What is the general thought on the least amount of energy needed for a hunting bullet to ensure proper penetration and expansion.

I know that different bullet design take different amounts of energy to expand, so lets stay with traditional core-loc type bullets.

This is on white-tail and mule deer game.

Would you stay with about 1000# at impact +/- 50# or can you go lower?

quote:

Originally posted by Harold R. Stephens:
What is the general thought on the least amount of energy needed for a hunting bullet to ensure proper penetration and expansion.

I know that different bullet design take different amounts of energy to expand, so lets stay with traditional core-loc type bullets.

This is on white-tail and mule deer game.

Would you stay with about 1000# at impact +/- 50# or can you go lower?

This idea of the minimum amount of foot-pouinds it takes to do this or that is basically a crock! In Army wound-ballistics tests, it was established that an impact velocity of around 800 FPS is required to go completely through a human body.

Likewise, according to Hatcher's Notebook, 60 foot-pounds is the "requirement to produce a disabling wound". A 150-grain .30 caliber bullet would only have to be travelling 425 feet per second to have this much energy.

Now, whether a 150-grain .308" softpoint bullet travelling 425 feet per second expands or not, it would still be capable of inflicting such a wound. Chances are, it would not expand at all at that energy level, but expansion seems to vary depending on impact velocity, not kinetic energy. (For example, a 45-grain .224 expanding bullet will expand at the same, or even lower, impact velocity and hence energy level, than will a larger one of the same basic construction ......)

Do you need 1000 foot-pounds to kill deer? No. I have killed them quite handily with a .50-caliber, 180-grain round lead ball that was only travelling about 1100 FPS when it hit. This equates to 480 foot-pounds, about like a heavy load in the .45 Colt revolver cartridge......

Oh, and by the way-welcome! I think you will like these forums................

If I have a good shot and angle, 500ft/lb is my go by standard. I do take this ninto consideration as I hunt some deer with 22/250 and 223 centerfire.

I prefer at least 2000 fps at impact, but believe 2200 fps is better. Of course, if you are using a large low-velocity caliber to begin with, the rules are a bit different.

-Lou

I don't know if any other company does it, but Woodleigh has on their web sight a list of all their bullets and the velocity spread and which they are intended to operate.

I'd look at that, and would suggest that the Rem Corelok isn't far off the Woodleigh data. You can judge velocity, but you must compute energy from velocity. Kudude

Here is a chart where the author tested various 30 cal 180 gr bullets to how they acted at different velocities running from 1400 -3100 fps.
http://www.seahook.com/bestbullet.jpg

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I agree with ElDeguello. This theory is a crock of $hit. The Elmer Keith/Craig Boddington type state that a minimum of 2000 ft/lbs is necessary at impact for elk sized game and that a minimum of 1500 ft/lbs at impact is needed for deer size game.

Most bullets are made to open at a certain impact vel. check with the bulletmakers. Nosler Partition's are about 1800-1900 FPS, Accubonds less than that. Energy makes little difference it's penetration that kills in my book.

1500 lbs for deer???? I know of a lot of old timers who filled their food locker with deer and used only a 22 rf. But of course they could shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by Harold R. Stephens:
What is the general thought on the least amount of energy needed for a hunting bullet to ensure proper penetration and expansion.

I know that different bullet design take different amounts of energy to expand, so lets stay with traditional core-loc type bullets.

This is on white-tail and mule deer game.

Would you stay with about 1000# at impact +/- 50# or can you go lower?

Lots of good answers already, but I'll throw in my "amen."

Setting aside shot placement, bullet design is the largest variable. You focus your question on traditional core-loc type bullets, so I would write the bullet manufacturers and ask them what is the lowest velocity at which their bullets will reliably expand and use that as my "minimum" velocity.

I realize you asked about energy and not velocity, but if the bullet is moving fast enough at the point of impact to expand it is transfering a lethal dose of energy on a whitetail (assuming proper bullet placement, of course.)

You know over the years I've shot many old bathroom scales. I've yet to get a pound reading from any one of them, yet they all had holes clean thru 'em.
My stock answer remains as always: use a 30-06!

I've always thought those "minimum lethal foot pounds" was something dreamed up on a slow news day. I do think considering the performance window of the bullet you're using is important however.

My original premise on this subject was that if I had a minimum energy for a clean kill that this would help in determining maximmum range for a given load.

If my threshold was say 450# at impact then I could extrapilate the energy and drop that this would be at my maximum range.

That being said, with my .270 win a 130 gr. core-lock bullitt pushing 3060 muzzel velocity, that would put my maximum range at 750 yards with a velocity of about 1200 fps. This clearly is well out past my comfort level of shooting. I am working at shooting 300 yard ranges at this time.

Thanks for all your replys it was informative to say yhe least.

And Alf I have no idea what you said. Was that english??LOL

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Penetration depends on Momentum (Mass x Velocity). Bullet expansion and wound volume depend on Energy. So very much depends where you hit the animal.A few yeras back on "Shooters" a guy in Alaska reported geting five Deer with five shots from a 30 Carbine.
Good Luck!

quote:

Originally posted by Harold R. Stephens:
...And Alf I have no idea what you said. Was that english??LOL

Hey Harold, There is a reason for that "confusion factor", but no need for me to explain it, because you seem to have alf figured out.
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You might find the Gary Sciuchetti Bullet Test of interest. He compared 180gr Bullets of all the manufacturers he could get his hands on at that time.

It shows extremely well how the Bullet Designs relate to each other, typical expansion and weight retention at various velocities, which reflect quite well what a good many of us have experienced first-hand on-game with the same Bullet Designs.

Needless to say, a 30cal 180gr Bullet is going to have an excellent SD(good mass per caliber) and if sent to the Game with enough retained Velocity to "expand" the Bullet, it should perform well on Deer, Hogs and Black Bear - if it has the proper Design Envelope for Hunting.

Be sure to check out the old Remington RNs and how well they performed. Many of the latest whiz-bang designs just didn't do as well.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.