Load down a mag but cant load up a standard..

28 June 2004, 04:58

I find that a rediculous statement. First of all, why would anyone want to? If Standard velocities are what you seek then what is the point?

Secondly, it is a phoney presumption from a recoil standpoint anyway, as it STILL requires a good deal more powder from a magnum case to even achieve standard velocities. (see efficency and calculating recoil)

And finally there is this, WARNING: Loads should not be reduced from the loads listed, as dangerous hangfires and muzzle flash can occur. "All large capacity cartridges operate best at near maximum charges.."

28 June 2004, 07:01

beemanbeme

FWIW, if I was working up (or down) a load for an anything and got a hang fire, unless it could be explained by some simple, non-repeating reason, I wouldn't be getting a hang fire "every single time", but rather, I would get a hang fire the single time I tried it. Holding a 458 in my hands while I waited to see WHEN AND IF it was gonna ignite is not on my list of fun things to do.

28 June 2004, 05:36

ASS_CLOWN

I can tell you for a fact that 65 grains of IMR or H 4895 in MY 300 Winchester magnum, shooting 150 to 155 grain bullets (Remington, Hornady, Sierra) with CCI 250 or Fed 215 primer will hangfire EVERY SINGLE SHOT! Runs about the same muzzle velocity as a 30-06 though.

A 458 Win mag when loaded down to 56 to 59 grains of IMR3031 and using either CCI250 or Fed 215 primers will hang fire with about ANY 405 grain bullet. Once in a blue moon (~ 5% - 10%) of the shots will not, but the rest WILL. It stills out-performs a 45-70 though. (Muzzle velocity of ~ 1900 fps). You just gotta love that click, 1 one thousand, 2 one thousand, 3 one thousand, 4 one thousand, then boom, in a 458 Winnie!!

Kinda like shootin' a flintlock on steroids, but in slow motion.

I believe Hodgdon has some "reduced loads for beginners" that are even lower than mine! This is very scary, at least to me.

ASS_CLOWN

28 June 2004, 05:58

Perforator

I didn't realize that you had a .458 AC. I thought you only had a .50 Beowolf. Back to the thread, I guess I'm not sophisticated enough in my shooting and reloading to appreciate what spectrum a particular cartridge can cover. Why in the world would you want a .300 shooting at a corresponding .308 power level when you could either buy the .308 and have another firearm in the collection, or be happy with the .300??

28 June 2004, 06:27

<9.3x62>

This seems true even for lesser rounds. Just recently I was working up a nice light load for my father to hunt whitetails at short ranges with his lightweight 30-06. I tried a number of powders, but by the time I got down to "30-30" ballistics, recoil and muzzle blast had diminished only marginally.

In pistol cases a similar problem arises. For me it is compounded because the load densities for light pistol loads(say, 45 colt) are frequently below 50%. This plays to my patholigical fear of double-charging with a fast powder. If I accidentally double charge, I want it to be obvious when reloading NOT when shooting.

Anyway, as someone pointed out - loading a round to its potential just means that more guns are needed to fill out the battery...

28 June 2004, 09:10

<9.3x62>

Quote:

Recoil is (as one would expect) about like a 7X57...

I would not necessarily expect this. All else held constant, the mass of the powder charge will increase recoil.

28 June 2004, 08:31

olarmy

Wstrnhuntr
To each his own, I guess. But I don't find it a ridiculous at all. I have a load for my 7Mag that shoots a 150gr Sierra BT at about 2700 fps and is VERY accurate. Using it allows me to get practive aroung the ranch (shooting hogs an other varmints) with a rifle I enjoy carrying and shooting. This load is also very effective on whitetails at "normal" ranges, so I often use it for deer when I will not likely get a long shot. Recoil is (as one would expect) about like a 7X57, so it also makes a good load for younger or less experienced shooters.

Soooooo..I guess what's ridiculous to some, is good for others...

28 June 2004, 07:31

458RugerNo1

The issue is that you must choose a powder/load that can be used for such lower-velocity loads.

My .458 Win likes 67.0gr of IMR-4064 and a CCI250 with a Rem 400gr JSP for 1915fps. It's an accurate and cheap load for plinking and deer/black bear yet still on the level of a stoutly loaded 45-70. Never had a hang-fire with it and it's darned accurate in my 1980 vintage M77 Ruger.

28 June 2004, 10:03

olarmy

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Recoil is (as one would expect) about like a 7X57...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I would not necessarily expect this. All else held constant, the mass of the powder charge will increase recoil."

True, but the effect of a few grains of powder on recoil is minimal. According to the Recoil Calculator at Huntamerica.com, here are the comparative recoil figures:

150gr bullet, 8 lb rifle

My7Mag load:

48gr/IMR4895; recoil = 15

2700 fps 7X57 loads (from Sierra manual)

41.5gr/IMR4064; recoil = 14

46.6gr/IMR4350; recoil = 15

50.9gr/H4831; recoil = 16

28 June 2004, 10:00

jeffeosso

western hunter....

here's the actuall quandry... who would load light bullets fast in a magnum, rather than heavy bullets as fast as lighter bullets in a standard?

As the HH magnums are the forefather of the magnum cases, and they IDEA was to have high SD bullets are moderate velocities... it's an american concept to load light bullets fast...

Now, to your question, why, if one has a 300 weatherby, he could load anywhere from 30 carbine to 300 sav, to 308, to 30-06, to 300 hh, to 300 win and then full bore 300 weatherby.

It's a not a valid statement to assert that recoil is not a factor... it's so much easier for MOST persons to shoot a 308 load in a 300 mag than a 300 mag load.. the average shooter thinks of ANY mag as being a recoil level they don't wish to feel...

In fact, the powder difference in recoil is LESS than the difference (in a 300 weatherby vs 30-06) in the felt recoil of the variance of factory gun weights... in other words, the 4 to 8 oz that runs between factory 30-06 from winchester can have MORE difference in felt recoil than a 300 weatherby loaded down to 30-06.

Besides, even with a 300 weatherby, you can load cheap cast GC bullets and relatively fast surplus powder, for inexpensive small game to 300 gr lead bullets at 1800 for hogs and deer.

the simple facts are that mags do recoil and are expensive to feed, if you shoot alot, and it's FAR safer to load a mag down than to try and match a mag with a 308

jeffe

28 June 2004, 09:43

ASS_CLOWN

Perforator,
You caught me, I don't have a 458 Win mag (some guy in Anchorage Alaska has the 458 Win mag that I spoke of in this thread though)

With regard to firing numerous hang fires in a 458 Win mag, I was working with reduced loads and cast bullets. So I had three of head bullet type (manufacturer and plain based versus gas check) with different seating depths. I am too lazy to pull them, so I just fired them off. A 458 Win mag is not that impressive of a kicker, so if it hang fires you just have to hold on to it a tad longer.

The 300 Win mag loads were an attempt to get rid of a surplus of 4895 I had. Obviously, I did not get rid of too much of it through the old 300 Win mag (I think I fired off 10 or 11 rounds).

Personally, I have NEVER noticed a reduction in recoil with a reduced powder charge. I HAVE noticed an increase in recoil when I went to faster powders to achieve the same muzzle velocity. I wonder if this has anything to do with the FACT that the thrust force INCREASES with the faster powder???

ASS_CLOWN

28 June 2004, 14:51

Collins

Quote:

I find that a rediculous statement. First of all, why would anyone want to? If Standard velocities are what you seek then what is the point?

To save big dollars!

I'm testing armor and glazing from NIJ II to NIJ IV and Department of State rating 01.01. This means .22lr to 30-06 AP. I've got a TC Contender that covers the pistol rounds (I know, if I had an Encore I'd have everything covered) but I bought a .300 WSM and I'm loading "down" to the .308, the 30-06, the 7.62x39. and with sabots I'm including the 5.56 55gr and the M-855 steel penetrator round. I'm happy as a clam, I bought 5 guns for $400 and as my car racing friends say, there's no replacement for displacement.

28 June 2004, 14:16

ASS_CLOWN

I think you would be HARD PRESSED to feel the difference too!

ASS_CLOWN

28 June 2004, 17:14

Atkinson

I have loaded down several calibers like my 338 Win to 338-06 velocities with the 210 Nosler to stop the bruising and it works...

It is a common practice in Africa to load down all the big calibers to hunt plainsgame in the thick bush and stop the brusing that causes the buyers to knock cents off the price per pound on the game meat....

ASS CLOWN,
I suggest you use a dacron filler to stop the hang fires, but use enough that you have no airspace at all....Loading down can be as dangerous as too much powder, especially with certain slow burning powders...

28 June 2004, 16:45

<9.3x62>

Quote:

True, but the effect of a few grains of powder on recoil is minimal. According to the Recoil Calculator at Huntamerica.com, here are the comparative recoil figures:

150gr bullet, 8 lb rifle

My7Mag load:
48gr/IMR4895; recoil = 15

2700 fps 7X57 loads (from Sierra manual)

41.5gr/IMR4064; recoil = 14
46.6gr/IMR4350; recoil = 15
50.9gr/H4831; recoil = 16

Hold the phone, let's compare apples to apples here.

I get 2625 fps with 39 gr of IMR4895 from my 22" (Shilen) barreled 7x57, 150 Nosler BT and CCI250 primer. Add four inches to the barrel, and I'd bet that load would be mighty close to 2700 fps (like 7RM barrel in the Sierra manual). I compute the recoils to be 12.47 and 14.12, given an 8 lb rifle for both. That's about 13% more recoil for the same velocity.

Nevertheless, this may or may be noticeable to the average shooter. In reality, 7RMs tend to be longer-barreled and heavier than 7x57s, so by the time this is accounted for the recoil difference due to the powder is probably completely voided.

I too have found that milder loads can produce top-notch accuracy. If you have a Roberts, try some moderate loads of Re15 - excellent results in my experience.

29 June 2004, 01:34

ASS_CLOWN

Ray,

Nowhere can I find Hodgdon's stating that one needs to use a filler with their reduced loads for the 300 Win mag, using H4895!

Don't take my word for it though, peruse their site, follow the link:

Hodgdon Reduced Loads

I ran into trouble with 150 grain pills and 65 grains of H4895. They are going with lighter bullets (130 grain) and only 44 grains (the case is ONLY ~ half full)! I say be afraid, be very afraid!

ASS_CLOWN

29 June 2004, 03:23

sdgunslinger

I suspect that ass clown is up to his old tricks and blowing smoke out of his ass on this one .

Of course , there is the possibility that he knows more about loading H4895 than the professional ballisticians at Hodgdon........

29 June 2004, 04:29

CDH

Actually I have used Hodgdon's advice on 60% of max load H4895 for reduced loads in my 300WSM. It works great. The only problem is that the chamber pressure is so LOW that brass doesn't expand well and soot covers about every 3rd case. Seating bullets well into the rifling solved that problem.

Nary a HINT of a hangfire either. Maybe you had a bad lot of primers or powder??? If (as several on this forum have done repeatedly) can get magnums to shoot with 30% or so (Blue Dot anyone) case fill, I think 4895 at 60% will work fine.

Recoil is much reduced, and accuracy is decent enough for my intended use, 100 yard game, barrel break in, youth training, etc.

29 June 2004, 07:23

ASS_CLOWN

Bob said:

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Poster: ASS_CLOWN

I can tell you for a fact that 65 grains of IMR or H 4895 in MY 300 Winchester magnum, shooting 150 to 155 grain bullets (Remington, Hornady, Sierra) with CCI 250 or Fed 215 primer will hangfire EVERY SINGLE SHOT! Runs about the same muzzle velocity as a 30-06 though.

...........<snip>.............

ASS_CLOWN

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AC,

I thought you said you only had a "Daisy Champion 99, Remington 742 (30-06), RRA 50 Beowulf". See: My Gun Collection

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do not own a 405 Winchester. The posted picture is MY complete gun collection.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess that jealousy was at least partially to blame for all my asshole posts over the years. I have wanted a real nice big bore for a long time, and have been trying to save enough to buy (or now thinking real hard about trying to build one) for several years. Never seems to work out. So, as you may have gleaned from my other post, I have decided to straighten by lying ass out, ask the experts (why they would talk to me I don't know, but their opinions are TRULY APPRECIATED), and buy a off the shelf "cheapy" so I can finally own a big bore. Albeit, not the fancy best quality rifle of my dreams, not that that is important.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As I have previously indicated, I am TRULY sorry for being such an arse for so very long, and plan on being honest and truthful from now on.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So when did you get a .300 Win. Mag.?

Quote:

Bob, what is so different about reloading a 300 Win mag than a 30-06?

My gun collection was posted for individual's like you Bob. I think you know what kind of individual you are.

Those pictures/posts of my gun collection, they make you feel good, don't they. I want you to keep telling yoursel:

"This ASS_CLOWN, he is so full of crap, he ONLY owns a Remington Model 742 in 30-06, a Alexander Arms RRA AR15 in 50 Beowulf, and a Daisy Champion 99 BB gun"

You know that sentence above, I am referring to this one,
Quote:

"This ASS_CLOWN, he is so full of crap, he ONLY owns a Remington Model 742 in 30-06, a Alexander Arms RRA AR15 in 50 Beowulf, and a Daisy Champion 99 BB gun"

is true based upon your decades of experience in reloading, big bore firearms, and hunting.

Actually I need your help for something. I screwed up on a post sometime back and somehow managed to post a picture of a rifle (heaven forbid it may even belong to me )can you help me figure out what it is?

That was a 22 Magnum done up to look like an African DGR. Isn't it cool!

Thanks,

ASS_CLOWN

29 June 2004, 06:39

BFaucett

Quote:

Poster: ASS_CLOWN

I can tell you for a fact that 65 grains of IMR or H 4895 in MY< !--color--> 300 Winchester magnum< !--color-->, shooting 150 to 155 grain bullets (Remington, Hornady, Sierra) with CCI 250 or Fed 215 primer will hangfire EVERY SINGLE SHOT! Runs about the same muzzle velocity as a 30-06 though.
...........<snip>.............
ASS_CLOWN

AC,

I thought you said you only had a "Daisy Champion 99, Remington 742 (30-06), RRA 50 Beowulf". See: My Gun Collection

Quote:

I do not own a 405 Winchester. The posted picture is MY complete gun collection.

Quote:

I guess that jealousy was at least partially to blame for all my asshole posts over the years. I have wanted a real nice big bore for a long time, and have been trying to save enough to buy (or now thinking real hard about trying to build one) for several years. Never seems to work out. So, as you may have gleaned from my other post, I have decided to straighten by lying ass out, ask the experts (why they would talk to me I don't know, but their opinions are TRULY APPRECIATED), and buy a off the shelf "cheapy" so I can finally own a big bore. Albeit, not the fancy best quality rifle of my dreams, not that that is important.

Quote:

As I have previously indicated, I am TRULY sorry for being such an arse for so very long, and plan on being honest and truthful from now on.

So when did you get a .300 Win. Mag.?

29 June 2004, 06:25

ASS_CLOWN

CDH,

You must have hit on it. Bad primer lot, of course it was a streak of uncommon bad luck to have both CCI200 (looked in my notes and these did it to), CCI250, and Fed 215 all hang firing.

The 300 Win mag loads I quoted weren't sooty. The 458 Win mag loads, those were very sooty, I mean down right filthy!!

ASS_CLOWN

29 June 2004, 06:20

ASS_CLOWN

sdgunslinger,

I will happily load the the loads I spoke of up for you to fire off. I will even do it in your presence with your equipment.

Then we can drop the load 21 grains and the bullet weight 15 grains and see what happens.

It may just be me though, I seen to have a hard time duplicating many of Hodgdon's reload recipes.

ASS_CLOWN

29 June 2004, 07:40

CDH

Quote:

The 300 Win mag loads were an attempt to get rid of a surplus of 4895 I had. Obviously, I did not get rid of too much of it through the old 300 Win mag (I think I fired off 10 or 11 rounds).

CDH,

You must have hit on it. Bad primer lot, of course it was a streak of uncommon bad luck to have both CCI200 (looked in my notes and these did it to), CCI250, and Fed 215 all hang firing.

ASS_CLOWN

Uncommon indeed. And to think, you tried 3 different primers with identical results. Clowning like that puts you in uncommon company in my book. And to think, the same Fed215 primer that Weatherby experimened with in their .378 case, which provided reliable ignition at below 50% of that huge case (when everyone else had problems with 10-15% reductions) with SLOW powders (see Nosler manual #5 for a reprint of their memo overviewing these results), your medium fast 4895 just wouldn't go.

29 June 2004, 07:51

BFaucett

Quote:

Bob, what is so different about reloading a 300 Win mag than a 30-06?

My gun collection was posted for individual's like you Bob. I think you know what kind of individual you are.

Those pictures/posts of my gun collection, they make you feel good, don't they. I want you to keep telling yoursel:

"This ASS_CLOWN, he is so full of crap, he ONLY owns a Remington Model 742 in 30-06, a Alexander Arms RRA AR15 in 50 Beowulf, and a Daisy Champion 99 BB gun"

You know that sentence above, I am referring to this one,
Quote:

"This ASS_CLOWN, he is so full of crap, he ONLY owns a Remington Model 742 in 30-06, a Alexander Arms RRA AR15 in 50 Beowulf, and a Daisy Champion 99 BB gun"

is true based upon your decades of experience in reloading, big bore firearms, and hunting.

Actually I need your help for something. I screwed up on a post sometime back and somehow managed to post a picture of a rifle (heaven forbid it may even belong to me )can you help me figure out what it is?

Thanks,
ASS_CLOWN

"Bob, what is so different about reloading a 300 Win mag than a 30-06?< !--color-->"

Not much really. But you made the statement about YOUR 300 Win Mag when in fact you don't own one. You then proceed to tell us all about your reduced loads for it and the hang fires you experienced.

Then, when you're got red handed in all of your lies, you resort to attacks on me in an attempt to move the spotlight off you. Well, I'm tired of your passive agressive crap.

Don't you have anything else better to do than to post on AR? Get a life.

-Bob F.

29 June 2004, 09:20

ASS_CLOWN

CDH,

Loading a 378 Weatherby magnum half full of slow burning powder has got to be one of the MOST irresponsible statements I have heard here on AR in sometime!!!

I am sorry your feel that I am clowning around. I promise you I am not. I posted by personal experiences with a Winchester Model 70 Classic Supergrade chambered in 300 Winchester Magnum, and a Winchester Model 70 Post-64 Supergrade chambered in 458 Wincehster Magnum. No bullshit, no lies, no crap, no worship of a powder company! My rifle (300 Win mag) won't do what Hodgdon says it should, SIMPLE FACT!

Bob,
What is your problem anyway? Please post your proof that I do not own a 300 Win mag. Do you have evidence that the loads I posted would not do as I stated they would do? Don't site Hodgdon, I have already done that, I want YOUR first hand experience!

ASS_CLOWN

29 June 2004, 09:32

CDH

Quote:

CDH,

Loading a 378 Weatherby magnum half full of slow burning powder has got to be one of the MOST irresponsible statements I have heard here on AR in sometime!!!

I am sorry your feel that I am clowning around. I promise you I am not. I posted by personal experiences with a Winchester Model 70 Classic Supergrade chambered in 300 Winchester Magnum, and a Winchester Model 70 Post-64 Supergrade chambered in 458 Wincehster Magnum. No bullshit, no lies, no crap, no worship of a powder company! My rifle (300 Win mag) won't do what Hodgdon says it should, SIMPLE FACT!

I agree on the downloading a .378 case, but Weatherby was doing it in their own lab, and such is the life of a ballistician at a cartridge company. I suspect the safeguards there are well beyond what any of us mere mortals are willing to go through.

As for the rest of it, I live by the saying below, and 4895 hangfiring at the loads you mention doesn't add up. Besides the fact that Hodgdon lists 61 grains of H4895 as MAX for 300 Win and 150 grain bullets, it would take a powder in the slow to very slow range to repeatably hang at those load densities with a properly functioning primer, and either your powder/load was mislabeled or misrepresented. Either way, it doesn't pass the common sense test to me. To each their own.