responsibility. I always felt better carrying a 450 ackley.

If you dont mind... yes, the 44 mag with 300-320 grainers is better then nothing at all. Please carry a rifle if its not a hassle.

15 July 2001, 11:36

<BigBores>

I have carried a 60 lb pack and a 9-10 lb rifle for 5 years. It's not about convenience, it's about being prepared. It's about having the proper equipment with you to do the job. It's about being responsible for your own safety.

Unless you have a guide with you to save your ass, you are begging for trouble by only carrying a pistol into bear country. I have fished and guided samon fishers in bear country and I have seen all of the above. Any experienced guide will just roll his eyes at you and shake his head if you show up with a handgun for bears. Yes few have been saved by pistols, but that is FEW. Period. Most of those have also been mualed in the process. As I said above, you will have little to no warning in a bear attack, unless you are one of those who will shoot any bear that comes within 50 ft or tries to take your fish. There are very few justified bear shootings in bear country. When it is a rare justified incident, he will be on top of you before you know it.

If someone can't manage to carry a pack, fishing tackle, etc., and at least a short barreled shotgun with pistol grip loaded with slugs with them, cause the extra weight is too much, then they should stay home or bring a nany with them to watch over them.

I have had bears walk right through our fishing camp, and fish less than 20 ft from me and my client on the same bank. No big deal cuase they are after food, not poeple. It's amazing how unhinged some fishermen get at the sight of a bear within 100yds of them or their camp. I have also seen bears shot only cuase the fisher didn't want to give up the fish. Not only is that stupid, it's illegal.

Even a "dead" bear can stay up on it's feet for a long enough time to maul you enough to either kill you or leave you permanently damaged. To "stop" a bear you have to shut down their nervous system. I have seen few guys who have the ability (I mean take the time to practice enough) to be able to hit a bear in the right spot with a pistol under extreme duress.

I have however seen plenty of guys that show up with 44's or 454's that bought them right before their trip, that can't hit the broad side of a hill, let alone a brain or spinal cord shot on a charging bear at 10ft.

Also take into account it could be a day (or more) before a plane can get in and get your ass out and to a hospital. That means even a "moderate" mauling can kill you in the bush, simply due to lack of medical attention. A high price to pay for "convenience".

Now that being said, if you decide to use a handgun, that is fine for YOU. BUT, to recommend to a total stranger that a handgun will protect them from a bear is ridiculous. They might actually believe you cuase they don't have the experience of having been there to know any different.

Then you have to be willing to accept some responsibility for your "advice". Are you? If this guy gets the crap mauled out of him holding a revolver with 3 shots fired out of it, are you going to pay his medical bills, or put his kids through college? I doubt it.

I am not trying to flame you, or anyone else, but you are definately giving risky advice to poeple across a wide medium who might get injured due to a false sense of security.

You only have to see ONE mauling to NEVER wish you had left your rifle at home.

15 July 2001, 14:37

p dog shooter

Bigbore tell that to the guy who stop the grizzly with his 44 mag at 12 feet when he was out bow hunting. You think that you can carry a rifle and a bow at the same time. Or the guy up in MT. a couple of years ago who kill the sow as she was coming up the tree after him and the game warden who kill the one that was mauling him with a 357.I never said that a hand gun is the best but it sure beats that heck out of nothing. Having spent I lot more then five years carrying a pack around I know to well what it is like to carry a rifle with one also. A handgun isn't for every one and a rifle is a lot easyer to hit with but did you ever leave your rifle leaning against a tree more then 5 steps away.

15 July 2001, 15:10

<BigBores>

For once, I'll be brief. NO. The first time I went to AK, was when I saw the aftermath of a bear mualing. It has always stuck with me. I am not paranoid about it. I've seen it. My rifle, or another in our group, is never out of arms length of one of us while in bear country. There is always at least one pair of eyes watching for bears. That goes to responsibility (see earlier post). I have lost gear, food, kills, and fish to bears. I have never had anyone near me or in my group attacked. I have never had to stop a pissed bear (thankfully). I have seen the aftermath. And I have seen too many idiots shoot bears that could have been avoided easily with some effort. Sorry if I have ranted on you but this is a sore subject with me.

I would never carry a bow in bear country, that's the client's part of the deal.

3 vauge accounts do not prove anything.

Talk to AK game and fish about bear incidents and success/failure of handguns for protection. Some of the wardens are more vocal than me.

For the record, that's 5 years AK, 20yrs in AZ and NM.

Oh, well, so much for being brief. LOL.

Peace to you and I didn't mean to get personal, I offer my apology if you took it that way. It's hard to read tone of voice in a forum. I read back my earlier post and it read different than when I typed it.

15 July 2001, 19:06

Yukoner

quote:
Originally posted by p dog shooter:
To Bigbores There are times where carrying a long gun with you is more trouble then it is worth or justs gets in the way so much that you can't . You are forgetting the fact that a lot of people have saved themselfs form being mauled by shooting and killing the bear with a hand gun no it is not the first choice but it sure beats the heck out of beating them with your walking stick. Try carrying a 60 pound pack for two weeks and then adding a 7 to 8 lbs gun on top of it you well soon wish you had left it at home and were carrying a handgun. The long guns just get in the way unless the trip is a hunting one. Having a handgun is a lot better defensive weapon then not having a firearm at all.

I have to side with P Dog Shooter on this one. Big Bores has alot of merrit but I can think of and recall too many examples of when a rifle was not in the right place if a bear showed up. I carry a rifle when backing up clients. I try to stay close to it at all times. 5 feet away could be too far. At least with a side arm you can carry it most everywhere you go.(For backing up clients, I would not recomend the hand gun)
Chris Widrig, an outfitter that I work for was badly mauled 2 years ago. He was walking his horse in the front of a pack string. Around a dozen horses,2 hunters,thier wives,anouther guide were not far behind him. There was a total of 4 rifles including one on Chris's horse. In treeless country, he rounded a patch of willow, only to run into a sow with a cub. His horse bolted leaving him unarmed. The others behind him saw the whole event unfold not being able to do a damn thing. They had trouble accessing thier rifles because the horses were spooked. By the time they were able to get a rifle, the damage was done.(They never did find 2 of the horses,saddles and guns still on them.)NOW, if Chris was carring his rifle on him instead of the horse he would still have both of his eyes and a dead bear. It is not practical to take your gun off your horse every time you dismount. Whether your are working with horses, butchering game, or fetching water, alot of the time you need both hands and unless you got three arms(maybe in my next life),you could be left unarmed.
I know Widrig wished he had a handgun. It sure would be nice if I could have one on me most of the time.
I have heard of cases, where a bear has got on a guy and either got knocked clear from his gun or the gun was only a few feet away. One fellow related, everytime he reached for his rifle, the bear would bite at his arm or head. I have heard of a couple of cases when being mauled they had a hard time or were not able to get a rifle in position to shoot the bear. If it were legal for me to carry a side arm, I would not leave my rifle too far behind. I have heard many experienced guides say about hand guns," At least you got it with you"( In the event you get thrown from a horse, loose a boat in a river, etc. etc.)

Daryl

16 July 2001, 01:00

p dog shooter

Hay Bigbores at least we agree that going armed in bear country is a lot better then what the antis want us to do that is bend over and kiss it good buy if a bear wants to take abite out of you. Their defense is that it is better to let a bear chew on you then to fight back. Never ever give up your guns.

03 August 2001, 13:49

<Red Mule>

I to like horse power . I went to AK. hunting brown bears and took a 416 Rigby.Hand load with 400 grs swift A frame bullets . Vels 2450. If the bear was going to eat me. I was going to give it a vaule.SO SHOOT A GUN THAT YOU CAN HANDLE. RED MULE

03 August 2001, 17:12

Santala

I had an old frined who was a Colorado Fish and Game officer that thought the new 44 mag (in the 60's) was the ticket when he was checking grizzly problems. After the first problem bear he ran into, he told me that the only thing a 44 mag was good for with a griz was to slow him down until he got his rifle out.

I have no personal knowledge but that was his report to me.

Good Hunting
Steve

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Every man dies, but not every man really lives!!

04 August 2001, 01:34

Phantom Duck

I have the dubious honor of having to use a 44 mag and 300 grain JHP on a black bear (not a brown)while back packing (infamous 74 lb. pack). My ex wife inadvertently got between a sow and her cub And all I can say, is I hope you are good with a speed loader under extreme duress, because when they get in that nasty mood there is not a lot of frontal area to hit that will down them. Six rounds, all solid hits and the sow was getting real up close and personal. The eighth round put her down and I finished her with the ninth. What a tragedy. She was just doing what she was supposed to. Now, any bear sign, and I walk around. Still carry the S&W 44 mag & two speed loaders. But I certainly wouldn't go looking for trouble with it. If you are still insistant on going after a Grizzly with a 44 mag, can I have your gun collection if you don't get back? I'll keep them oiled and in good order.

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"If you can keep your head about you when all others are loosing theirs and blaiming it on you..."

04 August 2001, 05:00

<BigBores>

Daryl and Phantom,

Sorry to hear about your tales. Thankfully Phantom, you must be a very good shot to put her down that fast. I agree it was a shame, but it was necessary. I too have seen bears loaded with adrenaline (aftermath). They are unbelievably hard to stop. The difference is amazing.

All,

For the record again, I did say in my first post that I DO carry a handgun. Guess that part got passed over in the rucuss. It's a 45 Long Colt Anaconda 6"bbl, loaded with 335 gr gas checked hardcast at 1300fps. That's about the most I think that gun will handle. BUT THAT IS NOT, I REPEAT NOT MY BEAR PROTECTION. That is my "holly sh*t, the feces has hit the ocsillator, last attempt at leaving a relatively intact corpse" gun.

My rifle is my protection, and always will be. It's a 375 H&H. By the time I go up again, it will be a tuned CZ 416 Rigby.

04 August 2001, 05:33

Tom F

The only time that I had to plug a (charging with extreme prejudice) Black Bear, was (go figure) one of the few times that I was carrying a sidearm (44mag) rather than a realistic bear stopper. All of the practice paid off or I wouldn't be here to tell the tale. However, blackies are relatively easy to kill as opposed to a Grizz. Time can sometimes run in slow motion, as you can actually see the hits and watch the silky black coat ripple fore to aft with the shockwave. The only thing that really saved me was that I hit him in the upper arm/shoulder with the second shot, which caused him to veer off. He would have still had me for lunch if he had kept comming!

For Grizz, well they are good noise makers and might save you if you were shinnied up a small black spruce and he was nipping at your heels! Otherwise...NO!

04 August 2001, 15:56

<Paul Dustin>

Well it would be on the small side for Grizzly. But it would be better then having stick if kwon how to use it. Place your shot well it may be your last.