bullets skipping off water

22 June 2008, 13:40

I was just reading a story on the local news about a camper shooting into a lake and the bullets allegedly skipping off the water and on across the lake.

Besides "common knowledge" has anyone actually tested whether bullets do ricochet off water and at what angles?

just curious.

John

22 June 2008, 23:22

buffybr

Someone like Alf can probably technically explain it better than I can, but if I remember my physics correctly, the angle of incidence equals the angle of reflection. In other words, the angle a bullet hits the water equals the angle it will ricochet off the water.

However that is in a perfect world. In real life, the water surface is not perfectly flat so the ricochet will be in some unpredictable angle in the general direction that the bullet was traveling when it hit the water.

I can think of several other factors that will also affect a bullet skipping off water.

Velocity is a major factor. The faster the bullet is traveling, the greater the chance of a ricochet.

Also, when the bullet hits the water, it will loose some velocity which will change the angle of ricochet.

The shape of the bullet will also affect the angle of the ricochet. Spitzer type bullets have a greater potential for a ricochet off water than bullets with flat points like wadcutters.

And finally, I think the biggest factor affecting bullets ricocheting off water is the angle that the bullet hits the water. The flatter the angle that the bullet hits the water, the greater the chance of a ricochet. As the angle that the bullet hits the water increases toward verticle, the chances of a ricochet decrease until at some angle the bullet will penetrate into the water and not ricochet.

That is why if you shoot down at a steep angle, you can shoot fish in a barrel.

08 July 2008, 03:31

Montana Maddness

As for the first ? Do they? YES they do! and I have done it my self. Watched them slam into the mud bank on the other side of the pond as a kid. As for the specifics of angles, NO Clue!
MM

03 October 2008, 05:45

ireload2

They sure do and they will produce a variety of sounds from the 1950s Lone Ranger ricochet to a wa ooh wa ooh sound....

04 October 2008, 06:30

Shinzo

I reckon that if they could skip bombs off water in WW2 then bullets would be easy peasy, you'd need to be fairly low to the water to get a shallow angle, but whether it would classify as wise..... well thats another story.

Steve

04 October 2008, 08:27

Chop901

In an area with no people/livestock, or down in a canyon, it's a mighty fun thing to do. After a while, you can plan where the bullet will bounce. Plain round-nosed .22 bullets are quite predictable.
In streams, you can toss in a marshmallow and, firing a little low, and with a little lead, blow the marshmallow about 20' out of the water.

04 October 2008, 09:19

N E 450 No2

Once on a friends land we were shooting a Full Auto Mac 10 with a silencer with factory 230gr ball.

We were standing next to a pond.

I fired a 10 round or so burst into the water.

After a few seconds we herd ting ting ting ting, etc.

It was comming from the raggedy tin barn that was 60 or 75 yards away.

We looked at each other, one of us said "Did you hear that??"

He said shoot again, I fired another burst, into the pond in the same place as before, and again the bullets hit the tin barn.

We could repeat the feat with no problems.

05 October 2008, 00:54

TC1

I've fired a .308 across the Mississippi river and seen them skip several times before they ran out of steam.

Terry

05 October 2008, 01:11

tiggertate

We shot a large number of 308 tracers into ponds in South Texas. Probably 9 out of every 10 skipped and the exit angles were totally unpredictable, even when the rounds were fired from the same spot and angle every time.

23 November 2008, 08:41

Philip A.

Firing a .50 HMG at sea a few weeks ago, and you could clearly see the tracers bouncing off the water when the angle was shallow.

There was also a case in the 70's where a lady in the evening traffic on a coastal road who was shot in the head, in the middle of slow traffic, and nobody saw a thing... Investigator finally found out that a guy had been popping rounds at a target floating off his boat, one or two miles off the coast. A bullet had ricocheted off the water, and hit the woman smack in the head... Manslaughter charges were pressed.

25 November 2008, 02:47

tiggertate

Slightly different but in the same vein, we had two ball 5.56 bullets come through our shop roof in Houston about two weeks apart in 2002. We were in the NW part of town and I can only surmise that someone shot at the same tower strobe or similar target from the same back porch two weeks apart. The bullets were laying on the shop floor when we came to work each morning, in perfect condition other than rifling. The holes in the roof were about 30 feet apart.

Gave new meaning to "hard hat area".

01 December 2008, 09:05

drewhenrytnt

I once ricocheted a 300gr trophy bonded solid in 375H&H off a stock tank surface. It broke a limb in a tree across the way and scared the CRAP out of the land owner standing next to me. We stuck to .222 after that.

That little red spot on a red-ear turtle's head makes a perfect aiming point!

01 December 2008, 11:39

JohnHunt

Well that convinces me. No shooting at water.

An interesting side note is how ineffective bullets are at hitting something under water.

From Mythbusters..

Hiding underwater can stop bullets from hitting you.

partly confirmed

All supersonic bullets (up to .50-caliber) disintegrated in less than 3 feet (90 cm) of water, but slower velocity bullets, like pistol rounds, need up to 8 feet (2.4 metres) of water to slow to non-lethal speeds. Shotgun slugs require even more depth (the exact depth couldnâ€™t be determined because their one test broke the rig). However, as most water-bound shots are fired from an angle, less actual depth is needed to create the necessary separation.

03 December 2008, 04:46

emron

quote:
Originally posted by Philip A.:
Firing a .50 HMG at sea a few weeks ago, and you could clearly see the tracers bouncing off the water when the angle was shallow.

There was also a case in the 70's where a lady in the evening traffic on a coastal road who was shot in the head, in the middle of slow traffic, and nobody saw a thing... Investigator finally found out that a guy had been popping rounds at a target floating off his boat, one or two miles off the coast. A bullet had ricocheted off the water, and hit the woman smack in the head... Manslaughter charges were pressed.

i am not saying its not true, but seems a little unlikely. Once the bullet hits water, it usually tumbles and i doubt a tumbling bullet would go 1 or 2 miles.

i have tried skipping bullets across my lake with my .45 acp, about 600 yds wide, and the bullets never make it to the farther bank, no matter how shallow the angle.

19 May 2009, 21:18

Mr Jim Beagles

I know this is a bit late, but I remember seeing a tv show years ago about a German shooting club that had a target shoot in which the idea was to skip bullets off the water into a paper target. As I remember, the groups weren't too good.

25 May 2009, 04:01

mousegun1

AS a veteran of many turtle safari's on stock tank' thats a pool to some folks I can say for certain that the 22 will definately richocet most of the time at any low angle

25 May 2009, 05:26

N E 450 No2

I will also add that I have skipped bullets off of hard ground, at a shooting range, into an "area" where bullets should not be.

22 June 2009, 23:58

homebrewer

My Uncle Eddie told me in 1973 to never shoot at water because the "angles were too flat." I was just a bald-faced boy and didn't understand that at all. Now I do. I have shot .22LR at water at very low angles. They will skip a few times and where they will go is anybody's guess. I have quit doing that and never shoot centerfire at water. It is irresponsible gun ownership...

23 June 2009, 02:21

DuggaBoye

Growing up with more than a mile to the nearest neighbor afforded me the "irresponsible gun ownership" homebrewer condemned.

There weren't many calibers my brothers,cousins and I didn't shoot the dreaded turtles with.

The ricochet sounds are still singing in my ears by the thousands (what's left of my ears that is).

My boys also were afforded that luxury going back to the homeplace.

That being said if you do not have intimate knowledge and/or ownership/control of a large area homebrewer is correct.

During one of our last escapades, one of "our" ricochets hit the abandoned share-croppers house about 400 hundred yards away with a distinct clang and the owls that lived in there came streaming out.

After walking over there we found the 30 caliber FMJ bullet laying on the floor and a hole in the corrugated metal used to cover the old and largely absent wood shingle roof.

As we inspected the roof we found several 22's leads that had impacted ,dented and not penetrated.

Soo, much like some red-headed women, while it may be fun , you never know the full level of danger and who might get hurt until all the noise has ended---

24 June 2009, 01:29

Last time I was prairie doggin,you could plainly see bullets that would richochet across the dry ground.Some would go quite a distance,often in a curving path,ending up hundreds of feet from in line of the path fired.

26 June 2009, 01:00

swampshooter

Winchester did extensive tests on water ricochets quite a few years ago. The only results that i remember were that a 22lr - 40 gr. bullet only lost 49 fps when ricocheting off the water, and angle of departure was totally unpredictable. Just because a ricochet stops producing splashes doesn't mean it has stopped and sunk. Ricocheting off of water doesn't cause a bullet to mushroom or tumble, I'd sure like to know where you got that information. Bullets frequently kill at ranges exceeding a mile when ricocheting from a hard surface, including water. All target shooting in inhabited areas should only be done into a backstop with at least a 45 degree angle, otherwise dangerous ricochets are a severe problem, and all shooters suffer the consequences of the irresponsible behavior of others.

27 June 2009, 04:10

Jcchartboy

Yes....even 12ga lead shotgun slugs will bounce off water. They then deform to the point that you can hear them loudly whistling through the air.

JC

27 June 2009, 17:52

Funny, I've never had a bullet skip off the pond in back of the shop.

However, the bullets do tend to be rather heavy, 182-600 grains, and moving relatively slow, read 2150-2600 fps.

There is also a mud bank that would catch anything skipping anyway.

Hitting the jugs first might slow em down a little, but, I don't think that much...

27 June 2009, 21:29

Peter

I think the angle is too steep in your case.
peter.

27 June 2009, 23:28

JohnHunt

quote:
Originally posted by GS:
Funny, I've never had a bullet skip off the pond in back of the shop.

However, the bullets do tend to be rather heavy, 182-600 grains, and moving relatively slow, read 2150-2600 fps.

There is also a mud bank that would catch anything skipping anyway.

Hitting the jugs first might slow em down a little, but, I don't think that much...

29 June 2009, 07:34

DaMan

I hope you idiots that like skipping bullets off the water don't kill anybody!

30 June 2009, 02:48

quote:
Ignored post by DaMan posted 29 June 2009 07:34

30 June 2009, 05:51

DaMan

I'm really ashamed of you friggin' bozos who think skipping rounds off the water with no idea where they'll end up is "fun shooting"!

It's you ignorant bastards that give firearms enthusiasts a bad name!

30 June 2009, 22:55

Whitworth

DaMan, have you ever contributed to any thread without it being a condemnation of some sort? Always stirring the pot. This isn't a thread about safety, or ethics, but more or less anecdotal discussion about the topic at hand.

Now you are supposed to come back and call me a hillbilly. Please don't disappoint.

01 July 2009, 05:32

DaMan

quote:
Originally posted by Whitworth:
This isn't a thread about safety, or ethics, but more or less anecdotal discussion about the topic at hand.

If you don't think the idiotic practice of skipping bullets off of water isn't a "safety issue" ....... then that speaks volumes about your lack of knowledge of firearms and physics, Whitworth!

01 July 2009, 06:04

Whitworth

You dumbass, you missed the entire point of the thread, and as usual, twisted it in another direction entirely. Actually, you probably didn't miss the point, you deliberately chose to attack the "practice." The post wasn't about whether or not it is a safe practice to skip bullets across water. I can assure you that my knowledge of firearms exceeds yours by a large margin. But, you are afraid to post reports, photos, etc. Or, more likely, you have none because you don't shoot or hunt. This is probably the reality of the matter.

04 July 2009, 04:57

DaMan

quote:
Originally posted by Whitworth:
The post wasn't about whether or not it is a safe practice to skip bullets across water.

It should have been!

quote:
Originally posted by Whitworth: I can assure you that my knowledge of firearms exceeds yours by a large margin.

I quite doubt that, Skippy!

04 July 2009, 05:37

Da Man:
Either post your experiences with bouncing bullets off water or get the fuck out of this thread with your worthless comments.

Your propensity for thread crapping only exceeds the shit that comes out your mouth.

05 July 2009, 00:55

tiggertate

And I guess he doesn't have access to private property larger than the maximum flight distance of a bullet.

05 July 2009, 05:38

SR4759

quote:
Originally posted by DaMan:
I hope you idiots that like skipping bullets off the water don't kill anybody!

When the property is large enough to contain the ricochet it is none of your business.

05 July 2009, 07:38

TC1

I wouldn't even bother explaining it.

05 July 2009, 18:11

Whitworth

quote:
Originally posted by GS:
Da Man:
Either post your experiences with bouncing bullets off water or get the fuck out of this thread with your worthless comments.

Your propensity for thread crapping only exceeds the shit that comes out your mouth.

Exactly. When you have nothing to add that is constructive, stay off the thread -- oh, wait a minute. If you stuck to that criteria you wouldn't have 28,000 + post.........

06 July 2009, 04:21

JohnHunt

quote:
Originally posted by DaMan:
quote:
Originally posted by Whitworth:
The post wasn't about whether or not it is a safe practice to skip bullets across water.

It should have been!

quote:
Originally posted by Whitworth: I can assure you that my knowledge of firearms exceeds yours by a large margin.

I quite doubt that, Skippy!

Start your own thread about the safety of skipping bullets off water. Seeing how I started this thread I can emphatically tell you that this was not about safety but rather about the propensity of bullets to actually skip.

Geez

06 July 2009, 06:38

DaMan

quote:
Originally posted by JohnHunt:

Start your own thread about the safety of skipping bullets off water. Seeing how I started this thread I can emphatically tell you that this was not about safety but rather about the propensity of bullets to actually skip.

Geez

They skip dangerously (especially at shallow angles)! Fun shooting,eh?!!!

06 July 2009, 07:13

JohnHunt

quote:
Originally posted by DaMan:
quote:
Originally posted by JohnHunt:

Start your own thread about the safety of skipping bullets off water. Seeing how I started this thread I can emphatically tell you that this was not about safety but rather about the propensity of bullets to actually skip.

Geez

They skip dangerously (especially at shallow angles)! Fun shooting,eh?!!!

That much is clear, but also quite vague.

So what angles? What exit tragectory? What bullet types?

Where the bullets fired at D-day going into the water or did they just skip around?

Want some relevance? How about hippo or croc hunting. Would be nice to know what to expect from our bullets in those situations if we miss or have a pass through.