OK, so I am going to start reloading. What do I get first? I am reading the manuals.

14 January 2002, 15:50

And after reading the manuals, there seems to be a lot of salesmanship in them. No shortage of opinions...or advice.

My reason for wanting to reload is to load for and regulate a few double rifles that won't group factory ammo. I am just about ready to start to acquire the gear, but first, I do not want to end up with dozens of boxes of each type of primer, powder, and bullets, as leftovers from loads that don't do it.

So, since my calibers are metric, 7X65R, 8X57JR, and 9.3X74R,it looks like the IMR 3031 and 4350 are good powders to start with since they are mentioned in several references. Any other old standbys?

But first, any suggestions regarding brass? RWS, Sellier, Norma?

Primers?

Hoping for a series of powders and primers that can be used for several different rifles.

Input is appreciated.

14 January 2002, 19:06

ricciardelli

For the 7x65R...Federal 210 primers and either IMR-4064, 4350 or 4831.

For the 8x57...Remington 9-1/2 primers and there are tons of powders available.

For the 9.3...Winchester large rifle primers and N-140 powder is a good place to start...

Go to http://stevespages.com/page8c.htm and browse...

[This message has been edited by ricciardelli (edited 01-14-2002).]

14 January 2002, 20:27

<.>

Sounds really complicated . . . Riciardielli.

Federal makes an excellent primer. Period. They will function effectively for everything you shoot.

One powder is pretty much the same as the next. Choose powders that work for YOU and what you have to load.

Once you start getting serious about accuracy or working up a precision load, you may want to shop around for powders, primers, brass, bullets . . . all the components. But for starters, get the basics and buy good quality equipment.

I shoot a lot of .223, mostly "plinking" in an AR, and buy bulk quanities of 55 gr. Winchester bullets because they're CHEAP.

I have a Rem. 700 PSS too, in .223 Ackely Improved. For that gun and shooting eggs at 350 metres, I refine my load substantially. But start with basic components and develop your loads. You won't end up with stuff you can't use.

I use "range pickups" for brass for the AR and my handguns. Cleaned and polished, they're fine. For precision in the PSS, I weigh, measure, polish everything by mfg. lots.

I don't have any reloading equipment or components that I no longer use. Be skeptical on the sales pitches. This board can give you pointers on buying equipment.

I think accumulating an esoteric selection of primers for different calibers is a lot of busy work -- especially since you haven't specified the guns you're shooting this calibers in.

15 January 2002, 05:01

LE270

IMR 3031 and 4350 powders are good ones to begin with; having those two will allow you to make excellent loads for very many rifle calibers.

I recommend that you get a supply of regular (non-magnum) primers. Although there are differences between different brands of primers, don't worry about that now; get whatever widely-used brand (CCI, Federal, Winchester, Remington, etc.) you can get easily and use that until you run out or you understand why you need something else.

You may already know the following, but I'll post it anyway:

For equipment, you need a press, loading dies and shell holde(s) (if your different calibers all have the same rim size, you use the same shell holder for them) for whatever calibers you are loading for, a good loading scale, case lube, and a funnel for getting powder into the cases without spilling it. For the next purchase step I would recommend a priming tool such as the Lee Auto Prime (RCBS and other manufacturers make similar tools) and a caliper for measuring case length and overall cartridge length.

You will then (after at most two reloadings of once-fired cases) need to measure your cases to see whether they have become too long, and if so you will some method of case trimming (I like the Lee system) and a tool for chamfering the inside and outside of the case mouths.

Many people would recommend that you have a powder measure (in addition to the powder scale) -- I regard them as unnecessary if you are loading small amounts (maybe 20 or fewer rounds) of rifle ammunition at a time, because you can usually weigh each charge more accurately than you can get the measure to dump charges, and it takes about as much time to set up the measure. (Ball powders go through powder measures much better and measure more accurately than stick-type powders; all the IMR powders are stick-type.)

After that, it's up to you -- get what you find that you want or need after you understand why you want or need it. For example, many people clean their brass, but it's not absolutely necessary, strictly speaking. Cleaning primer pockets with a tool for that purpose is a good idea.

Deburring flash holes is supposed to improve accuracy, as is turning necks. But those are steps that I regard as being for advanced loaders -- unnecessary for beginners.

15 January 2002, 16:32

Jameister

Thank you for your suggestions. I find that Cabelas carries a reloader starter kit, and an advanced reloader starter kit.

these are in the 300-500 range.

Any better package deals to start with?

thx again.
jameister

15 January 2002, 22:10

<auto>

Well, you are going to have to decide if you want to load single stage or progressive. I started out on a single stage, as it is a whole lot easier to understand what is going on and why. So, if you should happen to want to go the single stage route also, you will need to decide which press you want to by. There are lots of different sizes of presses available. New and used. Yes used presses can be a bargain, if the press has a lifetime warranty. You will also need a set of dies for each caliber you load. A good set of scales will be necessary to weigh the powder you are going to be using. A good powder measure will be a handy thing to drop the powder in to the scale pan for weighing. I use a powder trickler to get just the right amount of powder in each piece of brass, when I want things to be as accurate as possible. There are some electric scales and powder measures that work as a combined effort for this also. Maybe you would rather buy a starter kit that has most of these things in it already. May be as cheap to do it that way. E-bay has a reloading section, and I have seen kits made by RCBS selling for around $250.00. Dillon is my recommendation if you should want to go the progressive route. Lots of options and choices to make. I guess that why I have sooo many different cans of gun powder on my shelf.They are all different. I never could be satisfied that a single powder would be right for everything. Light bullets need one thing and heavier bullets may shoot better with something different. This could go on forever.

15 January 2002, 23:59

Matt in Virginia

"reloader starter kit.

these are in the 300-500 range.

Any better package deals to start with?"

Jameister,
I've been going the same process in recent months. Not being new to reloading but rather new to my own reloading/room equipment. I would suggest that a "package deal" is generally going to be a compromise. You'll get a couple of things you really like and some closet fodder. I suggest that you look at Sinclair International( www.sinclairintl.com )and buy each piece seperately. Their service is in a class all its own.

My suggestions to consider would be:

Press: Forster Co-Ax, Redding Ultramag, or RCBS Rockchucker $100 to $200

Dies: Forster BR, Ultra, or Redding. $40 to $120 depending on features.

Scales: RCBS 10-10 and/or Pact Digital Precision or Redding No. 2. $45 to $150

Trimmer: Wilson/Sinclair package. The one with the stand and clamp minus the Starrett micrometer. $51.50

Priming tool: Sinclair Phase Two, RCBS Primeguard, RCBS bench mounted tool. $65 to $100

Tumbler: RCBS Sidewinder, Dillon CV-500 or 2000. Also consider a media seperator. $85 to $200

Powder Measures: Harrell's Premium Culver or Redding 3BR $100 to $225

Just some suggestions. Take them for what they are worth and listen to the more experienced gentlemen here.

Regards, Matt.

[This message has been edited by Matt in Virginia (edited 01-15-2002).]

16 January 2002, 04:30

<.>

Hold on a second!!!

Sinclair provides precision reload equipment for precision bench rest / varmint loaders. If you're not trying to hit a hen's egg at 1000 meters most of this stuff is unnecessary.

Multi-stage presses are fine IF you're planning to load ammo for high volume consumption -- like IPSC competition. Dillon is the brand for multi-stage presses.

But if you're loading for accurate rifle loads -- which it sounds like what you're doing -- RCBS is tried and true, readily available, guaranteed for life no questions asked even if you screwed it up yourself.

The RCBS Rock Chucker is the heavy duty press. It's all cast steel and very stiff. I use a smaller RCBS -- HC-5. This one is cast alum. but sufficient for the calibers I reload. I have a friend who reloads 300 Win Mag with this press. It works for that caliber, but the Rock Chucker would probably be more accurate.

I have an RCBS case trimmer. It works fine now that I have torqued down the trimmer head and put loctite on the screw. I suggested to RCBS that they secure the head with two screws. Seems like a weak point in the design.

Lyman, Forrster etc. make good case trimmers. You'll need one for rifle reloads.

Check out http://www.sinclairintl.com/ -- but don't get overwhelmed by all the fancy measurement tools.

Invest in a good quality veneer caliper. STEEL !!! The plastic ones are toys. A local pawn shop here has a nice selection of veneer calipers. RCBS makes a very nice one at a reasonable price.

I use an RCBS Uniflo powder measure. For ball powder this works quite well. I use it for loading handgun ammo and for .223 when I'm loading ammo for the AR. When I'm loading for the Rem. 700 and super tight groups, I weigh each charge of powder.

RCBS makes two scales (at least) Redding, Forrster, Lyman.

I like RCBS because it's good quality equipment at a reasonable price. Mostly I like their warranty. They replace ANY of their equipment if it breaks. Even if you break it. I messed up a primer tool and they sent me a new one -- a newer model too. They sent me the "pistol die" for my Uniflow powder measure, no charge, not even postage.

Sorry, I don't care for Lee reloading stuff. It just doesn't seem to have the quality.

I have an RCBS primer tool, actually two -- a bench mounted and a hand tool. Both work well, but I like the spendy one that Sinclair offers. But I'm not spending $100 for a primer tool.

I think maybe (without having looked at a specific kit) "starter kits" are OK IF you're getting the press you want and other quality gear you need. Lots of kits toss in items like "loading blocks." I use the plastic inserts from ammo boxes for "loading blocks." Buying a board with holes in it is a waste of money.

So, where are you in all this reloading gear?

16 January 2002, 07:15

LE270

Absolutely stay away from progressive loading equipment, at least for now. Progressive loading is valuable only if you are loading a very large quantity of ammo that is exactly alike. If, for example, you were loading hundreds of rounds of pistol ammunition then a progressive loader would make sense.

There is no need to buy expensive loading dies -- RCBS dies are perfectly good for your purposes. In fact, I like Lee dies (some Lee equipment is actually better than more expensive stuff, and some is worse) and would recommend them if they come in the calibers you need. I think the Lee Auto Prime tool -- you can get it for about $10 -- is as good as those that cost three or more times as much. Lee shell holders are the equal of any others at any price. I would not recommend a Lee press -- my experience shows that they are too weak to stand up to hard use.

I don't recommned the electronic scales -- I have a RCBS 505 scale and find it to be fully adequate for any purpose I've ever needed, and it weighs to 1/10 of a grain. I use Lee powder scoops to put powder from a container (I use a small glass jar) onto the scale -- you can also use the scoop as a trickling device to trickle the last kernel(s) of powder to get the exact weight you want.

I recommend that you look at Midway ( www.midwayusa.com )and Grafs ( www.grafs.com ) as suppliers of reloading tools and supplies, if saving money is important to you.

I'm wary of the reloading packages because, as several others noted above, they contain things that you need and also things that you don't need or want.

[This message has been edited by LE270 (edited 01-16-2002).]

16 January 2002, 07:37

<inspector>

What you really need is a winning lottery ticket!--Kidding of course!!
Started loading in the 60's with a single stage press with a primer feeder. The primer feeder didn't work out for me. (I now use a Hand primer for single stage work). I had an accurate scale (Balance beam), spray lube, a caliper, and a funnel. I don't remember which dies I had, but they were not bottom of the line but close to it.
If I had it to do over again, I would start out the same way. Doing 'em one at the time is the best way to gain confidence.
Dillon dominates my shop now. I like their Quality and the way they handle my questions.
just my $.02 worth--Roy

16 January 2002, 11:21

raven045

Might also want to check out the Hornady stuff...I've used it for 20 years and thousands of rounds. www.hornady.com.

16 January 2002, 14:00

LE270

I notice that you also asked about brass and bullets. As for brass, get whatever you can get, at the best price you can find -- meaning that there's no sufficient reason, at least at the beginning, to think that one brand is superior to another.

Choosing bullets is a more difficult problem because there are so many different ones and they do have different shapes, characteristics, weights, accuracy possibility, and so on. You will find many discussions of different bullet makes and types in the forums here, as well as many opinions about their merits.

Probably the best way to proceed is to decide what weight bullet you'd like to use as well as what type, and then go with that for a start. I think that most reloaders end up with many different bullets and different bullet weights, as there are so many differences and most people tend to want to try as many as possible.

16 January 2002, 18:54

Jameister

I am reading this nightly, and your input is excellent. Right now I am tending toward a small "package deal" with Dillon components or the RCBS packages that seem commonly advertised. Manual scale balance type, and what else I dont know.

Siince I will be loading mainly for light caliber german make single shot and double rifles, I doubt that high volume will be required.

Hunting, not competitoion, is my ddrive.

thanks again, and keep on keeping on.

Jameister

16 January 2002, 19:19

LE270

quote:
Originally posted by Jameister:
Right now I am tending toward a small "package deal" with Dillon components or the RCBS packages that seem commonly advertised.

The Dillon reloading presses are progressive machines, and, in my opinion, that would be completely wrong for you, given your needs and what you want to accomplish, even though Dillon equipment has an excellent reputation and is of high quality.

An RCBS package, with a single-stage press, would be a good move, assuming you are going for a package.

[This message has been edited by LE270 (edited 01-16-2002).]

16 January 2002, 19:59

Eterry

I definitely think you should not start with a progressive press. It is so much easier to use a single stage press and learn the mechanics of reloading. I started with a used RCBS junior press, a used Ohaus scales, Lee dies and a lube tray. Spray lube is easier, but I would not change anything else, to start with.
Good luck and good shooting

16 January 2002, 20:46

<.>

RCBS press HS-5 is a single stage that uses a "piggy back" adapter" for a progressive set up later if that's what you want to do. It's strong, rugged, well designed and guaranteed against everything. I use one. It's a nice press.

The RCBS RockChucker is a brick privy. Really heavy duty. It's a few dollars more. I don't think it adapts to a progressive. But it's an "industry standard" for a single stage press.

You sound like you're in the market for single stage. The way I work is to do one or two processes at a session for maybe 200 or 300 pieces of brass. De-cap and size. Set aside the lot. Prep brass if that's what you're going to do.

I trim, turn necks, deburr flash-holes, uniform primer pockets. This is excessive for hunting ammo. Check OAL on the brass and trim if necessary . . .

Then I sit and prime the lot. Set aside. I found "shoe boxes" at Home Depot -- $1.00 each and clear pastic. They hold about 200 rds. on plastic ammo blocks (pick ups at the gravel pit for 9mm and 45 ACP ammo).

I keep records in a spiral notebook -- one for each caliber. I keep notes in the "lots" on post-it notes. I put a "lot number/date" on the post-it and the same number/date in the spiral. That way I can keep track of the brass.

I keep notes on stuff like headstamps, mixed lots of brass, how many times the brass has been loaded. I take the spiral out to the range so I can make notes about how the ammo feeds, shoots, etc.

Down the road, this data becomes valuable.

Keep records on you reloads like you keep records on your check book -- or maybe BETTER than you keep records on the check book!

Sooner or later you're going to want to purchase a "powder trickler." I found one at a gun show, RCBS (I like their stuff) for $10. Retail I think maybe they're $15. The trickler works well for bringing a charge up to weight on the scale. If you're "dipping" the charge this speeds up the weigh out. If you're "match loading" ammo, the trickler brings the load up to "gnat's ass" spec. Buy one now . . . and then you won't wonder why you didn't buy one sooner! I like the RCBS because the "tube" is threaded and "drives" the grains out the end. Some models just have a smooth tube and expect that the powder will "wiggle" out of the end. Redding has a trickler that weighs a pound. That's nice for keeping the thing steady while you're "trickling."

Sinclair sells the Redding trickler. GET A CATALOG from Sinclair!!!

Nobody's pointed this out yet. Reloading gear is like owning a nice rifle. It's all "tool & die." Precision machinery. My bench is a "toy chest" of really cool stuff. Every item is a jewel of sorts.

Tonight I spent a couple hours at the bench seating bullets on some .223 brass that I'm going to fire form for Ackley Improved. I've trimmed the brass, de-burred the flash hole, uniformed the primer pocket, turned the neck, and now we're getting ready to fire form the .223 Rem. into .223 Ackley brass.

Working at the bench, radio going in the background, surrounded by nice tools. It's as good a time as sitting at the bench shooting at the X ring.

Ten years ago, I reloaded to save money. Five years ago, I reloaded to produce custom ammo for my guns.

Now I reload because I like to reload, and I don't have to drive to the range to do it.

17 January 2002, 09:42

boltman

I think you'd be very well served by a RCBS rockchucker master reloading kit. It contains most everything you need to start reloading including their excellent rockchucker press, however it doesn't include calipers and dies. The kit can be had for around $230 from several mail order outfits. Excellent calipers can be had for $20 from midway and they've got good prices on dies also. Stay away from progressive reloaders, they're for pistol shooters where quality of ammo isn't a big consideration. You'll be hard pressed to shoot enough ammo out of a double to ever need a progressive setup. With your selection of calibers you'll probably be limited in brass selection to whatever you can get your hands on. You can pretty much cover the entire spectrum of primer needs with two primers-federal 210 and 215, I've found no need for any others in over 20 years of loading. For the powders all I can say is look through the reloading manuals and pick the ones that tend to match the loads your rifles were regulated with. You really don't know how your rifle with react to a certain powder until you shoot it with that powder so that's a guessing game.

16 January 2002, 22:22

<Hoghead>

I would also suggest the RCBS Rockchucker Master Reloader Kit. It has everything you will need to start reloadind except dies and shell holders. I would also buy a Lee hand primer tool. They are cheap $10, And work like a charm. Also, some might disagree with me but I have found that when using the extruded powders (Reloader 25, IMR 7828 etc) I use a Lee Perfect Powder Measure. This unit is also not very expensive ($20) and I have found that it hardly ever binds up when measuring the extruded powders. The measure that came with the RCBS kit had a tendency to bind up. Whatever you decide I am sure you will get many hours of enjoyment from reloading. I know I do and so do all of the people that reload that I know. Have fun and ENJOY!!!

16 January 2002, 23:25

<redleg155>

I'll put in another recommendation for the Rock Chucker Master Reloading kit. That's what I got to get me going. I wasn't about to pay for factory 9.3x64 Brenneke loads.

redleg

17 January 2002, 12:47

R-WEST

Jameister -
1. Ask LOTS of questions, and sort the wheat from the chaff. Never use anyone else's load unless you check it out in a reputable manual, or two. This is the best forum I've ever seen for getting GOOD advice.
2. Try to find an area free of distractions; BS'ing with your buddies or listening to the wife grumble at the kids is NOT the time to be charging cases. That is not to say you should not have a knowledgable person around to help you get started - he'll know enough to be quiet.
3. Read everything in as many reloading manuals as you can. Nothing beats knowledge.
4. Shop around. The Net is loaded with sellers of reloading equipment trying to get you to buy from them. There are some pretty good deals out there. www.natchezss.com and www.midsouthshooterssupply.com are excellent sources. Natchez has bi-monthly specials (RCBS dies for $19.92 and/or Reddings at $25.00 come to mind).
5. Enjoy! This is a hobby for a lifetime.
R-WEST

17 January 2002, 13:30

<auto>

Okay...I just got home from "Huntington's Sportsmens Store", here in Oroville, and on the shelf was a reloading starter kit. It includes among other things, a Rockchucker press, an RCBS 5-0-5 scale, RCBS powder measure, a case length turning machine with collets, a set of dies of your choice, a Speer reloading manual, a couple of tubes of case lube, a lube pad, a shell holder, and a load of small items that I can't remember. It looked like to me that it has everything needed to reload with. Cost: $320.00
That trip kinda made me wish I was starting all over. Oh yeah, there were primer pockets brushes, and some other stuff, too. I would guess many good gun stores sell this RCBS kit for the same amount of money. If they don't...they can.

18 January 2002, 05:20

R-WEST

auto -

That's the "Rock Chucker Master" reloading kit. It's available from various places for a few dollars less than $320.00. I think natchez had a special on it for around $230.00; don't know if it's still on special or not. Mid-South sells it for about $270.00.

If you are starting from scratch, as Jameister is, one of these kits is a good way to go. I don't know of anything that is in there that you wouldn't use, sooner or later, and it's definitely cheaper than buying the components separately.

R-WEST

18 January 2002, 10:12

Fritz Kraut

quote:
Originally posted by Jameister:
[B]
But first, any suggestions regarding brass? RWS, Sellier, Norma?
B]

Jameister,

my choice fo brass would be RWS or Norma - they are both of superior quality. Perhaps the only difference is the stamp - both firms are owned by Nitro-Nobel.

Sellier isnï¿½t bad, but there have been some comment in the Swedish fora about too tight ignition channel: the decapper needle get stuck.

If you can get Norma powder, you have some useful loads at www.norma.cc

Best regards,

Fritz

19 January 2002, 00:56

aHunter

I also would recommend visiting the Norma homepage for data. Since you are new to reloading DON`T read the following: Some Norma powders behave a "lot" like Alliantï¿½s Reloder series. Iï¿½m sure you can find some threads about this, if you go back long enough.

As this are different charges from principally the "same" powder, you have to start low and work up, anyway.

For brass I would recommend Lapua, then Norma. Normaï¿½s Jaktmatch load with FMJï¿½s is cheap. Good for training and stocking up cases.

A top factory load should be Winchesterï¿½s 286 grs Nosler Partition. An identical load is marketed by Sako.

For data go to

http://www.nosler.com/ballisticroom.html

Congratulations for your decision for these calibers. Keep us posted about your results!

Hermann

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[This message has been edited by aHunter (edited 01-18-2002).]