4000 fps 25-06 ...... say what ?

22 August 2012, 03:09

45-70 shooter

Ran across some loading data on the Barnes website where they were getting 3800+ with the new 80 gr .257 TTSX in a 24" barrel. They were using Hodgdon hybrid 100 that the burn rate is in the 4350/760/780 range. So I dragged down my Wyoming Centenial Browning high wall with the odd 1 in 13" twist and 28" barrel and thought maybe I can finally get a speed goat with this. 4350 was too warm got up to 3700. 760 and 780 would both exceed 3800. I had just picked up a can of Superperformance to see if it was as touted.
With this bullet in this rifle it does very well.
The 80 TTSX has so little bearing surface you can exceed "max" loads for regular bullets a lot. While a modern High Wall is as strong as any bolt gun, it does not have the extraction power of a Mauser style action. The load had to be moderated a bit to ensure "no hammer required" extraction/ejection.
Suffice to say that 2 more grains put it well over 4000 fps but required too much effort to pop out. The group was shot with one minute between shots with a Conquest 3-9 in 80 degree weather with a bit of mirage. The octagon barrel is long but not heavy and the browning trigger is reasonable at 3 pounds but no Canjar. I'd say the speed goats hanging out in my pasture could be in trouble.

Although this boy is a bit young

22 August 2012, 08:14

marshmandan

Nice....extreme velocity and accuracy

22 August 2012, 17:04

muygrande

Might want to give RL 17 a shot with that rifle/bullet!

22 August 2012, 21:05

45-70 shooter

RL 17 is too fast as it falls (on the burn rate chart) right with 4350. Already tried 22 and could not get above 3700. HSP also meters perfectly through my Lyman measures, RLs do not in Lyman, RCBS or Reddings. have to use my RCBS electic dispenser for all stick powders if +-1/10 is not acceptable. Just another proof that long barrels make more sense in almost all applications. (especially with the "shortest action" (a single shot). Now if this were just a 3 groove Nitrided 36" barrel !

The bottom one is the 25-06. (Swapped the Loopie for a Conquest as the Zeiss is better)

23 August 2012, 07:26

SmokinJ

What's the rifling twist on that 25-06 you shot the 4000 fps with?

23 August 2012, 20:44

45-70 shooter

Thought I had mentioned that. When I first bought it, I started with 100 gr bullets which made odd holes at 100 although 1" groups. At 200 the groups were 7" and keyholing was obvious. Hmmm ?
First step, measure twist. Hard to believe but: 1 in 13". Spoke with a well respected Browning special edition single shot collector and he told me "not unusual". His opinion was that Browning thought all these specials would be left NIB by collectors so any barrel blank was fine as long as they looked good and were safe. Owned many 25-06s since age 16, both factory and custom. Back then it was still a real wildcat and all were 1 in 10". 87 gr Sierra FBSPs and a compressed load of surplus 4831 (50 cents a pound) was the Woodchuck load of choice (also worked well on feral cats) back in upstate NY.
If it were 1 in 14" I'd guess they used a 250-3000 blank but 1 in 13" is just a mystery.
FYI the other two rifles are another WY Cent. rebored/rechambered to "modern" .411 40-82. It was like a 400 Whelen on steroids and was a sub MOA (3 shot) rifle. Sold to a chap in Australia.
Second was a 100th year Winchester 30-06. Nice rifle but a fellow in Canada wanted it more than I. Down to 2 highwalls now, the other being a twin to the 25-06 except no engraving, factory padded stock and 45-70. Lotsa fun with Black powder and cast bullets,

23 August 2012, 20:51

SmokinJ

quote:
Originally posted by 45-70 shooter:
Thought I had mentioned that. When I first bought it, I started with 100 gr bullets which made odd holes at 100 although 1" groups. At 200 the groups were 7" and keyholing was obvious. Hmmm ?
First step, measure twist. Hard to believe but: 1 in 13". Spoke with a well respected Browning special edition single shot collector and he told me "not unusual". His opinion was that Browning thought all these specials would be left NIB by collectors so any barrel blank was fine as long as they looked good and were safe. Owned many 25-06s since age 16, both factory and custom. Back then it was still a real wildcat and all were 1 in 10". 87 gr Sierra FBSPs and a compressed load of surplus 4831 (50 cents a pound) was the Woodchuck load of choice (also worked well on feral cats) back in upstate NY.
If it were 1 in 14" I'd guess they used a 22-250 blank but 1 in 13" is just a mystery.
FYI the other two rifles are another WY Cent. rebored/rechambered to "modern" .411 40-82. It was like a 400 Whelen on steroids and was a sub MOA (3 shot) rifle. Sold to a chap in Australia.
Second was a 100th year Winchester 30-06. Nice rifle but a fellow in Canada wanted it more than I. Down to 2 highwalls now, the other being a twin to the 25-06 except no engraving, factory padded stock and 45-70. Lotsa fun with Black powder and cast bullets,

Do you think you can hit that 4000 fps in a 10 twist rifle?

That sounds kind of crazy, what 25 caliber rifle would have a 13 twist normally??? Even more confusing is you said that if it was a 14 twist they would have used a 22-250 blank. So they are going to put a 25-06 chamber on a .224 caliber blank with a 14 twist?? I don't think so.

24 August 2012, 04:19

45-70 shooter

Of course you are correct. I should have said 250-3000 not 22-250.
Perhaps if the barrel were long enough, 3 groove, Nirided and you used a monometal bullet that would not come apart.
My custom 338 RUM (36" 3 groove Nitrided) will push 300 gr Bergers at 3000 fps which any "normal" ballistics program says is impossible.
The old rules are old when dealing with today's cutting edge technology. Staying supersonic is the edge in very long range shooting and I don't think anything shoulder fired will beat a 300 gr .338 Berger VLD starting out at 3000.

28 October 2012, 09:13

45-70 shooter

The results are in. My final load averaged 3997 fps. Dropped this goat trotting away at a angle at 230 yards. All those years of shooting sporting clays and a rifle built to be shot offhand (9 pounds, 28" bbl, forward weight bias and rifle butttplate). The 80 gr TTSX entered behind the last rib and exited the shoulder, wrecking everthing in between. Some day I'll recover another Barnes. Any other bullet that light (dictated by twist) never would have made it through the full paunch. Barnes rules !

In

Out

28 October 2012, 09:27

SR4759

28 October 2012, 23:27

45-70 shooter

Nice picture but rather doubt it is a 25-06 looks more like a Browning BPCR. I'll withold comment on quality of bench rest and technique used by shooter.

29 October 2012, 05:48

SR4759

quote:
Originally posted by 45-70 shooter:
Nice picture but rather doubt it is a 25-06 looks more like a Browning BPCR. I'll withold comment on quality of bench rest and technique used by shooter.

That was her first time to shoot off a bench rest or even shoot a center fire and she did really well with the aperture sights. The recoil produced requires a different technique due to the heavy recoil and slow barrel time.

About the bench - it is all that range has on the black powder range.
About the rest - it is a Hart heavy varmint and it is an excellent rest.

Some of the local bench rest shooters chuckle when I show up. They say when are you going to join us, you have better equipment than we do?

29 October 2012, 06:35

arkypete

My first 25-06 never shot the heavier bullets, 117-120. The lightest weight bullet I used was 100 grain Speer and that was used for long range plinking at groundhogs.
I converted that rifle to 375 Whelen and bought a Remington hoping to find accuracy out at 500 yards with 120 grain Sierras, no such luck.
What would be a good twist for 120 grain bullets?

Any help sure would be appreciated.

Jim

30 October 2012, 00:26

45-70 shooter

quote:
Originally posted by 45-70 shooter:
In my long love affair with the 25-06 (from age 16) every rifle but this one was 1 in 10"
Berger suggests 1 in 10 for their 115 VLD and it's l-o-n-g. The Barnes 115 is also long for weight (monometal) and they suggest 1 in 10.
IMHO your problem was not twist. I shot many 120 gr Speer hunting bullets at our 500 yard gong "back in the day". The rifle was a solid bottom FN action with a 26" Flaig Ace varmint weight (1 in 10) barrel, in a Herters target style stock, wearing a 16X 1.5" Unertl and a Canjar SST. Had no problem holding under 5" groups (@ 500) IF there were no wind or mirage. (that was in the mid 1960s').
Were I you, I would try the Bergers with Winchester brass, Federal magnum primers and:
4831 SSC
RL 22 & 25
W780
Hodgdon Super Performance
Hybrid 100V

Buying the Hornady billet concentricity measure and fix tool is also good as it really works.

Don't know what Remington you bought or how it shoots @ 100,200 & 300 with factory ammo.

Might be worth it to buy a box of Federal Premium
Sierra® GameKing® BTSP
Load No: P2506C
Caliber: 25-06 Rem.
Grains: 117 gr
Brand: Vital-Shok®

As that is an accurate load in almost any 25-06 with a 1 in 10"

If I were going out to buy a 25-06 for longer range shooting my choices would be a Tikka T3 Varmint or a Savage 11/111 Long Range Hunter.
They both have 5 star reputations for quality and accuracy. I would give the Savage a slight edge for having a 26" bbl, the accutrigger, "do it yourself" barrel swaps and probably costing less.

BUT an F Class savage in 6.5x284 would be a superior choice if starting with a blank paper.

My "slightly modified" F Class Savage (chuckle)