Well, I saw something this weekend that sold me on at least looking further into Moly. The range officer at MD Carroll County Gun range, Jim, shoots 22-250 at long ranges. He molys himself. He tells me that he don't clean out the moly at all out of his barrel. He says after shooting, he runs a bore snake thru and one dry patch and don't oils at all in the bore. I asked how long he has been doing this in disbelief. He said said for about 1000 rounds. So thinking this is just another bull story by a fellow shooter, I tell him to prove it. He took that cold gun and shot 3 shots at 200 yards with about 1" groups. He said he can do it all day long. He said people defeat the purpose using Kroil and other cleaners to get the Moly out. He said, once you get the moly impregnated in the barrel, there will be no copper fouling. But it will take some time. It was unbeleivable. I am still sceptical. I kinda believe that man is taking that gun home every night and cleaning out all the moly and fouling coming back in the range every morning telling people this story.

The guy is a stand up guy and has always backed up his claims, but 1000 rounds with just a boresnake? Just unbelievable.

In my experience he's dead on...I don't clean my bore in my match rifles down to the bare metal anymore...a few passes with some Kroil on a bronze brush and some patches and I'm done. You WANT the moly in the bore!

Is he shooting a match select barrel that has been hand lapped at the factory?

Or an old POS, like mine?

Rem 700 with heavy barrel. I beleive it was factory, but don't quote me.

I would at least put some Kroil through it. After all, Moly does nothing to prevent rust.

Hello Bigcountry,

I've been hanging here rather than the "other" forum. More info that I can put to use on the reloading bench.

I don't doubt the moly story. I've always heard that once you shoot it, you should continue shooting it. But you'll forgive me if I choose to launch my bullets "naked". Went to a reloading seminar at the Atlanta SCI meeting this week and found out that in order to get the extra velocity that moly coating promises, you have to load more powder than the manual maximums. Moly allows this because the bullets reduce pressure. However, no manual gives moly loads because they are afraid someone will use the moly data with non-moly bullets and end up creating a small nuclear device on the firing line. So in order to locate the maximum load for moly bullets, you have to enter uncharted territory on you own.

[This message has been edited by GAHUNTER (edited 03-05-2002).]

I shoot moly in every one of my barrels,for reasons mentioned..............

Why would you try to clean the moly out of the barrel?? I have shot 1000 rounds thru my barrel, just run a brush with a patch wrapped around, with a little Hoppes, scrub couple times, dry patch & your done. Rust could be a problem but my guns are stored in a gun room with a dehumidifier.

GOOD reading material http://www.jarheadtop.com/books.html# Care, cleaning, & sportmanship chapter #4

What do ya say GA? Haven't seen ya postin for a while.

Only reason, I would want to clean out the moly is because, force of habit? After shooting for years, its what I always do, go home and get everything out of the barrel. You know the the powder/primer residue when cleaning out the gun. I am not saying its impossible, but for you to get that out with one swipe with a bore snake is pretty incredible. I will give it a try. But I can't say I will not clean it out after 100 rounds. This guy said he never cleans it out for well over 1000 rounds with a fast gun like a 22-250. He shoots every day since hes at the range every day.

Big Stick, how often do you clean it out totally. I was going to give you a ring, but figured wouldn't bother you over a simple subject like this.

I have sold lubricants with moly now for 15 years. It's been a standard in premium lube since WW11 but there are areas where harm has occured. One of these is in engines. It was found that moly in the larger sizes of particles clogged the galleys and also reacted with bearing materials. This is a matter of record with the Catipillar Co.

Molebdinum Dioxide has a very low coeficient of friction and in regular use the plates of moly slide off of each other. This in fact is how it works as a boundry lubricant.

Competitors to one company that sells colodial moly in engine oil says that at 750F the MOS2 turns into MOS3 which is an abrasive! I don't think that's true but I am not sure.

I am not using moly in any of my guns. I am waiting for others to figure it out.

I did try it 10 years ago and found a small difference in lower velocity and better standard deviation. I never was scientific enough to test fouling or accuracy. I just lost interst in it.

I can tell you this. A grease with moly in it is superior for most applications. This is proven.

We have a gun builder/shooter here in our small town. He shoots 1000 yd competitions.
He used to believe in moly and liked the extended "service interval". But after 2 years of his scores suffering just slightly (which he was writing off to the natural aging process of the human body) he quit using moly and went back to regular bullets.
His scores are right back where they were.
He doesn't use moly anymore but, did say the differences in the scores were small but "small" wins matches. I think for people who do alot of shooting and don't mind groups opening by tiny amounts it is a great product. For others possibly not.

I've been told that moly on factory bullets is ok but applying moly disulphide at home will in fact cause pitting in the bore.

A friends 7mm had pitting full length of the bore in less than 1000rnds and he was only using moly bullets that he had coated himself. He was unsure if the moly had caused this prob or not. He found no diff in accuracy, but was easier to clean.

416SW - moly was not the cause to the pitting.

Even after 10+ years of use, there is still a lot of myth floating around about moly. Moly is safe to use in any gun. It won�t break down and form some mysterious acid nor is it hygroscopic. The problem with moly generally revolves around the condition of the bore "before" moly was burnished into the metal. ALL traces of copper fouling must be removed prior to the use of moly bullets. If any fouling is trapped below the moly, pitting can occur in extreme conditions.

Also as pointed out, moly is not a cure for cleaning and rust protection. You should still run some Kroil through the barrel after each shooting session. Even with moly, there is powder fouling in the barrel and this can cause problems. Remove the powder fouling with a few patches of Kroil, Hoppe�s, or Butch�s. Protect the bore with BreakFree and store.

Moly does not work magic in all rifles. Small bores seem to like it better than big bores in my experience. I do use Moly Bore Prep in all my guns even if I intend to shoot copper jackets. The moly embeds in the smallest crevices within the barrel keeping copper fouling out. This makes removing future copper fouling even easier.

below is what I grabbed from a forum(forget which one) over a year ago and sent to a friend, I just managed to find the email.

Guy Gamello on 10/21/2000 6:37 PM said:
>>There is a posting on Shooters Forum <Highpower>that states that Sinclair has preformed a test with Moly coated bullets and found bore pitting.Is states Sinclair will drop Moly bullets from its next catalog. I hopped Sinclair could respond to let use know if there is any truth to this posting.>>
>>
>>

Dear Mr. Gamello: The Sinclair test is completely correct. You or others may recall that some 3 years past we warned all shooters about the corrosive properties of dry moly (M0S2) and the fact that the inherent acid properties of dry moly could not be neutralized or inhibited. As a result of our efforts to pass on scientific fact, we were subjected to a vicious and sustained attack from a Dan Hackett on a number of shooters bulletin boards. We had pointed out that the only way moly could be inhibited (neutralized) was with a colloidal suspension of MoS2. Such a safe moly formula is now being sold by www.sprinco.com under the name of Plate +. You would be wise to check their web site and review the data presented.

The Parsec Group
Engr/Tech Support
comcentr/hp

Below is the Sinclair reply
Guy Gamello on 10/21/2000 6:37 PM said:

>>
We did some testing over a two year period and found exactly what the Parsec Group had known all along. Molybdenum disulphide is a corrosive material in the powder form that people are using to coat bullets with. It is not inhibited, therefore it contains acidic properties that will pit barrel steel (regardless of wether its chrome or stainless)while in your bore with any moisture present. The Parsec Group neutralized the moly with a colloidal suspension of MoS2. This formula is what the Navy shooting team and others have had great success with. It is being sold by Sprinco? They may be reached at www.sprinco.com for purchasing. This however does not stop the "caking and layering" we experienced while shooting moly. The moly became a hard, glass like material in the bore that was near impossible to remove without vigorous scrubbing with abrasive compounds. Being a bench rest shooter myself, I got shivers up and down my spine scrubbing my Hart and Krieger barrels like this! It just seemed as if our testing lead us to believe that you had to clean just as thoroughly with moly as without if you wanted it to work effectively. Plus we saw no accuracy benefit and ruined three out of ten barrels in the process from pitting. It was like adding another variable to something that already worked. So to answer the original question, we are dropping the coating products but not the bullets that are already coated by the manufaturers. Remember that what we did is in no way a scientific process. But these discoveries were very similar to the Parsec Group -who have studied moly and its effect many years before the shooting industry used it. If you have any additional inquiries feel free to e-mail or call.

Zero
My friend used moly bullets in the rifle after the initial barrel break in, he noticed a drop off in accuracy and took the rifle to a smith, they used a bore scope and discovered pitting full length. the rifle is a rem sendero. the rifle was shooting less than .5" and then started to shoot closer to 1'

416 - I was familiar with Sinclair�s interpretation on moly. I have spoken to them several times about their position. Where I have had a hard time understanding the validity of these �tests� is - there are thousands of shooters, whom have shot millions of moly coated rounds, in every conceivable firearm on the planet. IF moly caused a pitting problem as described, I would expect to see a few thousand guns every year for the past 10+ years destroyed by moly. Where is all this evidence? Are people destroying their barrels with moly and too embarrassed to tell anyone?

Don�t get me wrong - I am not attempting to start an argument. I am simply attempting to understand why we are not seeing all problems that The Parsec Group reported. If 30% of the guns using moly showed pitting, there would be acres of ruined gun barrel junk yards, companies specializing in hazardous moly removal, and every street corner would have a gun smith. What am I missing???

One last thing - I am not completely ignorant or accepting blind faith regarding the use of moly in my rifles. Several of my shooting friends went in together to purchase a Hawkeye Borescope and light kit ($1,100). I scope all my high volume varmint and target guns (some moly) every few months and all my hunting rifles once or twice a year. I check for throat erosion and any other bore problem like pitting. (Before I scope my moly guns, they are cleaned with JB & Sweets.) I have not found any damage yet - who knows, maybe I am lucky.

[This message has been edited by Zero Drift (edited 03-06-2002).]

I've been Moly Coating my own bullets ever since Walt Berger started discussing it in his ads. I could be wrong, but I think his wife was up to 4000+ shots through one of her Bench Rest rifles in the last ad I can remember and the accuracy had not degraded at all. Not sure how long ago that was. And I use Moly in all my centerfire rifles.

To the best of my knowledge, none of my barrels have any pits, but I do clean and Moly Grease the barrels anytime they have been afield or to the Range.

Just doesn't take very long at all to clean them with either bronze or nylon bore brushes and Hoppe's BenchRest.

When they are "clean", and you look into the muzzle, the bore does not have the "hall of mirrors" appearance, but has a "slightly" dull-gray look to it.

Here is the best article I've seen written on it. If you do read it, note the number of rounds through the "hot" Norma 6.5mm with "no discernable loss of accuracy".

http://www.precisionshooting.com/aug98.html

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Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core

bigcountry,

I generally don't start "scrubbing" until accuracy degrades. That depends upon specific cartridge being used and the quality of the barrel.

All of my shooting/hunting buddies are moly fanatics as well. I've yet to discern adverse effects,nor have friends.

I can't comment on anyone else's barrels or experiences,but I shoot it in every tube I have and am delighted to do so...........

I personally know and shoot with probably 40 guys who use moly coated bullets in their HP Match rifles... I've seen literally hundreds of shooters using it. I personally have probably fired upwards of 5,000 moly coated bullets through my various match and hunting rifles. I have never, ever, seen anyone with barrel pitting problems...ever...

I should mention that there is "lubricant grade moly" I understand that it's clean compared to whats found in nature.

Moly is very common in the Rocky Mountain area and most of the worlds supply is there. If someone contacted say AMAX or the Lubrizol corp and talked to a technical person this might be cleared up.

Don,
Moly for bullets should be technical or labratory grade. I believe Dow Corning is the sole manufacturer in the US...

There is an extremely informative segment on moly use, fouling/corrosion and its pluses/minuses on Varmint Al's Reloading page (http://www.cctrap.com/~varmint/arelo.htm ) He uses moly coated bullets (details on a couple of different brands and methods on the same page) to great success. He is also a research scientist/engineer and his methods of examination use scientific approaches. It is one of the best articles I have encountered and well worth a few minutes of your time.
I'm still trying to decide whether or not to shoot them in my 6mm Rem - it's hard to argue with sub-1" 200 yard groups...
Good luck regardless
George Jacoby

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Illegitimi non carborundum...

Dick Wright uses moly coated bullets. They can't be all bad. Pretty much the same story, very little cleaning and more shooting.

I've been using Sierra moly coated bullets. Improvements in accuracy, velocity, ease of cleaning. I like them. I only clean the carbon out of my barrel and leave a film of Hoppes #9.

If moly were causing pitting in barrels, imagine what it would do to a copper bullet jacket. I haven't seen any of my bullets turn green yet, after being impact plated with moly. So I don't buy into the moly causes pitting rumor.

I'm not interested in selling moly to anyone. But it seems that those who actually use moly like it, and have never had a barrel "pitted" from it. It's always someone who "had a friend".

Good shooting, MM

MM,
I think people are saying that moly isn't corosive, but it chemicly changes to something that is at a hight tep

Well now I just confused wether to moly or not.
I wonder if the type/grade of moly you use has an affect.
Kentucky - my fiend was using moly disulphide he bought at a bearing shop, do you think this could be the problem?

Zero do you coat your own or are you using factory coated?

To the others that say they have no pitting have you used a bore scope, because the pitting in my friends 7mm is not visible to the naked eye. I have the rifle in question here and it looks just fine. As stated earlier my friend is unsure if the moly caused the pitting or not.

Would loading a 7mm rem mag hot have caused the pitting? My friend is fanatical about cleaning, could it have been a solvent.
He uses "shooters choice", "sweets 7.62"
and "hoppes benchrest" also acetone between solvents and to remove oil after storing. He does not leave the shooters in for more than an hour, and never leaves sweets in the bore?

The ONLY moly that you should use on bullets is technical or labratory grade. Lubricant grade moly used in automotive or other applications may contain things like graphite or other additives which are both abrasive or may chemically alter under pressure/heat.
Anyone who claims moly changes under heat simply hasn't done his research and read the data available from Dow (the people who make the stuff!)or is using a source of moly other than technical or labratory grade which is pure MSO2.
Your friend is probably using the wrong stuff and it sounds like he is overcleaning his bore to boot! I believe acetone is also hygroscopic! The combination of Sweet's and Shooter's Choice is also known to cause problems like you are mentioning but I personally used the combo for many years but always was careful to completly dry the bore before using the other solvent.
Let me put it this way...David Tubb uses moly. Boots Obermeyer, who makes some of the finest rifle barrels in the country shoots moly coated bullets. Every high master in my HP clubs shoot moly. I do not know one person...not one. Who has had problems...

Ditto everything that KY Nimrod stated.

BBS - You hit the nail on the head - "Moly from a bearing shop". Bad idea. The grade of moly was most likely the problem.

I purchase most of my moly bullets from Walt Berger. The peening process for coating moly is a pain and time consuming. While there are a lot of easy moly kits, I just rely on Mr. Berger to do the job for me.

You are correct that the only way to inspect a bore is with a bore scope. Pitting can be so small that you cannot see it. Generally you can only feel the pitting with a tight patch, or find it through excessive fouling, or through a loss in velocity.

Sweets is perfectly safe "IF" you follow the directions. If you don�t and you decide to leave it in the barrel for long periods, or you mix solvents, or if you do not properly remove the solvent, pitting can occur. Any high ammonia cleaner is hygroscopic and when left in the bore will pull moisture into the barrel. Moisture and a squeaky clean barrel equals rust and pitting. Always use BreakFree (CLP) after using Sweets.

At the end of the day and this discussion, the poor grade of moly was most likely the cause of the problem. Moral - Shortcuts and creativity are NOT rewarded in the shooting sports.

sorry about posting as BBS keep forgeting to change computer at home to 416sw

Well it looks like the bearing moly is the culprit, as I had been told - factory ok, home no good.
Anyone want 1kg of bearing moly?

Personaly, the parsec group has their own snake oil to sell, so their motives are suspect. As for the grade of Moly, with proper cleaning, I'm not sure it matters that much. But the proper cleaning is the question since the introduction of a "plated" lube tends to change the dynamics a bit. I've seen more "evidence" presented that it is more likely the amonia causing the pitting than the moly, and time is NOT an issue. If ammoinia is introduced and there is not any copper for it to work on in immediate contact with it, then it will work on the grain structure of the steel, which starts the pitting process. Since the moly works to prevent the deposit of copper, it would follow that the continued use of an ammonia sovlent would NOT be a good idea. Particularly in the throat area, more moly/carbon less copper.

I have just done a litle resurch about Mo1S2(the moly you want) and Mo2S3 (what someone said was abrasive).In moly (Mo1S2) it has about 7% more salfer that Mo2S3. If it was to chemicly change due to heat there would be extra sulfer in the mix of things. Icould be ronge, but I think that sulfer is the thing in black powder that kills bores if not removed. So if Mo1S2(moly) changes to Mo2S3 than there will be a proble if you just use a bore snake. The Mo2S3 may be abrasive too. HOWEVER, I DID NOT FIND ANYTHING THAT SAID THAT MOLY DOSE CHANGE TO Mo2S3.