fouling shots

10 January 2002, 19:32

rufous

fouling shots

Is it important to use the same powder for fouling shots as the powder used when shooting groups? I have heard that different powders can foul differently and if you are trying to get best accuracy then you should foul the bore with the same powder. For fouling shots I would ideally like to get rid of some powder that I am not otherwise using but if I am shortchanging myself then I will just use RL25 if shooting groups with RL25 etc. Thanks, Rufous.

11 January 2002, 09:44

ricciardelli

No, it is not important...unles of course you are doing 1000 yard competition.

11 January 2002, 00:48

<Don G>

I agree with ric, unless you are planning on 600 yards plus the powder will not matter.

(I'm assuming both are rifle powders and the velocity is close to the same.)

The Palma shooters have found that Varget does not like fouling shots from other powders, but they start at 700 yards.

Don

11 January 2002, 05:41

DB Bill

I disagree. After every shot there is some residue in the barrel including unburnt or partially burnt powder and this can and will affect accuracy. If you are testing new loads you want to cut down on as many variables as possible...not doing it will absolutely throw the first shot of your new group (and maybe the 2nd shot) away from the others. If you are happy with 4 in a group and a flyer there isn't any problem...test it yourself and see.

11 January 2002, 06:01

Stonecreek

The main function of the "fouling shot" is not so much to foul the barrel, but rather clean the residue oil and solvents out of the bore. That's why I would think that it's pretty irrelevent, within reason, what load you shoot as a fouler.

11 January 2002, 06:04

ricciardelli

DB Bill...

You show me your targets, and I'll show you mine!

The idea behind a fouling shot is to do one thing...foul the barrel. That means burning off any lubricant or solvent that may be remaining behind, and to place a SMALL amount of debris in the barrel. As long as the powder is a smokeless powder, as long as the fouling bullet is the same type (cast or jacketed) as the shots you are firing for record are the same it makes no difference.

I routinely use underpowered and factory ammo for fouling shots, both before working up loads and before going hunting.

My rifles, all "out of the box" factory rifles group around 1/2" for 5 shots at 200 yards.

And, my first shot at game is generally the only shot at that particular animal, since no others are needed.

11 January 2002, 07:25

DB Bill

ricciardelli....I guess you've got me and all I can say are two things...(1) you must be the luckiest shooter alive to find "out-of-the-box" factory rifles that shoot 1/4 moa all the time for 5-shot groups(please forward 6 lottery numbers between 1 and 51 for the California lottery and I will split the winnings 50/50) and (2) you should start a shooting school and give lessons or at least exhibitions.

11 January 2002, 11:42

ricciardelli

I don't play the lottery...

And I have had a shooting school and have given lessons....

11 January 2002, 12:44

Nickudu

Somehow, it has never occured to me to fire the often necessary fouling shots with anything but the loading I planned to use. Thinking a bit about it, I suppose one could not use disimilar bullets to foul the bore for loadings with Barnes "X" bullets. I have always felt very lucky in having purchased a goodly number of highly accurate out-of-the-box rifles but I have never had one that shot a 1/4", regardless of how carefully I went over the rifle or broke in the barrel.
Sounds like I'm about to learn a few new tricks? That's fine with me.

11 January 2002, 12:50

<bigcountry>

1/2" groups at 200 yards with all out of the box factory guns, wow Where did you say that shooting school was and when will be the first class.

11 January 2002, 13:22

<Gary Rihn>

I'm with the group that says fouling shots with a different powder *can* make a difference.

Derrick Martin, one of the best AR-15 shooters I've ever shot beside, has info in his new book about it. Some combos make no difference, but there are certain combos named that show definite bad tendencies. I can look them up if needed, but can't recall them off the top of my head. (I don't tend to remember those things, cause I always shoot my foulers with the same powder as my "record" or hunting ammo).

11 January 2002, 14:40

DB Bill

My New Year's resolution was to try and be more polite....does anyone know the French expression for "in your dreams" (I was going to say BullShit but I really am trying to be a nicer person this year)?

12 January 2002, 08:15

ricciardelli

http://stevespages.com/targets.html

12 January 2002, 09:54

Nickudu

DB - I am so proud of you!!

Ricciardelli - I have visited your site a number of times. You are a fine shooter.
I'm happy with such groups at 100 yards!

[This message has been edited by Nickudu (edited 01-12-2002).]

12 January 2002, 11:13

DB Bill

riccairdelli or should I say Mr. Ricciardelli that is some fine shooting for "out-of-the-box" rifles...very, very impressive. Having said that, however, as I look at these beautiful 200-yard groups I think you are measuring them incorrectly.

The first group, again which is benchrest quality for a "200-yard group", appears to be about 3 bullet diameters wide which would make it around 0.448"....that is 0.224" + 2 half-diameters.

The 2nd group of 0.580" also with the .22/250 has room for at least two full diameters between the shots at the upper left and lower right...this would make the size 0.672" and maybe a little more.

3rd group of 0.342" with the 6mm Rem looks like it is 3 diameters high which would make it 0.448".

4th group of 0.489" with the .25/06 also looks to have a spacing of 2 diameters between the top right and lower shot so this would make it 0.771".

5th group of 0.717" also with the .25/06 has room for about 3 diameters between the lower left and upper right shots so that would be 0.771" + the two 1/2 diameters or about 1" plus.

6th group of 0.303" with the 7mm RemMag looks like it is between 2.5 and 3 diameters which would make it between 0.426" and 0.568".

Again...what ever they really measure that is some damn fine shooting but I still believe I'm correct about the residual effect of different powders in the barrel having an effect on subsequent shots with a different powder.

[This message has been edited by DB Bill (edited 01-12-2002).]

12 January 2002, 11:46

Mike375

My rifles, all "out of the box" factory rifles group around 1/2" for 5 shots at 200 yards.

Wow!!!! That would place you very well in either Light or Heavy Varmint class benchrest competition for the 200 yard range.

As to the question my experience has been that it depends on the rifle.

In general a rifle like a bench gun in 6mm PPC or 22/250 won't change its point of impact by much with different fouling, whether that be different powder, different bullet types, clean barrel, warm fouled barrel or cold hard fouling.

On the other hand a rifle like a 375 or 458 with a light barrel that is also a crappy barrel can show some significant changes in point of impact.

Mike

12 January 2002, 16:43

ricciardelli

Apparently your "appearances" need adjusting. The coin in that picture (for size comparison) is a United States 1-cent piece (commonly called a penny). The diameter of that coin is just a hair under 1/2-inch...

As I stated, this was done with out-of-the-box factory rifles. The only changes I made to them was that I totally free-floated each and every barrel and polished the factory Ruger trigger.

The .22-250 targets were the only ones shot with a heavy barrel rifle...the standard Ruger "varmint" barrel. The rest were with sporting length and weight.

With patience and perserverence this can be accomplished. More patience and perserverence with some than with others. It took me 6 years to finally find a load that shot that well in the .25-06!

But, in my mind, that is what loading your own is all about...

I've said all I have to say on this subject...

[This message has been edited by ricciardelli (edited 01-12-2002).]

12 January 2002, 18:48

DB Bill

Once again let me apologize. I just didn't understand...mea cupa!

I should have known better as I have been to Montana a few times and I remember how my bankroll got rapidly smaller and smaller as I paid the out-of-state license fees. What other explanation could there be for pennies with a diameter of 0.75" everywhere else in the Free World shrink to "a hair under 1/2" in Montana.

12 January 2002, 20:55

ricciardelli

Duh...

Blush...

Grimmace...

But...I will admit when I am wrong...the penny is 3/4" not 1/2"...

Maybe that is why I always think I am being short changed?

[This message has been edited by ricciardelli (edited 01-12-2002).]

13 January 2002, 09:03

Mike375

DB Bill,

Even if ricciardelli's groups with those factory rifles are only good for 3/4" at 200 yards, he would still place well in Sporter Class benchrest competition.

Mike

12 January 2002, 22:50

<Gary Rihn>

quote:
Originally posted by DB Bill:
I should have known better as I have been to Montana a few times and I remember how my bankroll got rapidly smaller and smaller as I paid the out-of-state license fees. What other explanation could there be for pennies with a diameter of 0.75" everywhere else in the Free World shrink to "a hair under 1/2" in Montana.

13 January 2002, 03:24

<Dave King>

DB Bill

I too looked at those groups ricciardelli
has posted and here's what I gleaned.

I used a representative sample of a U.S. one cent coin and it measured .749 inch.
(The following is assuming ricciardelli used a standard one cent coin and not a remanufactured "fake" coin. I say this for the sceptics and have no reason to believe it's anything other than a "real" penny.)

In the first group I measured the .750 coin as 1.55 inch on my monitor, the ratio is therefore .484 and I can now measure the group directly from the computer screen. I measured the entire group as 1.060 and now need to apply the .484 ratio to get the group size of .513. I still need to subtract one bullet dia. of .224 and get a final group size of .289 inch. Ricciardelli has it listed as .260 and I'm sure we have a little different criteria for measureing the group so I'll allow him the .03 difference.

I get .289 for the first group.

The second group can be measured in the same manner. I now get 1.31 as the penny size so the ratio for this picture is .573. I get a group size of 1.46 inch and ratio that to .834 then subtract on bullet diameter of .224 to get a group size of .612.

2nd group size from my guess = .612 inches

Repeating the same procedure I get the following for some more of his groups.

3rd group size is .348 inch

4th group size is .488 inch

5th group size is .731 inch

6th group size is .339 inch

I'm sure Ricciardelli measures the groups a little different than I do but I can easily believe the numbers he's represented are correct according to the info presented and his methodology.

13 January 2002, 06:27

Mike375

That is an average of .25 moa at 200 yards for 5 5 shot groups.

Makes you wonder how American target barrel makers make a living and also the custom action makers.

Is there any way Australian benchrest shooters can get these factory rifles as they are obviously quite different to the ones currently exported to Australia.

Mike