NEw Guy, Old Argument

28 January 2002, 16:05

Hello all. Just found a this link on another site. Can't have too many loading sites.

Anyway, I seen this discussion come up a couple of times lately, so I thought I get as many opinions as possible. Here goes:

Of late, I've read of several loaders tumbling loaded ammo to remove sizing lube. One individual on another board stated that manufacturers tumble ammo to clean before packaging. I was taught many, many years ago this is a no-no because the tumbling action could alter the propellant's burn rate. Makes sense, in theory.

I've sent emails to various manufacturers and will post any responses I get.

Thanks,

Eddie

29 January 2002, 08:10

Pyrotek

Do manufacturers tumble loaded ammo in a typical tumbler?

For removing sizing lubes, I resize first, then tumbling, then wash the brass, steam it dry.

I think it takes a lot of useful life out of tumbling media if lubed cases is in the tumbler, especially that the lube will become gunk after picking up small media dusts.

29 January 2002, 08:32

scot

Why would you put powder and primers into greasy brass???? You are asking for problems with dud primers. Tumble your brass after you size. Get some cheap non-treated walnut or corncob. A friend got me #50 for five bucks. When it gets nasty from the grease toss it.

29 January 2002, 09:16

Recono

If you tumble loaded ammo, be sure to use only FMJ spitzers.

Tumbling FP ammo, or unloaded cases, is b-o-r-i-n-g.

29 January 2002, 11:13

<auto>

I have found that The best way for me is to tumble clean the brass first thing when I get home from the range. Next step is to re-size and de-prime. This involves using some of the RCBS water-soluable lube. After that I rinse the brass in warm water, and leave it to dry. If I am in a hurry, I put it on a cookie sheet and stick it in the oven at about 200 degrees for a few minutes until dry. Next step is to put the primers in, then the powder and finally the bullets. The finished product is nice clean, shiny reloads. Nothing hard about that.

29 January 2002, 12:17

scot

, I put it on a cookie sheet and stick it in the oven at about 200 degrees for a few minutes

Carefull here. If you get the brass very hot you will aneal the case head. Then you load it as ususal, fire it, and whammo!!! The case head ruptures when the pressure gets high and takes you and your rifle out, and in a most spectacular fashon. This is the very best way to destroy a rifle. Better than most overloads.

Carefull!!!!!!!

29 January 2002, 12:26

Oddball

I'm not sure why, But I was told many years ago not to tumble loaded cases. Maybe something to do with the primers? Anyway I lube, size then tumble in corncob media and that removes all the lube on the cases.

------------------
Endeavor to Persevere

29 January 2002, 13:28

beemanbeme

I strongly believe they do. And I do to if needed. I think the "theory" about it being dangerous got started quite a while back when some gun writer was having a hard time figuring what to write about. He wrote a thesis about if you carried your ammo in the glove box of your truck the vibrations would cause the powder to grind against itself and change the relative "speed" of the powder. (I guess they do have to write about something but geez) Anyway, some other smart cookie figured out that you would have to drive approx 50,000 miles over unpaved roads before your powder would start to alter.

[This message has been edited by beemanbeme (edited 01-29-2002).]

29 January 2002, 14:35

Eddie

Here's the response I received from Accurate powder:

quote:

The problem if there ever should be one is the primer. It has been recorded that the very brittle and extremely sensitive
composition in primers did ignite during tumbling. Powders are actually tumbled in blending machines beyond what you will ever
be able to do. We are not a ammunition manufacturer but we do not know of any one tumbling loaded ammunition. At least in the conventional way.
Regards
Johan Loubser
Ballistic Lab manager
Accurate Powders
McEwen Tennessee

Here's one from Hodgdon:

quote:
We don't recommend it. Several theories come to mind. One is what if it goes off, or could it? Could it change the powder granulation size? We have never tried it, and I am not sure what they do at the ammunition factories.

I'll take that as a "don't do it."

Eddie

30 January 2002, 06:38

<2ndaryexplosioneffect>

Ok, I donï¿½t want to get anyone hurt here so be your own judge of if itï¿½s safe or not to tumble loaded ammo.

My uneducated opinion:
1. The standard vibratory tumbler most reloaders use, that only holds a couple of pounds of corncob media, does not create enough force to detonate a primer in otherwise normaly loaded ammo in good condition.

Vibratory finishing I do on my own loaded ammo:

1. I DO NOT tumble fired cases. I feel there is a chance for chemical or physical contamination from the residue left inside the tumbled empty cases from the polishing media. I steam clean the inside of my cases prior to reloading. If you do not have a steam cleaner, tricloarethelene (sp) works well.

2. I do vibratory tumble all of my loaded ammo, every style bullet, every caliber (30+).

3. I do this to remove any oils/bullet lube or other contaminants on the outside of my cases that might enter the chamber of my rifle. I then store all loaded ammo in ï¿½zip-locï¿½ bags, inside a G.I. ammo can.

What I have done in the past:

I had a broom-handle Mauser from WWII with the original ammo. After 20 years I decided to see if it actually shoots. The ammo was green!

I first ran the ammo in my standard vibratory tumbler overnight and the ammo was clean but pitted. The ammo looked too rough to me so I decided to run it in my commercial vibratory tumbler that holds 1,000 pounds of ceramic balls for media. OK guys, Iï¿½m no real dummy. I had reservations about a shell from WW-II going off, so I cranked it up and left the building. Long story short- no walls with bullet holes and the Mauser shoots good.

Would it hurt to build a sand bag pit arroung your tunbler for tumbling loaded ammo----NO.

Is it possible for a loaded round to go off when tumbled----YES.

Send all negative feedback to:
Bill Clinton, care of Hillary, N.Y.N.Y.

30 January 2002, 08:58

<Slamhound>

I personally don't put loaded ammo in my vibratory case cleaner [and i heard that one that tumbles them (rock-tumbler style) is safer than one that vibrates]. If a live round does go off in a tumbler, though, you shouldn't have to be looking for bullet holes in walls... if the round isn't in the chamber the bullet will just pop out of the case [and/or the case may rupture] but i suppose it could set your media on fire if it's dry...

30 January 2002, 09:56

beemanbeme

I agree with slam hound. With nothing to direct the pressure, the danger of real damage is remote. You may have to sweep up some media and, if you were sitting close to the vibrator when the shell went off, you may need to clean your shorts but no real damage.......................

30 January 2002, 12:29

Pyrotek

Dust explosion!

If the round went off in a tumbler, the hot gas can ignite the dust/air in the tumbler bowl. Since the bowl is sitting on a couple springs, the shock of the explosion can do funny things to the machine depending on your imagination.

30 January 2002, 12:34

<Eagle Eye>

I once read that tumbling loaded ammo can breakdown the chemical coating on the powder and that this would reduce its' shelf life and can effect the burn rate.

30 January 2002, 12:51

416SW

"if the round isn't in the chamber the bullet will just pop out of the case [and/or the case may rupture]".

Obviously you guys have never put live ammo in a fire, and seen what was left of the case, good luck finding the bullet.

30 January 2002, 19:04

<BigBob>

I DON'KNOW IS ITS SAFE OR NOT. This is one of those questions that comes up everyonce in a while. It seems to me that it just isn't a good idea. I guess I follow the old adage of, "IF YOU DONOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING, DO NOT DO IT!!!!!!" I tend to frighten easily. As for my practise, I use RCBS #2 lube. It's water soluble. Once I've sized and trimmed cases I put them under warm water a few minutes, let them dry overnight, and clean them in the morning. I haven't had any problems doing it that way, so I think I'll stick to it.

------------------
BigBob

31 January 2002, 00:57

Eddie

Did anyone even bother to read the response from the Accurate powder tech rep?

31 January 2002, 04:45

beemanbeme

Sorry, 416sw, I watched a demo where a 30-30 round was put on a hot plate and covered with a ordinary cardboard box. When the round cooked off, no portion of the round penetrated the box.
While I will be the first to agree that a large helping of prudence should be mixed in with our reloading efforts, the same would apply to driving an automobile, repairing the family toaster, telling your wife she's picked up a couple of pounds and a myriad of other things we do daily. If reloading was as dangerous as some would have you believe, the newspapers would run entire columns of the latest dead reloaders.

31 January 2002, 10:44

Eddie

quote:
I watched a demo where a 30-30 round was put on a hot plate and covered with a ordinary cardboard box.

Different ignition equals different burn rate. I have scars on my left calf from a .45 round knocked off a bench. It just happened to land primer down on the concrete and functioned as designed. The danger isn't from the bullet, but rather the brass.

Eddie

31 January 2002, 10:52

416SW

beenmanbeme
hmmm was just going by what was left of cases (not all there) and never did find the bullets. Did the 30-30 case look complete ie. was it all there.

fyi have seen a round go off at the range, was in one of those foam trays that ammo comes in. 38super reload in tray on ground next to the guy shooting, ejected case lands on tray (must have hit primer) and bang round goes off. No one hurt, but case wasn't all there.

So I guess the question is where did the bits go and at what speed(fps) did they leave? Anyone any ideas

31 January 2002, 11:13

cwilson

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 2ndaryexplosioneffect:

...

What type of steamer do you have, is it readily available. I think I could convince my wife that we need one,.. to clean her jewelery, and maybe I could use it too??

31 January 2002, 11:28

Recono

quote:
Originally posted by 416SW:
beenmanbeme
hmmm was just going by what was left of cases (not all there) and never did find the bullets. Did the 30-30 case look complete ie. was it all there.

fyi have seen a round go off at the range, was in one of those foam trays that ammo comes in. 38super reload in tray on ground next to the guy shooting, ejected case lands on tray (must have hit primer) and bang round goes off. No one hurt, but case wasn't all there.
So I guess the question is where did the bits go and at what speed(fps) did they leave? Anyone any ideas

The above happened to me about 35 years ago with .45ACP in a yellow Flambeau cartridge box. The bullet sat still (it was pointed down towards the bench), the case bounced off the egg-carton overhead, and one or two segments of the partitioning in the cartridge box were blown out. I still have the box. I commenced to and still cover all ammo while shooting autoloaders these days.

31 January 2002, 12:21

<2ndaryexplosioneffect>

quote:
Originally posted by cwilson:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 2ndaryexplosioneffect:
...
1. I DO NOT tumble fired cases. I feel there is a chance for chemical or physical contamination from the residue left inside the tumbled empty cases from the polishing media. I steam clean the inside of my cases prior to reloading. If you do not have a steam cleaner, tricloarethelene (sp) works well.

What type of steamer do you have, is it readily available. I think I could convince my wife that we need one,.. to clean her jewelery, and maybe I could use it too??

I am a retired Jeweler. The steamer I have is much more than you need (auto fill, solenoid switches, plumbed into my stainless sinks). Check out IShor or Guesswein in NYC, or Swest or Roseco in Dallas, Texas. All are jewelry equipment dealers and should have a web page. What you are looking for is a 1-3 gal manual steam cleaner 110V. These manual models new run in the $300-500 range. Might check Ebay under jewelry tools for used ones. All have subcontractors that make their machines and carry their name.

I use mine a lot on gun stuff. Example: Remove the firing pin from a 700 bolt. Steam clean the inside of the bolt to remove all crud from it and flash hole. STEAM IT LONG ENOUGH SO IT GETS HOT ENOUGH TO EVAPORATE ALL WATER RESIDUE WITHIN 3 SECONDS. While the bolt is still hot I mist it inside and out with a light machinist oil (fingerprint oil), which dries to the touch within a couple of minuets. No crud and even the jewelling on all my bolts are rust protected still look new.

Shoot Safe,
Mike

If mama lets you have one and you steam her opal,emeral,coral,pearls, or alexandrite...you just broke it and I don't know you :-)

01 February 2002, 01:55

cwilson

2ndaryexplosioneffect:

Thanks for your reply, I think I'll be patient and look for a used one.

cwilson

01 February 2002, 05:32

beemanbeme

FYI: After the round went off, the instructor turned the hotplate off and talked for a few minutes while it cooled. When he removed the box, the bullet was laying loose on the hot plate and the case was intact (one piece) but looked kinda like a full pop can looks after you shoot it with a 22-250. As I recall, both the bullet and the case hadn't moved off the burner.
I think, perhaps, that the flambeau ammo holder acted as a rather loose gun barrel and directed the engeries of the round.