Help! Help! On reloading 30'06

19 June 2002, 05:17

<Jon in Dallas>

Newby here!

Starting reloading first time yesterday! With RCBS equipment. H4895 Hodgon powder, 150 gr. nosler, boat tail, cannalure bullets, remington one-time fired (by me) brass.

I've followed instructions on how to reload down to every detail (that I know of!) BUT when I seat and crimp the bullet it's just lose where it sits! I've tried many ways but the bullet just won't sit well! You can move it around and turn it in circles where it's seated.

So my questions to the brilliant minds out there; what the hell am I doing wrong? [Confused]

Did I resize the case wrong? Am I seating it wrong? Am I missing something? Is this common in reloading? Is anybody laughing their ass off 'cause it's a beginners mistake? hehe! [Big Grin]

Is there some good answer to all of this on this board? All help would be appreciated!!! [Smile]

Thanks!!!!

19 June 2002, 05:49

mho

John,

some of the true "cracks" in here may resolve you problem better than I, but since nobody has replied yet...

1) have you got the right caliber bullets? Look on the box, AND measure the diameter of the bullet with a pair of calipers. If it is not .308" - or darn close - that may your problem

2) have you set up your sizing die according to the instructions that came with the die? If you size a fired case (with a smoked neck), do you get all (or at least most) of the neck sized?? (you don't want to push back the shoulder more than a fraction, though - headspace problem - so don't simply screw your sizing die too far down into the press!).

3) if neither of the above worked, have you got an oversize expander in your sizing die??

Question: is there a good reason (such as loading for an autoloader??) why you have decided to crimp your bullets?? If you load for a bolt action rifle, there is no need to crimp.

From your description, it sounds like the crimp is what holds the bullet in the case, but the size of the bullet does not match the inside of the (sized) neck.

Good luck, and keep asking questions. Everybody has to start somewhere.

- mike

19 June 2002, 06:12

<Jon in Dallas>

Thanks for replying!

1) Yes the bullet is .308" exactly.

2) I've been wondering if I expanded the case mouth too much. I was very careful of not overdoing things so at least I could go back and fix it. I don't think I over-expanded the mouth but then again I'm new in this!

3) What's an oversize expander?

I tried both, seating and crimping and neither worked. RCBS say if you have a cannalure bullet then you can seat it. If I want the length to be according to instructions then the mouth will be just on the cannalure.
I've got Rem 700 BDL.

19 June 2002, 06:34

mho

quote:
Originally posted by Jon in Dallas:
Thanks for replying!

2) I've been wondering if I expanded the case mouth too much. I was very careful of not overdoing things so at least I could go back and fix it. I don't think I over-expanded the mouth but then again I'm new in this!

3) What's an oversize expander?

I tried both, seating and crimping and neither worked. RCBS say if you have a cannalure bullet then you can seat it. If I want the length to be according to instructions then the mouth will be just on the cannalure.
I've got Rem 700 BDL.

OK, we'll rule out the wrong bullet.

Does your sizing die have .30-06 stamped on it?? (Sorry for asking silly questions :-)

If you are using a regular .30-06 (full-length)sizing die, you first size down the neck when you run the fired case into the die. When you extract the case from the die, the neck will run over an "expander ball" in your die to control the size
of the inside of the neck.

If you have not screwed your die far enough into your press (follow die instructions carefully, and check whether sizing a fired case sizes all or most of the neck, but don't screw the die too far in - headspace problem lurking!), you would not get the neck of your fired case sized, and it would not hold the bullet.

OR, if the expander ball happens to be oversize (you have to take the die apart to measure this, probably), you would get the neck expanded too much ( > .308", say) when you extracted your case from the die.

If you load for a Rem M700, no need to crimp. Yes, you can crimp, but why create problems for yourself? The crimp is done by the seating die, so screw your seater out a tad to get rid of that pesky crimp! Again: the seater die will come with instructions for setting it up to crimp or not.

Check dies for correct caliber, check die instructions for correct installations, don't crimp (although the crimp has nothing to do with your immediate problem).

It is fine that you load your cartridge to the max length stated by your manual (as I assume) for now. When you have loaded a bit longer, you'll learn to seat the bullet to match your chamber and freebore. With your current cartridge length, make sure the bullet does not touch the lands when you chamber it (you could increase pressure dramatically this way, besides if you ever want to extract an unfired cartridge, you might end up with powder all over your magazine!).

Don't worry about where the cannelure of the bullet is located compared to the case mouth. It is largely irrelevant.

- mike

19 June 2002, 07:11

<Jon in Dallas>

Yes sizing die is .30'06. It's a regular .30-06 (full-length) with an expander ball. I'll take it apart tonite and check the diameter on the ball.

quote:
If you load for a Rem M700, no need to crimp. Yes, you can crimp, but why create problems for yourself? The crimp is done by the seating die, so screw your seater out a tad to get rid of that pesky crimp! Again: the seater die will come with instructions for setting it up to crimp or not.

I think the problem is the sizing die and the expander ball or me using the sizer die! If the problem is not crimping ('cause I tried both crimp and no crimp!) then the only problem I see is the expander ball or I've opened the mouth on the case too wide. Is there a way to fix the mouth? Maybe run it through the seater die?

[ 06-18-2002, 22:12: Message edited by: Jon in Dallas ]

19 June 2002, 08:54

<Jim Lawrence>

Hello Sir: I'm not going to address your loose bullet problem directly but offer a possible solution to your current problem and the million other possible questions you may have in the future.
Lyman 47th issue Reloading Handbook is probably the all time leader handloading manual. This book will answer any and all questions you will ever likely ask. I suggest reading it in its entirety before you size another case. Believe me, it is complete and has made millions of very good handloaders. It is clear concise, and developed to take the beginner and turn him into a well rounded handloader. It's not the end all of reloading but it is the most comprehensive manual to date. I strongly suggest you purchase several manuals as each one will have new information and a slightly different approach to each subject. There is no room for mistakes in this hobby and it is not a dangerous hobby if it is approached with due care. Every bullet manufacture has its own set of reloading directions and there are many reloading books that are independantly written. I believe as a minimum every handloader should have 4 or 5 reference manuals and as you have already done the web forumns can be a great source of information. You might try these manuals for starters. "Handloaders Guide" by Stanley Trzoniec, any of Noslers handloading books, Speer, and Sierra. Read these manuals like you would a text book before you begin the actual process of reloading. It can save a rifle, finger, hand, face, or even a life. I can't exagerate this fact enough. Finally, as one of your responders suggested, a bolt action really does not need a crimp. If your needing to crimp to hold a bullet in place PLEASE buy the Lyman reloading book and start at page 1. I would be more than happy to help you with questions if you wish to e-mail me as they come up. But first, read, read, read!!! Jim

19 June 2002, 09:09

ricciardelli

Give you a quick tip...

If you are using boattail bullets you do not have to bell the case after resizing!

19 June 2002, 15:35

<Don Martin29>

Jon,

Here are some measurements for you from my fired 30/06 case and using quite new RCBS dies (FL).

Fired neck .341" OD
" .320" ID
-----------------
FL with expander button removed
.328" OD
------------------------
Button size .306"
-------------------------
FL with button
.333" OD
.3058" ID <--------This dimension taken with a Lufkin hole gage.

Hope this helps.

[ 06-19-2002, 07:08: Message edited by: Don Martin29 ]

19 June 2002, 15:44

fredj338

I'm not sure which dieas you have, but in most brands it is not possible to "expand" the neck of the case in bottle necked cases like the 06.
If you have meqasured bullets & have the right dies, I am thinking the expander button, which doesn't really expand, but trues up the case mouth, is over sized by .001 or better. Send the dies back to the manuf. w/ a note explaining the problem. I had this problem w/ a set of Lee dies in .45 colt. Good luck!

19 June 2002, 17:54

mho

Jon, as other who have responded, I have been wondering how to interpret your statement:

quote:

2) I've been wondering if I expanded the case mouth too much. I was very careful of not overdoing things so at least I could go back and fix it. I don't think I over-expanded the mouth but then again I'm new in this!
]

As others have pointed out, when FL re-sizing a bottle-neck case, one does not really "expand the case mouth". One "resizes" the case, in particular the case neck to hold the bullet. By running the case thorugh a FL sizing die, there is no "expanding" of the case mouth involved.

You don't bell the case mouth in a separate step, do you?? There are certain cases in which belling is a valid technique - loading straight-walled handgun cases springs to mind - but loading a 30-06 with boat tail bullets is not one of them.

OK, maybe you have not quite caught onto the right terminology yet, that is OK. One has to start somewhere... :-)

quote:

I tried both, seating and crimping and neither worked.

Here is another one for the "right terminology album"... One does not either seat or crimp the bullet. One seats the bullet with or without a crimp.

As you have heard several times by now, there is no need to seat with a crimp for a bolt-action rifle. If one does not need to seat with a crimp, any cannelure in the bullet is irrelevant, and the cannelure does not have to be positioned right at the case mouth.

When one does have to crimp (e.g. loading for an autoloader or for a lever-action with a tubular magazine) one must position the cannelure right at the case mouth!

Not having to crimp has several advantages: bullets can be seated to match freebore, more consistent neck pressure on the bullets from round to round, etc.

Finally: I may be wrong, but I don't know of a current Nosler (.308 cal) bullet that comes with a cannelure?? The Partitions don't have cannelures, and neither do the Ballistic Tips. This is a bit of a mystery!

- mike

[ 06-19-2002, 08:57: Message edited by: mho ]

20 June 2002, 01:46

<Jon in Dallas>

Holy $hit!! You guys are great!! As you can see I'm new to this, terminology is coming along and all kinds of stuff I need to read and learn.

Well, the problem wasn't opening the mouth too much but closing it (true the case mouth) when I resized the case!!! Apparently it didn't resize it far enough down the neck even though I went by the book. That's the reason it didn't seat good. I resized the case again and only seated the bullet. It works great! Now I just have to shoot that thing!!! [Big Grin]

I took the sizing die apart and measured the expander ball and it's exactly like it's suppose to be, OD: .304".

Thanks guys! I appreciate it!!
I need to read more and work on my terminology!!!

20 June 2002, 03:07

mho

Oh sweet success! :-)

Just wait till you get the first really good group, heaven!

- mike

20 June 2002, 03:29

mho

quote:

Well, the problem wasn't opening the mouth too much but closing it (true the case mouth) when I resized the case!!! Apparently it didn't resize it far enough down the neck even though I went by the book. That's the reason it didn't seat good. I resized the case again and only seated the bullet. It works great! Now I just have to shoot that thing!!!

Btw, Jon, now make DARN sure that you have not pushed the case shoulder back (headspace problem). Smoke a fired case on shoulder and neck, and resize it. Make sure the shoulder has not been set back!!!

Actually, some true cracks like to set back the shoulder about .001" to have the case chamber in the best possible way. I would suggest you wait a bit until you try this out. At the moment, avoiding headspace problems is the main issue! (danger lurking).

Some people (myself included) like to size the neck leaving just a tiiiiny bit of the neck unsized. Reason: guaranteed no headspace problem. Some people believe it centers the case (neck) nicely in the chamber. BUT, it does leave the case a tad hard to chamber. If you can live with this, no problem. If you simply *must* have the "silky smooth feeling" associated with a new case, I'm afraid you are into more advanced reloading techniques.

Anyway: make sure you have not created a headspace problem!

- mike

20 June 2002, 05:16

<Jon in Dallas>

quote:
Btw, Jon, now make DARN sure that you have not pushed the case shoulder back (headspace problem). Smoke a fired case on shoulder and neck, and resize it. Make sure the shoulder has not been set back!!!

How can I find out 100% that I've not set the shoulder back? And tell me more about "headspace problems"! Now where is that reloading book?

20 June 2002, 07:12

Pecos41

Jon, as has been mentioned, crimping your 30/06 reloads is unnecessary. But if you really want to crimp, I suggest you buy a Lee "Factory Crimp" die. They are only about 8$ or 9$, do a great job and you won't run any risk of pushing a shoulder back as you might with a roll crimp.

The easiest way to set your reloading dies to full length size your cases is this: Run the ram all the way UP in your press and leave it in this position. Next, screw the sizing die all the way down until it just touches the top of the ram. Some shooters like to back this die off just a hair from this position. Regardless, it will give you a full length sizing of your cases.

If you hold your current batch of reloaded/resized /06 brass up and compare them to a new or unsized case, you will probably be able to visually SEE any bulge in the shoulder due to setting it back with the crip. If you can see or feel any bulge here, probably best to pitch that brass and start over. If nothing seen or felt, I'll bet they are OK.

One mistake most newby's soon make is not using enough case lube when they reload. If you don't, you will soon stick a case in the dies and then rip the rim off the case trying to get it out. This is an UGLY problem and the only way I know to fix it is buy yourself an RCBS Stuck Case Remover die or else take it to a gunsmith. All other methods will likely ruin your sizing dies.

I suggest you get the spray on instant case lube. It's about the fastest easiest route you can go and does an excellent job. Several different brands on the market but all basically the same stuff.

Don't be bashful if you have other problems. We've all made our share of mistakes, so no need to think you are the Lone Ranger. [Big Grin]

[ 06-19-2002, 22:16: Message edited by: Pecos45 ]

21 June 2002, 00:34

mho

[QUOTE]
How can I find out 100% that I've not set the shoulder back? And tell me more about "headspace problems"!
[QUOTE]

Jon, that is why I say "smoke the neck and shoulder of the case" (i.e. over a match or a cigarette lighter). Once you run the case into the die and extract it again, you'll see exactly how much you managed to size. It is dead easy. I often start with the die screwed out fairly far, then I screw it in bit by bit, until I reach the level where I just miss pushing back the shoulder.

The previous reply was a description of the standard setup of a FL resizing die. No problem with that. It is a fair estimate of what is correct, and you should not screw your die in any further than this. The problem is that all chambers vary in size. I like to have my dies set up to match my chamber/press/die combination.

Do take heed of the warning of using lube - otherwise the case might get stuck - not irreversible, but a royal pain in the posterior! Do get yourself a "stuck case remover" set, because one of these days it will happen to you... Don't overdo the lubing (lubedents), but watch it when you handle the case and size multiple times, case lube sometimes gets wiped off => stuck case *&^%$#@!

Headspace problem: if you push your shoulder back, the case will stretch at every firing, and eventually separate just above the web during firing. Danger!!! Hot gas release!!

- mike

21 June 2002, 03:32

<Jon in Dallas>

Thanks Mike, Pecos45 and everybody else!!! I appreciate it!!!

quote:
"smoke the neck and shoulder of the case" (i.e. over a match or a cigarette lighter).

I thought that's what it was but wasn't sure. It's a great idea!

I've already ruined three cases where I saw the shoulder was pushed back and also where the neck was pushing out just above the shoulder. Can't be too careful in this! Thanks everybody!

Anybody else got some household tips on reloading such as smoking the neck and shoulder with a match? Stuff that you don't see in the reloading manual!??

21 June 2002, 03:51

NoCAL

Jon,
Well about the only thing different I can add is instead of using a match I use a black permanant marker and blacken the entire neck and part of the shoulder. Let it dry and then run it up into the die. I adjust my die about a quarters width above the shellholder and then size until the black is removed from the neck almost down to the shoulder. I then try to chamber the round. As someone mentioned, they are a little tight to get in but I can live with that. The marker comes off with alcohol. It is also useful for marking seated bullets and checking to see that they don't hit the lands. I mark the bullet, drop it in the chamber (dummy round or safety on) and then slowly close the bolt. I pull the cartridge out very slowly and don't let the ejector force the nose of the bullet against any metal. In this way you can see lands marks on the bullet as concentric circles in the black. Then you know it needs to be seated deeper. I've only been reloading about 3 years and I know the concepts are hard to grasp at first so listen to everyone else here. They know what they're talking about. Get at least 4-5 manuals and read them like you'd read a novel at night before bed.

NoCAL

21 June 2002, 06:52

mho

quote:
Originally posted by NoCAL:
I mark the bullet, drop it in the chamber (dummy round or safety on) and then slowly close the bolt. I pull the cartridge out very slowly and don't let the ejector force the nose of the bullet against any metal. In this way you can see lands marks on the bullet as concentric circles in the black. Then you know it needs to be seated deeper.

Presto: instructions for how to seat a bullet matching the freebore of your particular rifle, Jon! None of this just "seating to standard" length anymore! :-) If done carefully, this should provide you with better accuracy - all things being equal.

But do remember to get rid of that pesky crimp! :-)

- mike