28 April 2001, 19:17
<Gard>
We don't know enough to tell the difference between "inexpensive" and "Cheap". While we do insist on the first, we don't want to get caught up in the second. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Also someone who has good basic equipment and is moving up to complex operations may find us a willing customer for the old stuff.
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Sarge,
Live your concience. Leave others to theirs.
quote:
Originally posted by Sarge:
Hi, I'm the new guy. I am here because I am gettintg ready to start reloading. Myself, my brother-in-law, and another hunting pard., are going together to start up a new hobby. We don't know anything except that I have done some reading and think I know enough to ask questions. That's about it. We want to start out in low dollar mode. Sarge/ Buy good equipment and you will never outgrow it! It would be hard to beat one of the complete kits being sold by RCBS, they are as good as it gets withoout stepping up to specialized equipment, as for dies,again RCBS or Redding Bushing type for more selective rifle accuracy reloading, FIRST on the list with the RCBS kit is a good reloading manual and then another one! most all the bulletand powder companies sell manuals and it is hard to find a bad one but two is the minimum for good safe reliable reloading and results, and as a plus the RCBS people are fantastic to deal with if you have a question or problem, Midway USA, and others have specials on the KITS and supplies, later special type tools if you advance to the next level are available from Sinclair International, both are good reliable sources of equipment and supplies and information, welcome to the reloading ranks and good luck and good shooting!!!We don't know enough to tell the difference between "inexpensive" and "Cheap". While we do insist on the first, we don't want to get caught up in the second. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Also someone who has good basic equipment and is moving up to complex operations may find us a willing customer for the old stuff.
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Sarge,
Live your concience. Leave others to theirs.
The lee is so affordably priced that its worth keeping around once you figure out what comprises the ideal setup for you. I've upgraded to a redding BR30 powder measure, and use a lyman turret press now, but still use the lee press, mainly for sizing cast bullets.
Anyhow, get the lee set, read their book, and get another loading manual or two.
RCBS is guaranteed for life. No questions asked. I just sent back a stand primer tool that I screwed up--MY fault. They sent me a new one free.
RCBS sent me the pistol die for my Uniflow powder measure--free.
This stuff will last forever. And it's like investing in a gun. It's every bit as precision as a fine firearm.
Someone remarked to me that Lee is like Ford/Chevy and RCBS is like a big ol' Buick. Now ya know ya can't get a Buick for what you'd pay for a Ford . . .
(Yeah, there are BMW's, Mercedes, and Porsches out there too . . . )
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PowderBurns Black Powder / Muzzle Loading Forum:
When I started out, I bought an RCBS master reloading kit from Midway (www.midwayusa.com). The kit gives you everything you need with a few exceptions. I found I needed a Tumbler (Midway), Caliper (Midway), Reloading manual for the powder you intend to use (Midway seeing a pattern here?), bullet puller (you'll need this eventually), primer pocket cleaner, and spray sizing lube (much easier than the lube pad).
As for dies, you mentioned a hunting buddy helping, so I assume you'll be loading for hunting/target shooting. I'm sure you know you need dies for each caliber. As for the brand, I have stuck with RCBS from the start. Not that there's anything wrong with the other manufacturers, but when RCBS says a lifetime guarentee, they mean it. I broke two decapping pins on two different dies in the same day. After calling them, I received all the guts for both dies at no charge.
Bottom line, if you're not looking at serious target shooting, any brand of dies will suit you well.
One more thing, if you decide to go with a kit, check the listing for the caliber pilots, etc. The RCBS kit I bought didn't come with a .338 trim pilot, maybe they do now. It's worth a look.
After a while, you'll need a chronograph, etc, and I'm sure the more advanced loaders will recommend more things, but what I have has gotten me by for quite a few years. Good luck reloading.
When I was in your shoes, I went out and bought some RCBS kit secondhand. I have been
very pleased with it and see no reason to change. I avoid Lee for most stuff simply
because I have heard so many mixed reports.
Having said that, I have never heard anybody
running down their dies which seem to be quality items. At the end of the day you can mix and match, but for the main stuff I would recommend RCBS.
Regards,
Pete
[This message has been edited by Pete E (edited 04-27-2001).]
I would also recommend spray-on lube, a bullet puller, a good pair of calipers, a primer tray, and a set of check weights for what ever type of scale you buy. As for dies, I mainly use Dillon, but I have loaded very accurate ammo with Lyman, RCBS and Lee dies.
I've been reloading approximately 3 months with a Lee Anniversary kit and dies. With very little effort (less than 150 rounds)I'm now achieving consistent overlapping groups at 100 metres in .22/250. I expect similar results when I start on .243 and .303.
Read the books, be very precise and you shouldn't go wrong.
Maybe that's it - I check weigh every powder measure I dispense, largely for peace of mind but for accuracy too - perhaps some of these guys don't want to put that amount of effort into it and so find working Lee gear just t-o-o much trouble?
Nothing's broken so I can't comment on after-sales service from Lee.
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Everyone has given you great advise and the people on this site are all very knowledgeable through experience. Like BIG_R stated look to Midway. www.midwayuse.com. You can buy it all over the net.
I will give you my, for what it's worth. The most popular press today is the RCBS Rockchucker. (There are many progressive presses but when starting out take you time.) The Rockchucker Master Kit is sold with most of what you need.
The Kit comes with the following:
Press
5 0 5 Scale
Uniflow powder measure
Speer Reloading Manual
Hex key set
Case lube kit
Powder funnel
Deburring tool
Loading block
Primer tray 2
Auto primer feed
Trim pro case trimmer
Leave the Auto primer feed in the box and buy a hand priming tool, RCBS makes a good one as does several other companies. With the hand priming tool you get a better feel for the seating of the primer.
I will give you a list of a few other things to get:
Dial caliper
Bullet puller and collets
Primer pocket cleaner
Powder trickler
Shell holders
Various reloading Manuals
As time goes on you will accumulate other thing that come in very handy.
Good luck and have fun.
Steve
Experiment with other brands as you become more knowledgeable.
Good luck and welcome.
A case tumbler is essential, although I just washed my brass for years. Vinegar, Dawn detergent, water, lemon juice, and a little salt does the job for cheap.
These days I don't tumble my .223 brass because I don't want to nick and work harden the necks. I wash the brass and clean by hand with a cloth.
All my pistol ammo gets tumbled.
Uniflow measure is pretty accurate. I weigh every fifth round unless I'm loading for target. Then I throw short and trickle the charge up to weight on a scale.
I like the RCBS hand primer. These provide a good "feel" for the primer seating in the case.
Case trimmer is necessary for bottle neck brass. I like the RCBS, but I think maybe the Lyman is a bit better design. I needed to use a socket hex driver and perm. LockTite on the screw holding the case holder to the frame on the RCBS. No problems now, but it kept coming loose.
I'm sold on RCBS customer service.
Sinclair and Redding are the Mercedes of this hobby.
Dillon 550 is great if you're turning out a zillion rounds for IPSC. I like to shoot off the bench and spend maybe 15 min. preparing each case for loading. Not in any hurry, just want gnat's ass accurate bug holes in the paper.
The Hodgdon Data Manual provides load data for several brands of powder. Lots and lots of load data available online these days.
You want a book that provides dimensional spec. for brass, OAL, etc. Most online data lacks this important feature.
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PowderBurns Black Powder / Muzzle Loading Forum:
Welcome to the club.
I bought my first reloading press in 1956; an RCBS Rockchucker. It's still putting out ammunition beyond my diminishing capabilities. That's not to say that I don't use other products; usually what I can find on the local dealer's shelves. Some might work a little different than others, but that's up to me to learn their idiosyncrasies.
As for all the rest, the above posts far exceed my meager offerings. But, just a little advice. Success is in the details. Don't ever scrimp on your own labor. It costs you nothing but time. Keep your equipment, components, and working area meticulously clean. If you screw up, don't hedge. Do it over.
The real satisfaction comes when you know you've done your best, and you only find one ragged hole in the target.
Good shooting.
Robert
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Growler
Go for the Lee Anniversary and a set of deluxe dies. This equipment turns out 1/2 MOA ammunition. As Gard suggests the money you save can go toward a decent scope.
Regards
Ray
IT ALMOST BETTER THN XEX.
ALL this equipement and each one has its own set of problems. I have had to make modifications to most of it..
BUY THAT LEE STARTER KIT. And when you grow out of it you can use it for something else.
Its a great accomplishment when that first Deer drops and you know it was one of your reloads.
good luck, Hivelosity
Welcome to the roller coaster! The best piece of advice anyone can give is - above all, have fun doing it!
Safe Shooting!
Steve Redgwell
303british.com
Welcome aboard! I think you'll find you have located by far the best bunch of shooters in cyberspace here, this is a great place.
Now regarding equipment, there have been some good remarks. My suggestion is to get the Lee Anniversary kit, for $70 delivered from midway, and a can of spray case lube. Some dial calipers are nice, but since I don't know what budget you are working with you can take a piece of sheet metal and carefully scribe the max and min sizes for a particular cartridge on it, then cut along the lines with a hacksaw and you have a max/min case length guage.
The bad thing about reloading with a group is that it is easy for the majority to bully the minority into chipping in and buying more equipment. Thats what happened with me and my brothers, we'd take turns convincing each other that we needed something else, then when you feel guilty making the others chip in and swear to yourself you're not going them to pressure them to do that again, they find something they want and start strong arming you! It is a vicious cycle.
I don't think anyone here has pointed out the theory that reloading saves you money is a load of crap, you still spent the same amount of money, you just shoot more!
My suggestion would be to buy the rockchucker master reloading kit, get a set of dial calipers from midway usa for $20, and buy Lee dies for the calibers you need. Lee die sets include shellholders and they're every bit as good as other brands. I quit using my redding 7mm stw dies and ordered some lee dies when the reddings gave me lube dented shoulders. Lee's collet dies and factory crimp dies are wonderful.
[This message has been edited by boltman (edited 05-06-2001).]
Safe Shooting!
Steve Redgwell
303british.com
No feathers ruffled. Both of the presses I broke were from stuck cases and I pulled too hard on the handle trying to remove them. Both presses broke in the same places, the base where the press bolts to the bench cracked in several places. The interesting thing is that they were bolted to a 3/4" plywood top which I would have expected to break before the press, but that didn't happen. I took the die with the stuck case that broke the last Lee press and screwed it into my Rockchucker when it arrived and the case came right out. I'm not anti-Lee, I like a lot of their stuff but just not their presses. A good press is the heart of your reloading setup.
You stated that RCBS is overpriced and I agree that a lot of it is. I've got a rockchucker that I bought for $75 and a set of RCBS scales I bought for $40 but the rest of my setup is other makes. I looked in my midway catalog and saw the lyman crusher II kit for around $130. It doesn't have the powder measure or case trimmer of the rockchucker kit but you really don't need a powder measure and I like the lee case trimmers better and they're cheap. That lyman kit for $130, calipers for $20, lee case trimmers for $8, and some lee dies for $20 and Sarge's in business. In any case I still don't like the lee presses, just get something with a good cast iron O-frame press.
[This message has been edited by Pete E (edited 05-06-2001).]
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Migra
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From my cold, dead hands!
Thanks Chuck!
On the other hand, I have never had a round loaded on the lee equipment fail to fire, be unsafe, or innacurate. You can load ammunition that is just as safe, and just as accurate on Lee equipment as more exspensive equipment.
I do have some specific beefs, the powder measure will utterly gum up and leak powder if you use ball powder like H110. It also isn't very accurate with stick powder. Interestingly, the most accurate ammo I've ever assembled and shot was assembled using a measured charge of H4350 from the lee measure that veried +/- 1/2 gr for a nominal 36 gr weight. Despite that, the ammo would put 3 shots inside a 1/2" square, and that from a contender handgun.
The scale, I haven't had the problems otheres have sighted. I do not weigh individual charges, as I feel that it is a waste of time for what I do. I did upgrade to a Redding BR powder measure, and just use the scale to keep an eye on charge weights.
The press, I use this mainly as a backup, as I found a lymann T-mag saves me alot of time, and works well enough for what I do. The press isn't nearly as strong as a rockchucker, so don't abuse it! If you want the best press, it isn't a rockchucker, for single stage the Co-ax is it. The lee press makes a find 2nd op press for pulling the occasional bullet (collet pullers are superior and safer then kinetic), sizing cast bullets, or whatever else.
No single starter set will be ideal for you, but the advantage of the lee set is you can get started for not alot of $, and find out what upgrades you'll want. If you can afford the RCBS at the get go, then go for it, if not, don't think that you won't be able to make good ammo on it, as that just ins't true.
I think the better comparison is a savage rifle to the other factory guns. The savage is just as accurate, if not more so to guns costing 2 times or more as much. Thats not to say I care for savages or would buy one, but don't discount them as junk, because they work fine for what they are.
It all depends on what you want to do. If you're just gonna load some .270's and .30-06's for hunting and casual plinking, go with the cheap Lee kit. Hell, buy it anyway - if you fall into the handloading swamp you can buy other stuff as you go along. Whatever you do, DO NOT buy an electronic scale unless you plan on weighting lots and lots of cases, they CAN have an edge there. But don't let anyone fool you that they are more accurate than a beam scale, 'cause they ain't - it's the other way around. I'll elaborate a little on mostly the Lee stuff below...
I started out with a Lee Anniversary kit and have since bought stuff from RCBS, Lyman, Forster and Redding (not counting the BR gizmos).
If you are to load big cartridges and/or form cases, the Lee press is a bit too weak. I have RCBS Rockchuckers for normal loading, my Lee is a decap-only press now since I bent it running .30-06 cases into a 6.5x55 FL die... Another wonderful press is the Forster Co-Ax, but it's expensive. The Rockchucker is what all other presses are compared to, and with good reason - it's a damn good and strong press.
The Perfect Powder measure is just that, perfect - if mine ever would stop throwing as good loads as it does now, I'll get another one. RCBS Uniflow is a piece of junk in comparison, I sent the first one back because there was no way I could get less than .5 gr ES on 40-50 gr loads with short grain powders like N 133 through N 150 - with MRP there was over a grain ES. The one I got in exchange was worse, I sold it at a loss and went back to the Lee which is boringly accurate.
The Lee hand-held primer seater is very good and often seen at BR shoots. Lee's powder scale is a bit sensitive to the powder's position in the pan, but it settles fast and has twice the accuracy (in terms of lever movement for X grains) of my RCBS 5-0-5 or 5-0-2 - they're case/bullet scales only for me.
Lee's primer pocket cleaner is very good and IMO better than the brush type. The case trimmer is the fastest and most accurate you could use, although you must work with a fixed length (can be adjusted with small shims though).
I'm not too fond of the Lee RGB dies, although I see no difference in function between them and Lyman/RCBS dies - I don't like them either. If you don't want to shell out for Forster or Redding dies, who are miles above the rest, go with Lee. The Collet dies (Lee's neck dies) are fascinating little creatures and have been used by more than one World Record BR shooter (in the long range events).
To sum my rant up: For "normal" re- and handloading, Lee tools are as good as or better than the "normal" offerings from RCBS, Lyman et compagnie. For serious competition and the ultimate in accuracy, other - often more expensive - tools are necessary.
-- Mats
A DL650, 550, Rockchucher.. could have been a picture of my bench - except yours is tidier.
I actually love the RCBS Rockchucker - got two just because I got one used for a good price in a car boot sale. I do not use Lee for much. Have a couple small items - including handpriming tool and some dies and they seem to work - but if possible in dies I always go for RCBS or Redding. Had some bad experiences with Lyman so I stay away from Lyman dies (one 223 with neck so loose the brass wouldn't hold the bullets - and a 9mm that sized the brass so the finished round looked like a coke bottle. Presses ok though, have a little handheld Lyman for traveling purposes - loaded thousands of .375 H&H on it.
Rgds.,
Peter