hunting with WFNHC question

11 October 2011, 21:04

224TTH

I am shooting the WFNHC 320gr load from doubletap out of my 44 SRH deer hunting this year. I have had different people say different things about hunting with this bullet. Some say I should only shoot for the shoulder because the bullet "wont expand" and you will have to hit bone. I think it will cause damage because of the WFN. I have ALWAYS shot ribcage heart/lung shots deer hunting. Will this be an acceptable shot for deer with the WFN or should I try for the shoulder shot to get adequate damage?

thanks
224TTH

11 October 2011, 21:56

Whitworth

Either shot will work. I have used that load extensively with great results. The last animal I took was a wild hog that weighed 225-lbs that I double lunged, without hitting the shoulder, and she piled up within 25 yards. That bullet will do lots of damage without having to break bone. That said, I am a fan of the high shoulder shot as it usually puts an animal down right now. I don't like to track if I don't have to.

I will be using that load on deer this year.

11 October 2011, 22:34

224TTH

Whitworth

That is what I thought also. I have always used lung/heart shots. I guess that comes from bow hunting. I have only ever had a couple deer fall at the shot in my life. One was a doe frontal shot just above where the curls of hair stop on the brisket, and a small yearling doe shot in the "triangle". I do not mind tracking, but what type of bloodtrails do you usually see with the hardcast? I aim for the "triangle" which is between the elbow-shoulder blade-front leg joint. It is a < shaped area if the deer is turned left, just to kind of describe where I try to shoot.

Where EXACTLY do you aim for a "shoulder shot". I would assume you are referring to where the shoulder blade overlaps the spine?

thanks
224TTH

11 October 2011, 23:08

Whitworth

I have experienced very good blood trails because they nearly always exit no matter the animal providing two leaking points. That said, it depends on the animal. I have had well hit hogs, with two holes no drop any blood.

Sometimes a bit lower. I don't necessarily expect to spine the animal, but when you break the shoulder, they don't run well.

12 October 2011, 00:00

tradmark

we can debate until the end of time about expandables vs hardcast etc. but what we can't debate is that on deer any flatpoint hardcast will kill definitively. i've so far shot three deer this year with hardcast and none has traveled farther than 5 yards, in fact on one, a small doe, she dropped on the spot and there was no vitals hit, no spine hit, but the impact from the bullet did break the spine. it was a 340 grain hardcast traveling over 1700 fps.

there should be no debate on the 320 grain loads effectiveness on deer.

12 October 2011, 00:00

tradmark

also, it ruined my backstrap.

12 October 2011, 00:02

224TTH

I have killed 8 hogs with a bow and 3 with a gun, and been in on the tracking of about 75 hogs with a bow. In my experience with them they are way more inconsistant in blood trails and typically lighter blood trails than a deer! They are in a different class than a deer in my opinion. I am just trying to cover all my bases while hunting deer with a pistol and am a novice at it!

thanks
224tth

12 October 2011, 00:52

Whitworth

You'll do fine. Put the bullet in the boiler room and go collect your venison -- of course you can break its shoulder if you want.

12 October 2011, 07:09

MS Hitman

I've killed only 24 or 25 with .44 mags; about half of those with hardcast. Shoot the deer where you normally do with any other bullet. No need to sprinkle cat urine or monkey dandruff on a cast bullet to make them work properly.

12 October 2011, 16:20

Whitworth

Hang on a second. I have used monkey dandruff quite successfully over the years. But, I load to the magic velocity with pixie dust, so this may be the tipping factor. Haven't used cat urine.......yet.

12 October 2011, 19:20

clintsfolly

Remind me if I ever get to meet Whitworth to not to eat the venison if offered!!!!! Clint

12 October 2011, 20:06

Whitworth

quote:
Originally posted by clintsfolly:
Remind me if I ever get to meet Whitworth to not to eat the venison if offered!!!!! Clint

Wait till you try the moose I prepare!

12 October 2011, 22:10

bfrshooter

The .44 needs no expansion. I have killed many deer with both the WLN and WFN, behind the shoulder shots.
The .44 Double Tap ammo is good, just not as accurate as I like because of the mag primers used. They are good for 2" at 50 yards.

12 October 2011, 22:17

Whitworth

quote:
Originally posted by bfrshooter:
The .44 needs no expansion. I have killed many deer with both the WLN and WFN, behind the shoulder shots.
The .44 Double Tap ammo is good, just not as accurate as I like because of the mag primers used. They are good for 2" at 50 yards.

In other words, minute of deer......

12 October 2011, 22:29

224TTH

Im my gun the Doubletap 320WFN shoots just BARELY over 1" with 3 different 3 shot groups. With an average velocity of 1348FPS out of a 9.5" brl.

thanks
224TTH

13 October 2011, 06:07

MS Hitman

quote:
Originally posted by bfrshooter:
The .44 needs no expansion. I have killed many deer with both the WLN and WFN, behind the shoulder shots.
The .44 Double Tap ammo is good, just not as accurate as I like because of the mag primers used. They are good for 2" at 50 yards.

Magnum primers being the problem my eye!. Jim, you can take this nonsense elsewhere.

13 October 2011, 19:51

bfrshooter

quote:
Posted 13 October 2011 05:07 Hide Post

quote:
Originally posted by bfrshooter:
The .44 needs no expansion. I have killed many deer with both the WLN and WFN, behind the shoulder shots.
The .44 Double Tap ammo is good, just not as accurate as I like because of the mag primers used. They are good for 2" at 50 yards.

Magnum primers being the problem my eye!. Jim, you can take this nonsense elsewhere.

You'd be surprised how hard simple is on some people.

Nope, been shooting the .44 since 1956 and the mag primer will triple groups. The reason is high pressure primers can move the boolit out of the brass before good ignition. That will change case capacity from shot to shot.
Even Federal loads the .44 with the 150 now.
I will not argue, you need to test.

13 October 2011, 22:42

MS Hitman

quote:
Originally posted by bfrshooter:
quote:
Posted 13 October 2011 05:07 Hide Post

quote:
Originally posted by bfrshooter:
The .44 needs no expansion. I have killed many deer with both the WLN and WFN, behind the shoulder shots.
The .44 Double Tap ammo is good, just not as accurate as I like because of the mag primers used. They are good for 2" at 50 yards.

Magnum primers being the problem my eye!. Jim, you can take this nonsense elsewhere.

You'd be surprised how hard simple is on some people.

Nope, been shooting the .44 since 1956 and the mag primer will triple groups. The reason is high pressure primers can move the boolit out of the brass before good ignition. That will change case capacity from shot to shot.
Even Federal loads the .44 with the 150 now.
I will not argue, you need to test.

You are correct that you will not be arguing on this forum. I'll help you find another place to do that nonsense.

Now, I've loaded quite a few .44s myself and have not had the same results you do between mag and non-mag primers. So, I'll just stick with what the loading manuals call for as the ammo and component manufacturers have more experience than either of us.

14 October 2011, 02:00

citori

If you were shooting a .243 or .30 cal. you'd be happy if you bullet mushroomed to .44 cal. halfway through. The WFNHC will make a .44 cal. hole the whole way! It will almost certainly punch through and leave a hole on both sides. I wouldn't worry. Put it in the boiler room and the buck should shut down quickly.

14 October 2011, 16:18

Whitworth

quote:
Originally posted by citori:
If you were shooting a .243 or .30 cal. you'd be happy if you bullet mushroomed to .44 cal. halfway through. The WFNHC will make a .44 cal. hole the whole way! It will almost certainly punch through and leave a hole on both sides. I wouldn't worry. Put it in the boiler room and the buck should shut down quickly.

Actually, that big meplat will make a significantly bigger hole than the diameter of the bullet -- what's not to like? And if it exits, that is one long wound channel -- and that is good in my book!

14 October 2011, 19:27

bfrshooter

quote:
You are correct that you will not be arguing on this forum. I'll help you find another place to do that nonsense.

Now, I've loaded quite a few .44s myself and have not had the same results you do between mag and non-mag primers. So, I'll just stick with what the loading manuals call for as the ammo and component manufacturers have more experience than either of us.

How about an extreme cold weather test between both primers, well below zero and the 150 still did better then the mag.

Would you be so kind as to show your results.
I would be entirely happy to go down right now and shoot groups with each primer. Not a challenge in any way, just a component test.

14 October 2011, 23:47

MS Hitman

quote:
Originally posted by bfrshooter:
quote:
You are correct that you will not be arguing on this forum. I'll help you find another place to do that nonsense.

Now, I've loaded quite a few .44s myself and have not had the same results you do between mag and non-mag primers. So, I'll just stick with what the loading manuals call for as the ammo and component manufacturers have more experience than either of us.

How about an extreme cold weather test between both primers, well below zero and the 150 still did better then the mag.

Would you be so kind as to show your results.
I would be entirely happy to go down right now and shoot groups with each primer. Not a challenge in any way, just a component test.

Anyone, including me, can post anything on the internet and call what they wish. Plus, I don't feel the need to keep every single target I've shot; take it any way you wish, just the truth.

If I had the time and money, I'd just ride up to WV and we could load and shoot all these different component combinations and sit back with a couple of good single malts afterwards.

15 October 2011, 02:12

bfrshooter

Yes, we could do that. I would enjoy it with you.
Every one is always welcome.

19 October 2011, 23:07

bfrshooter

I just shot more. Same boolits, same loads after working to the best with the LP mags. 50 yards.
Center target has a group of 15/16" and the top group was with a sandbag glitch that caused one high shot or I would have had another sub 1/2" group.
Notice how large mag primer groups are. This is common. They triple groups.

20 October 2011, 00:07

Lar45

Does this mag primer tendency hold for other cartridges of similar capacity, 41mag, 45Colt...?
I know that you are a fan of large primer pockets for the 454, but I have a pile of 454 brass. I have loaded most of my 454 stuff with WC820 and noticed that I needed a mag primer to ignite the powder in the winter. I didn't think to check group size for a difference. The velocity was similar and shot to the same place.

20 October 2011, 01:23

bfrshooter

quote:
Posted 19 October 2011 23:07 Hide Post
Does this mag primer tendency hold for other cartridges of similar capacity, 41mag, 45Colt...?
I know that you are a fan of large primer pockets for the 454, but I have a pile of 454 brass. I have loaded most of my 454 stuff with WC820 and noticed that I needed a mag primer to ignite the powder in the winter. I didn't think to check group size for a difference. The velocity was similar and shot to the same place.

I don't know Glen. Most of my work has been the .44 so maybe the .41 would be the same. I don't have one.
I found accuracy increases with the mag primer when you get to the .475 and up. The standard primer will ignite all loads, even in the .500 JRH and 45-70 but accuracy falls off. The mag primer is a great thing and is needed but I still think smaller cases do not need the force.
Can you test the .41 for us?
I do use the 150 in the .45 Colt too but the WLP seemed to be OK. A full mag primer opened groups.
It is a toss up between a WLP, Fed 150 and CCI 300 in the .45 Colt I still think the 150 has an edge. The case is borderline between small and large. When you get to the .454, it loves a LP mag primer over all else.

20 October 2011, 05:17

Lar45

I don't have a 41 either, but was just curious.

quote:
Originally posted by bfrshooter:
quote:
Posted 19 October 2011 23:07 Hide Post
Does this mag primer tendency hold for other cartridges of similar capacity, 41mag, 45Colt...?
I know that you are a fan of large primer pockets for the 454, but I have a pile of 454 brass. I have loaded most of my 454 stuff with WC820 and noticed that I needed a mag primer to ignite the powder in the winter. I didn't think to check group size for a difference. The velocity was similar and shot to the same place.

I don't know Glen. Most of my work has been the .44 so maybe the .41 would be the same. I don't have one.
I found accuracy increases with the mag primer when you get to the .475 and up. The standard primer will ignite all loads, even in the .500 JRH and 45-70 but accuracy falls off. The mag primer is a great thing and is needed but I still think smaller cases do not need the force.
Can you test the .41 for us?
I do use the 150 in the .45 Colt too but the WLP seemed to be OK. A full mag primer opened groups.
It is a toss up between a WLP, Fed 150 and CCI 300 in the .45 Colt I still think the 150 has an edge. The case is borderline between small and large. When you get to the .454, it loves a LP mag primer over all else.

20 October 2011, 20:00

bfrshooter

I made a mistake on group size. One was under 1/2". The top was between 15/16" and 1".
From Whitworths Ruger Hunter. With control, this gun is capable of less then 1/2" at 50 but primer changes are dramatic.
I just can't make excuses for this, I have proven it 1000 times.
I would sure try the Fed 150 in the .41 with extensive testing. The case is close to the .44, a little smaller of course but not a whole lot.
I depend on .41 owners to see if a primer will cut groups by 2/3's or more.