Hawk Bullets?

20 February 2003, 16:14

POP

Hawk Bullets?

What is your opinion of these bullets. What calibers did you test these in? What is velocity and accuracy like? How did they perform on game?

20 February 2003, 16:44

Savage99

There is a thread here and at Hunt America and 24 hrcampfire where someone blew up another gun with the first shot with a Hawk bullet.

I looked at one and the base is quite open and the core is not secured.

Tell me more. I am willing to learn. My question is with all the bullets out there for sale why use a bullet that has an open base in the jacket?

21 February 2003, 02:11

Talking Head

I was all set to buy a bunch of these bullets for my .348 Win. because there is not a lot of selection out there for this caliber. Luckily (for me anyway) at the same time there several postings on the different boards alluded to by Savage99 of different people blowing up their rifles while using these bullets.Like he said, these people had been shooting other loads just previous to switching to the Hawk bullets, and on the first shot with the Hawks their rifles blew.There were a lot of different opinions thrown about,sloppy chambers,etc.,but to me the stories were to similar to discount the bullet as being the cause. I just don't believe in coincidence. Anyway you should go back and check out the threads mentioned and make up you're own mind. I know I'm not gonna buy any.

21 February 2003, 02:26

POP

That is scary! [Mad]

21 February 2003, 02:55

jeffeosso

quote:
Originally posted by Savage99:
Tell me more. I am willing to learn. My question is with all the bullets out there for sale why use a bullet that has an open base in the jacket?

I shoot hawk in my 500.. works great...

To the point of exclusion, all FMJ bellets are open based, all steel jacketed solids are open based, including woodleigh, and the BMG (but that's redundant)

I find THE problem with hawk bullets, used on game in several different rifles, is that the softs are TOO soft, even with a .065 jacket.

Personally, I doubt that the hawk bullet was the actor in the exploding rifle, and if it was, Hawk would be out of biz.

If the gun did NOT blow up in the breach, rather some point past, say 3", then it is physically impossible, as a pipe (which is what a barrel is) would rupture at EXACTLY the midpoint of the projectile and the blockage, with a slight bais towards the blockage, due to the taper.

Jeffe

21 February 2003, 10:20

Savage99

quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:
Originally posted by Savage99:
Tell me more. I am willing to learn. My question is with all the bullets out there for sale why use a bullet that has an open base in the jacket?
I shoot hawk in my 500.. works great...

To the point of exclusion, all FMJ bellets are open based, all steel jacketed solids are open based, including woodleigh, and the BMG (but that's redundant)

Jeff,

These bullet are open at BOTH ends! That's the point

Personally, I doubt that the hawk bullet was the actor in the exploding rifle, and if it was, Hawk would be out of biz.

If the gun did NOT blow up in the breach, rather some point past, say 3", then it is physically impossible, as a pipe (which is what a barrel is) would rupture at EXACTLY the midpoint of the projectile and the blockage, with a slight bais towards the blockage, due to the taper.

Jeff,

Then it's ok? Are you saying that if the rifle had not blown up and another shot had been fired that would be ok?

Jeffe

21 February 2003, 14:22

Snapper

Pop
The following post was also on the site about hawk bullets where a gun was blown up. I thought it should also be posted here. I've also shot a few and had no problems, but worked up a load from start.

Snapper

I have used 2-3 thousand of the Hawk bullets over the past about 20 years, and in about 16 different calibers, both hot shot and antique calibers. I have never had a problem. However for some years I was in a position to analize the complaints to a bullet manufacturor, which is an excellant place to really find out how many ways handloaads can go wrong.
I remember two particular incidents with the Gibbs cartridges that did about the same thing you discribe. Fortunately I was able to inspect the rifle, and loads completely. I found the same thing caused both incidents. The reloader did not check the neck thickness on his cases. Depending on the brand of brass you use and the loads you use, this problem can creap up on you as soon as the second reload. When this happens, the bullet is pinched in the neck and does not expand enough to release the bullet. I can assure you that it doesn't take but a little of this situation to run pressures thru the roof. Accuracy goes to pot first, and then the damage starts. It can be destructive in one case and not the next one , everything else the same. The brass is flowing forward into the neck. The same thing applies to cases that are too long for the chamber. Just as easy to have and just as destructive.

In one case I had a fine double rifle, in 400/360, which uses 9.3 dia bullets. I had a bunch of RWS reformed brass I had reloaded over twenty times, and at the low pressures, it worked fine, but I loaded a few with Norma cases, same loads and die settings. On the second reloading, about half of the Norma loaded cases would not fully enter the chamber.
With blue die ink I was able to determine that there was a thick ring at the rear of the neck and over the base of the bullet. If those could have been chambered, my results would probably have been the same as yours.
I once owned a .30 Ackley imp., and found that there was only one brand of 30/06 cases that I could use to form these from , without having the necks too thick. Of course, in these hot formed case ctgs, you can set the neck back with improperly set dies very easially, but I have never seen this cause actually destroy a rifle. Usually it just shows a hot load or maybe a loose primer. If you turn the necks on all formed cases, accuracy will also be better. Turn the outside, don't ream the inside.
Mr. Howell is right, I would guess that your load was a little hot to begin with
so that anything else could push it over the edge. I am constantly amased at the extreme hot loads most reloaders use with no problems at all. Testimony to the strength of the available rifles I guess.
On any cartridge that you have to form the cases for, after forming, check the neck thickness on 4 sides of the neck and the length.
On the first two or three firings , check the length and neck wall thickness.
Most will grow a little the first reloadings and then will gradually quit. But you still need to check about every other reloading, just to be safe. And remember, different brands and calibers may often form differently.
I have one 375 ctg I form cases for that uses reformed .35 welen cases beautifully, but reforming from 30/06 or .270 cases results in neck variations and problems.

I have had the use of pressure equipment and seen the sometimes large differences that just switching brands of bullets will make, yet still , most shooters will switch brands or types of bullets with their tried and true max
load, and wonder why they blow primers. Depending on what you are using for a start comparison, these increases in pressure can be as much as 10,000=15,000psi. If you have a hot load to start with, or are maybe using a heavier brand of cases at the same time, it can easially be distructive.
You can not switch bullets or cases without working up from very reduced loads.
I saw a new .338 Winchester rifle tested that was giving about 150 fps
above any published factory load , and this was with Winchester factory
ammo. To get this back down to reasonable pressures, we had reduce
loads by about 10% or more. Chamberings and rifles are different too.
You have to find out what your rifle accepts. Remember the rule of thumb is that to increase velocity by 5%, you have to increase pressures by 10%.
That is a lot and tells me that that last 50fps in a handload is not worth chasing. The deer will never know the difference and you will have a lot less
problems .
From pressure tests I have done or seen, you will often get away with switching bullets, but it depends on so many other things. I have never seen a bullet that was a problem that would not have worked well with a proper
reload or that was the cause by itself for any kind of damage to a rifle.

(There is one exception to this. I have seen at least one brand of solid brass bullet that actually expanded a barrel several thousands, but it was made out of very hard brass, a bad mistake. )

The reloading manuals don't tell you much about these things. It is too bad that we all have to learn the hard way, and I am no exception, I just am one who lived thu my mistakes.
Did you know that leaving a box of some types of cartridges on the dash of your car in the sun on a hot day can increase pressures as much as 5000-8000psi.
One last observation. I have found that most of the ball powders , when used at presures above about 62,000psi, will often concave the base of even a solid section bullet, and swage the base out tight in the throat of the rifle. Accuracy of course will usually be affected too. The Hawk bullet has a soft jacket, and I have proved that they bump up with even milder loads to completely seal the bore, thus requiring less powder than a hard bullet , depending on the bore size and throat dimensions. It also stops gas cutting thus barrel wear. Depending on your particular rifle and ctg. this could easially be another severe problem in a hot reload.
I have always had excellant results with the Hawk bullets, and will continue to use the , even in my fine English double rifles. I almost always get superior accuracy with them.
Pardon my going on so long here . I have never put anything on one of these before, and had a lot stored up to carry o about, and I must admit it is kinda fun. Keep shoot'n

21 February 2003, 15:04

trigger

I tried some Hawk bullets in 338 - 230 grain. I had no problems with them. Very accurate. I shot mine over a chrony. Worked up the load from a good starting point. Took less powder to get the same velocity as a 225 grain Hornady. Not sure why - could be softer jacket that seals better or maybe a longer shank.

Never shot any game with them. Found a good load with the 210 Nosler Partition and used that.

They don't scare me. If I ever own a gun that is hard to find bullets for or is nice gun with a poor bore, I will use them again.

21 February 2003, 15:47

Frank Nowakowski

My experience with the Hawks is limited. I used a few different weights in .45-70 in a Sharps I had and they were by far my most accurate bullet. They worked very well, consistently acurate, but SOFT. At .45-70 velocities they would probably work fine on deer/elk.
Tried some in a .375 H&H and they are SO soft that they literally turn inside out on game. To use to just shoot say an old .405 win, .348 win,etc they would be fine. But they are a bit soft for many hunting situations.
FN

21 February 2003, 16:03

jeffeosso

Savage99
you said

quote:
Then it's ok? Are you saying that if the rifle had not blown up and another shot had been fired that would be ok?

Yes, if the rifle had not blown up, of course it would have been okay, but that's at an over simplified level. If the gun blew up at the breach, ON THE FIRST SHOT, then the bullet could be at fault. If the gun blew up 8" ahead of the breach, then it is ONE HUNDRED PERCENT OF THE TIME a barrel obstruction. It's impossible for it to be an exploding bullet. Barrel obrstuction defined as 1: out and out blockage(bullet, mud, jacket, cleaning rod), 2: WRONG BULLET USED 3: partial blockage/jacket left in barrel/extreme rust/bent barrel

hawk bullets are too soft for dangerous game.. they COIN, even with their heavist jacket. BUT, they are good enough to train with... or there would be no website, no company, no trace, other than a dim memory of them. And they shoot fairly well

I have no dog in this fight, and don't wish to have one turned on me, just felt that an impartial person can add their 2 cents. If a gun owner feels that the hawk bullets are the fault of his blow up, then he should consult a lawyer, and this will be resolved rather quickly.

btw, these bullets FAIL, just like BTs do, IMNSHO

just my 2ï¿½
jeffe

[ 02-21-2003, 07:06: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

21 February 2003, 17:35

Savage99

Jeffesso,

My point is that if the second Hawk bullet had been fired into the jacket of the other that was stuck in the barrel "would that be ok?"

When a discussion gets to a point like this I wonder how people can avoid the obvious.

When a jacketed bullet is open in the back and in the front to expose the lead core it seems to me that there is force on the lead that may push it out of the jacket. After all the jacket is being forced thru the barrel with an interferance fit. Remember that the land diameter is .300 on a .30 cal and the bullet is .308"! Now push on the lead base and you can push the lead right out of the jacket in theory.

Years ago we made hunting bullets out of the free miliary ball by reloading them backwards. Some would just cut the tip off of the bullet and there were warnings not to do this as you might blow the core right out of jacket.

21 February 2003, 17:36

Atkinson

I have shot about 30 head of plainsgame with them using a 7x57 and a 338 with the heavy jackets and they almost all blew up...I consider them the worst bullet that I have ever used...I posted a number of them on this board a couple of times...

I believe that they might work at 45-70 etc. velocities, but wouldn't guarentee it...

What it boils down to is pure hype, they are simply old time bullets without solder or any means of retaining the core, the rest is BS IMO...

They are also in many cases oversized and will raise pressures in double rifles from time to time...I have seen them so oversize that they would not seat in the case..and the worst thing is the BS you get from them when you complain and they blame it on the cases, well duh!

22 February 2003, 03:39

jeffeosso

Savage99
I think we are on the same hunt, just different points of view. THe case we are looking at is a FIRST round explosion of the gun, as stated. A case of jacket obstruction is a different issue. Of course it's a bad thing, but the case I was talking about was first time gun death.

Other than, as Ray and I said, the bullets DO fail, in a classic sense, I think they are good enough to train with.

Jeffe

22 February 2003, 04:02

500grains

Hawks are a good way to get a big bore rifle to expand on light game. I have gotten good expansion on elk and kudu with a 470 capstick using Hawk.

I have also noticed that Hawks produce higher pressure in my guns than other bullets, using the same cases, same neck thickness, same powder charge, etc. So I never try to push Hawks fast.

22 February 2003, 04:19

475/480

i have shot them in my srh480,265-300gr .025 jacket,just working up some loads they are accurate .so far velocities up to 1400fps,but not on game yet,but i started casting last year so the hawks will have to wait.

22 February 2003, 07:19

griz

I used some hawks in a 458x2",they were 400gr rn @ 2000fps and the core shot out the barrel but the jacket stayed in the barrel.I didn't notice it until the next round wouldn't chamber thank god!I also had the same problem in a 458win and a 9.3x64 I went back to x bullets and noslers.

22 February 2003, 07:36

Savage99

quote:
Originally posted by griz:
I used some hawks in a 458x2",they were 400gr rn @ 2000fps and the core shot out the barrel but the jacket stayed in the barrel.I didn't notice it until the next round wouldn't chamber thank god!I also had the same problem in a 458win and a 9.3x64 I went back to x bullets and noslers.

What more do you need to know? [Eek!]

22 February 2003, 07:45

carcano91

quote:
Originally posted by Savage99:
Some would just cut the tip off of the bullet and there were warnings not to do this as you might blow the core right out of jacket.

Amazingly, there is still one fool out there who is selling a tool for doing so (he is actually condoning the dangerous practice, just with a weak "be careful what you do" reminder), and who has not yet been put out of business. "The Hanned Line" the company is called. Product liability can run a loooooong way until it catches you.

Carcano